Trouble there is that it'd basically make gorges mandatory for cyst expansion, possibly even better at it than the commander.
A hard cooldown on cyst placement for the gorge may be better, otherwise you could just cover the map in cysts and hydras right off the bat by spamming gorges.
It wouldn't make them mandatory if the comm can still place them more expensively as well, but it'd make them a lot more desirable as a primary means of expansion throughout the game. To be honest you'd only really need 1 or 2 gorges to spread infestation at the start of the game so I doubt you'd see everyone go gorge. (Though you might if they allow every gorge to place free hydras, which is an issue unrelated to the cyst placement) You'd get gorges and the khamm interacting much more closely. the khamm's ability to place cysts would then be reserved for fixing broken chains behind the lines, or placing them if no gorge is present. (Though the alien comm would need to have more p.res sinks than cysts, else there's still very reason for the comm not to be the primary source responsible for cyst expansion since he'd have a lot of p.res to spare anyway)
I for one would definitely have fun gorging at the start of the game, expanding the infestation and establishing a frontline with hydras and goowalls . Brings back that old NS 1 feel, where you're actually contributing quite significantly to the team's progress.
Oooooooooo, I'm really looking forward to this going into the game. Waiting around for resources as gorge is extremely boring, and getting killed before you have enough to place another hydra is infuriating. It also sucks to have to spend all of your res and have to wait until the game is half over to go fade.
This makes him a bit more like TF2's engineer. But there are a few things to consider about the TF2 engineer:
1) his structures disappear when he changes class
2) his structures disappear when he leaves the game
if 1.) isn't followed, everyone will (at least should) go gorge, build, then re-skulk
if 2.) isn't followed, an unfair advantage can be gained by constantly rejoining the server and rebuilding, or just by a lot of new people coming in and gorging as others leave
Unfortunately if 2.) is followed, it's probably going to break cyst chains every time a gorge drops.
Suggestion: let cysts continue to cost res, be uncapped, and persist when player leaves game have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above
Maybe allow the Alien Comm. to upgrade a Mini-Cyst to a Cyst by paying the same amount of PRes? That way, Gorges can set-up temporary yet fragile chains (which pops if he dies), and the Comm. can still assert control over semi-permanent infestation spread, and the no-res building system is kept consistent.
Edit: Xarius already had this idea, d'oh didn't read :P
Really not sure this is a good idea. Aliens can already expand and protect very easily compared to marines. I foresee this making it much, much easier to be greedy as aliens and take the map as soon as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1919464:date=Mar 29 2012, 11:45 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Mar 29 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggestion: let cysts continue to cost res, be uncapped, and persist when player leaves game have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming rule 1 (change class) would include a death resulting in a new skulk.
The downside to this is that it's going to make Gorges even more hesitant to get anywhere near the front lines (to heal/harass). If I spent a bunch of time building important structures, am I going to go anywhere that's not safe and risk losing everything I made? Probably not. You're going to get more bored Gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=1919477:date=Mar 29 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Gadx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gadx @ Mar 29 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really not sure this is a good idea. Aliens can already expand and protect very easily compared to marines. I foresee this making it much, much easier to be greedy as aliens and take the map as soon as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, though this could easily be countered by increasing the build time for gorge structures. This would make building them in aggressively advanced positions extremely risky, since a solo gorge with an unbuilt structure is usually no match for a marine. Would also make it feel very rewarding to gorges that pull it off successfully.
Marines should get something similar to counter this. Aliens now have free turrets that scale well with the number of players . Marines do not, and their turrets don't scale with player number. It does seem hard for marines to establish territory...and turrets are TRES hogs that are not very viable in more competitive matches and when there are more players per side. Maybe make it so that the the first couple turrets are free....a free turret for every 2 players on the marine side. Something like that. It may be a bit unintuitive and non-elegant, but F it. Maybe make two turret icons on the commander UI to make this distinction obvious. One is the free turret and the other the priced turret. Free turrets gray out once the cap is reached.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Marine deployed turrets would be fun although I'd still put them for the above 40 p.res mark so they wouldn't be spammed. Turrets are a little too beefy to be free.
<!--quoteo(post=1919495:date=Mar 29 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Gorge Costanza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Costanza @ Mar 29 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm assuming rule 1 (change class) would include a death resulting in a new skulk.
