Point/Line Overhead

ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Is there a performance overhead associated with "superfluous" lines or points. Say for example I had three connected parallel faces such that the top line of each face joined together to form a straight line. Then I needed to create a single face with the same combined length, so I create a single line which spans all 3 of the previous lines. So now I have 4 lines, though the 4th covers the exact same distance as the previous 3, and I have 2 extra points which overlap each side of the two edge lines.

<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6250985/lines.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Should I avoid this as much as possible, is it extra work on the engine?

Comments

  • RemedyRemedy Join Date: 2011-06-16 Member: 104735Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Your explanation hurt my brain seriously... maybe rephrase what you're trying to ask.

    So far on my remake of eclipse I can have hundreds of individual faces in a corridor or room and the map runs (at this point) just as well if not better than some prop favored maps. So I wouldn't really worry about "superfluous" brush faces unless I start to worry. Also not all the faces are quadrangles many have added vertices for stitching purposes as I think your trying to address above.
  • Rudy.czRudy.cz Join Date: 2012-02-13 Member: 145410Members
    edited March 2012
    I think your concer here is, if to create a floor using one big face with one edge overlaping edges 1,2,3.

    Actually there is no problem in this approach, althrough it doesn't create "clean geometry". There are no performance issues with overlaping edges, but in future when you will try to redesign this area and start deleting, you will maybe encounter some redundant lines. If you don't want double vertexes, you can use vertex weld tool (in selecti tool, edit-> weld verticles)

    Also good tip for getting rid of redundant lines. In filter disable all element except planes, select all your geometry, add it to a layer and hide. All redundant lines will stay unhidden and you can delete them.
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    Best way to describe this is copying a square, and pasting it next to another square. So you have 8 total lines, 2 of which overlap. You would not have this if you used the line tool, you'd have 7 lines total and no overlap. So the question is, should we really be using the line tool?

    If you're going to map this way, you need to keep Edges visible in the perspective view because it's easy to leave stray lines everywhere.

    I too have wondered about the effect extra lines have on the game. I imagine they're not rendered by the engine, because with a mere line there is no polygon. However, the engine may be keeping track of the line, or something else weird, so I dunno.

    Me personally, I just copy every single face. I almost never use the line tool because I find it to be really clumsy and frustrating at times.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    I might not of understood clearly your problem. In a simple way is this what you are trying to do?

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/lines.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    There is no redundant lines nor points here, the larger face can have lines coming to him splitting one of his sides. It works well for me and I like everything as one connected mesh. It is more of a construction issue rather than a performance one.

    It is very quick to build up a mesh with the line tool though you need to be aware of the many rules of geometry as a mathematical discipline and be able sometimes to imagine a three dimensional mesh spawned from a two dimensional face.

    I had a little fun with the above mesh and did this in a few minutes using the line tool, to demonstrate what is possible.

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/lines2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    And ten minutes later, refining my grid, and can repeat the same process to get something even more detailed. Note that there are no duplicate lines/vertices. This is all one connected mesh.

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/lines3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    God I love the line tool and working with geometry! :D This shows a bit of my process in mapping. First I create a simple mesh, and I edit that mesh refining as the level develops.

    And then Texturing and lighting and props and all that good stuff :D
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Evil_bob1: Please post this in the pre-map thread. This is a great piece of information and really valuable. It is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to be contributed to the thread.

    I know you did some commentary on the discussion about detail geometry, but this tutorial would be amazing :)

    @OP, I was a extremist user of the extrude tool (and still use it too much, but not like before!) and now I use the line tool for the majority of my work. As the evil1 has described so well above, the line tool is really the best friend you can have. Because of my love of extrude I have a huge number of excess lines and vertices in my map.

    I believe you are talking about stitching with the line tool to make the extra faces. I have not heard of, or come across any issues yet related to the number of line/vertices/faces used in the map, so I don't think it will be an issue. The weld vertices tool is very good for tying things together, but makes editing a pain, so I would always save the release version separately from the editing version with welded vertices before releasing it.
  • Rudy.czRudy.cz Join Date: 2012-02-13 Member: 145410Members
    Actually I am using different approach. I weld verticles and delete redudant lines (with metod descibed earlier) all the time. I like to keep geometry clean, I dont like to work with "dirty" one :-) When I need to edit something, and its not possible with extrude or other tools, I just cut it (I mean ctrl-x), delete useless vertexes and paste it back. By doing that, it will became independent on adjacent geometry.
  • persoperso Join Date: 2003-02-19 Member: 13740Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Easier way to delete stray vertices and edges is to assign everything into a layer and hide the layer. The stray vertices and edges are still visible because it seems that you can't add them into a layer (only vertices and edges that are part of a face), and can be easily deleted. I don't know if this is common knowledge but decided to post here in case someone didn't know.
  • Rudy.czRudy.cz Join Date: 2012-02-13 Member: 145410Members
    I've already posted it here, but your explanation is better :-)
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1921444:date=Apr 3 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 3 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evil_bob1: Please post this in the pre-map thread. This is a great piece of information and really valuable. It is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to be contributed to the thread.

    I know you did some commentary on the discussion about detail geometry, but this tutorial would be amazing :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I am in the phase of preparing a series of tutorials. The first on scale, second on open-level design philosophy (which will cover layouts) and third on developing geometry (which will cover how I do things like this) from going to greybox to more complicated geometry. The idea is not to teach how to map, but give people some foundations on how to start their map effectively from what I have learned so they can then develop a map with their own sensitivity. All this based on using basic tools such as line and rectangle. If anybody has any input on this idea it is very welcome.

    I will probably base this tutorial on creating a simple 4tp map I have been thinking about, so I will probably cover things like texturing, lighting and entities also afterwards. I do not claim to be the best of mappers and this will not cover everything on needs to know, but I think this should help people in the early phases of their map and maybe even, using the ease of spark, creating first maps that have a nice gameplay potential.
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1921475:date=Apr 3 2012, 11:10 AM:name=perso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (perso @ Apr 3 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easier way to delete stray vertices and edges is to assign everything into a layer and hide the layer. The stray vertices and edges are still visible because it seems that you can't add them into a layer (only vertices and edges that are part of a face), and can be easily deleted. I don't know if this is common knowledge but decided to post here in case someone didn't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    sick! I did not know this!
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