The downside to this is that it's going to make Gorges even more hesitant to get anywhere near the front lines (to heal/harass). If I spent a bunch of time building important structures, am I going to go anywhere that's not safe and risk losing everything I made? Probably not. You're going to get more bored Gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
d'oh, good point, that didn't even occur to me. I don't really care for the idea of all of my structures dying when I die either, but if it's between that and spending the game waiting for 10 res, I might still prefer the former. At least I know I'll be able to rebuild them right away when I respawn.
only alternatives I can think of are a bit more complicated than I would prefer:
1.) on death, give gorge the option to respawn as gorge (or start gestating right away) for 10 res 2.) have gorge structures gradually die (and/or become inactive) when gorge dies. if he respawns and re-gorges they stop dying (and/or reactivate).
regardless, I think I'd like cysts to stay on the current model and structures on the new.
<!--quoteo(post=1919497:date=Mar 29 2012, 02:32 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Mar 29 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens now have free turrets that scale well with the number of players . Marines do not, and their turrets don't scale with player number.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not free at all. building turrets doesn't make marines slow and fat. Not to mention the 10 res it costs to gorge.
If we're going to see a max number of hydras/hydras that die when you ungorge, I'd like to see the OPTION to spend pres to make them permanent. You'd have your 5 or whatever temporary hydras up, but if you wanted to leave a couple in one spot and move to your next site, you could spend 10 (or whatever) on them and they'd become permahydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1919497:date=Mar 29 2012, 08:32 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Mar 29 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines should get something similar to counter this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could do it like hand grenades worked in NS1 - a one-time upgrade by the commander, then every marine got 2 each life. Except instead of 2 grenades it'd be 1 mine, I guess?
<!--quoteo(post=1919435:date=Mar 29 2012, 06:58 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 29 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wouldn't make them mandatory if the comm can still place them more expensively as well, but it'd make them a lot more desirable as a primary means of expansion throughout the game. To be honest you'd only really need 1 or 2 gorges to spread infestation at the start of the game so I doubt you'd see everyone go gorge. (Though you might if they allow every gorge to place free hydras, which is an issue unrelated to the cyst placement) You'd get gorges and the khamm interacting much more closely. the khamm's ability to place cysts would then be reserved for fixing broken chains behind the lines, or placing them if no gorge is present. (Though the alien comm would need to have more p.res sinks than cysts, else there's still very reason for the comm not to be the primary source responsible for cyst expansion since he'd have a lot of p.res to spare anyway)
I for one would definitely have fun gorging at the start of the game, expanding the infestation and establishing a frontline with hydras and goowalls . Brings back that old NS 1 feel, where you're actually contributing quite significantly to the team's progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either gorges would be able to spread cysts obscenely fast, or commanders would have to do it extremely slow on their own, either way gorges would be mandatory.
I don't really think that completely gimping the comm's ability to place the one thing he needs to do anything else in the game makes sense, when you could instead just make gorges very slow to spread it, as they have other things they can be doing. They have the option of dropping a cyst out of connection and manually healing it, or working off an existing infestation patch, or waiting for infestation to spread itself (once that's in) or just go around healing players and spitting at marines.
I think making it so gorges can build the same size cysts cheaper than the comm would be a fair compromise, i.e the comm can still do it fast enough (like currently) but if gorges do it he could spend the p.res elsewhere. Or alternatively, if he does it and no one gorges, those players who would normally have gorged can be on the frontline to apply extra pressure and save for higher lifeforms instead. It actually increases the strategic OPTIONS for alien players and makes games more dynamic, I don't see how that would possibly be a bad thing. Everybody wins and the gorges and comms would probably work closer together.
Currently gorges cysting is pointless at 3 p.res per for such a small area of infestation, even though it's actually FUN, unlike doing it as a comm.
<!--quoteo(post=1919172:date=Mar 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Mar 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->babbler nest building for gorge please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would be great. move babblers from crags and give babbler nest to gorge aswell, 1 per hive? this would be awesome. along with the other changes. don't like the idea of your buildings disappearing when you die either, that would be terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1919464:date=Mar 29 2012, 01:45 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Mar 29 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oooooooooo, I'm really looking forward to this going into the game. Waiting around for resources as gorge is extremely boring, and getting killed before you have enough to place another hydra is infuriating. It also sucks to have to spend all of your res and have to wait until the game is half over to go fade.
This makes him a bit more like TF2's engineer. But there are a few things to consider about the TF2 engineer:
1) his structures disappear when he changes class
2) his structures disappear when he leaves the game
if 1.) isn't followed, everyone will (at least should) go gorge, build, then re-skulk
if 2.) isn't followed, an unfair advantage can be gained by constantly rejoining the server and rebuilding, or just by a lot of new people coming in and gorging as others leave
Unfortunately if 2.) is followed, it's probably going to break cyst chains every time a gorge drops.
Suggestion: let cysts continue to cost res, be uncapped, and persist when player leaves game have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well #2 definitively should be followed. Not sure how #1 would be handled, since dying as a gorge will pop you out as a skulk even if you intend to just go gorge again.
Maybe all gorge structures become 'disconnected' and slowly die, hopefully live long enough he can get to them (or another gorge can heal them).
Comments
A hard cooldown on cyst placement for the gorge may be better, otherwise you could just cover the map in cysts and hydras right off the bat by spamming gorges.
I for one would definitely have fun gorging at the start of the game, expanding the infestation and establishing a frontline with hydras and goowalls . Brings back that old NS 1 feel, where you're actually contributing quite significantly to the team's progress.
This makes him a bit more like TF2's engineer. But there are a few things to consider about the TF2 engineer:
1) his structures disappear when he changes class
2) his structures disappear when he leaves the game
if 1.) isn't followed, everyone will (at least should) go gorge, build, then re-skulk
if 2.) isn't followed, an unfair advantage can be gained by constantly rejoining the server and rebuilding, or just by a lot of new people coming in and gorging as others leave
Unfortunately if 2.) is followed, it's probably going to break cyst chains every time a gorge drops.
Suggestion: let cysts continue to cost res, be uncapped, and persist when player leaves game
have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above
Edit: Xarius already had this idea, d'oh didn't read :P
have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming rule 1 (change class) would include a death resulting in a new skulk.
The downside to this is that it's going to make Gorges even more hesitant to get anywhere near the front lines (to heal/harass). If I spent a bunch of time building important structures, am I going to go anywhere that's not safe and risk losing everything I made? Probably not. You're going to get more bored Gorges.
True enough, though this could easily be countered by increasing the build time for gorge structures. This would make building them in aggressively advanced positions extremely risky, since a solo gorge with an unbuilt structure is usually no match for a marine. Would also make it feel very rewarding to gorges that pull it off successfully.
The downside to this is that it's going to make Gorges even more hesitant to get anywhere near the front lines (to heal/harass). If I spent a bunch of time building important structures, am I going to go anywhere that's not safe and risk losing everything I made? Probably not. You're going to get more bored Gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
d'oh, good point, that didn't even occur to me. I don't really care for the idea of all of my structures dying when I die either, but if it's between that and spending the game waiting for 10 res, I might still prefer the former. At least I know I'll be able to rebuild them right away when I respawn.
only alternatives I can think of are a bit more complicated than I would prefer:
1.) on death, give gorge the option to respawn as gorge (or start gestating right away) for 10 res
2.) have gorge structures gradually die (and/or become inactive) when gorge dies. if he respawns and re-gorges they stop dying (and/or reactivate).
regardless, I think I'd like cysts to stay on the current model and structures on the new.
Not free at all. building turrets doesn't make marines slow and fat. Not to mention the 10 res it costs to gorge.
Could do it like hand grenades worked in NS1 - a one-time upgrade by the commander, then every marine got 2 each life. Except instead of 2 grenades it'd be 1 mine, I guess?
I for one would definitely have fun gorging at the start of the game, expanding the infestation and establishing a frontline with hydras and goowalls . Brings back that old NS 1 feel, where you're actually contributing quite significantly to the team's progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either gorges would be able to spread cysts obscenely fast, or commanders would have to do it extremely slow on their own, either way gorges would be mandatory.
I don't really think that completely gimping the comm's ability to place the one thing he needs to do anything else in the game makes sense, when you could instead just make gorges very slow to spread it, as they have other things they can be doing. They have the option of dropping a cyst out of connection and manually healing it, or working off an existing infestation patch, or waiting for infestation to spread itself (once that's in) or just go around healing players and spitting at marines.
Currently gorges cysting is pointless at 3 p.res per for such a small area of infestation, even though it's actually FUN, unlike doing it as a comm.
this would be great. move babblers from crags and give babbler nest to gorge aswell, 1 per hive? this would be awesome. along with the other changes. don't like the idea of your buildings disappearing when you die either, that would be terrible.
This makes him a bit more like TF2's engineer. But there are a few things to consider about the TF2 engineer:
1) his structures disappear when he changes class
2) his structures disappear when he leaves the game
if 1.) isn't followed, everyone will (at least should) go gorge, build, then re-skulk
if 2.) isn't followed, an unfair advantage can be gained by constantly rejoining the server and rebuilding, or just by a lot of new people coming in and gorging as others leave
Unfortunately if 2.) is followed, it's probably going to break cyst chains every time a gorge drops.
Suggestion: let cysts continue to cost res, be uncapped, and persist when player leaves game
have all other structures follow the new model and follow rules 1.) and 2.) above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well #2 definitively should be followed. Not sure how #1 would be handled, since dying as a gorge will pop you out as a skulk even if you intend to just go gorge again.
Maybe all gorge structures become 'disconnected' and slowly die, hopefully live long enough he can get to them (or another gorge can heal them).