New material system?

MachinasterMachinaster Join Date: 2007-05-31 Member: 61074Members
edited March 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
I would have put this in the twitter discussion thread, but I wanted to pull away from it being part of just twitter discussion.

What exactly is the material system, and what is the new one going in?
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Comments

  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Generally the material system is the system which tells the game how to render and define textures, or more correctly, materials, within the game world.

    It's what turns a bunch of bitmaps into a complex multi-shadered material which looks good in game.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    So given the hilarious ghost rine bug following the material system tweet, does the new system allow transparency?
  • PerestroikaPerestroika Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111955Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <img src="http://a.yfrog.com/img860/7205/t6qcy.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    lol
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    The ghostrine seems to be a big hint toward transparency being a sub-feature of the material system. This is pure speculation.
  • TremanNTremanN Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8471Members
    Hilarious? Or horrifying? I think the ghosts from NS1 are trying to tell us something.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Does this mean another dip in performance or increase? Im very much out of my depth here.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1918813:date=Mar 28 2012, 01:59 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 28 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does this mean another dip in performance or increase? Im very much out of my depth here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as I know they currently hack transparency in using some other system, if the new system can handle it properly, might mean a performance increase.

    Or it might mean a reduction due to the system being new and needing more testing and tweaking until it works properly.

    Basically it doesn't mean either for definite.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    Dammit Charlie, it's it bad enuf I had to stumble across them in the Editor Summit readyroom. Only to see it on the forums once more.

    *hides in a corner*



    SparkE performance has increased a whole bunch in the internal build. And you can now see lighting as ingame, it will only get faster, so says the Max!
  • ubikjamubikjam Join Date: 2011-10-04 Member: 125618Members
    If this is a new transparancy expect all sorts of things to look very different next build, drifters, eggs all alien buildings are supposed use lots of transparency to get their aquatic look.

    It will prob increase the gfx overhead but as performance is currently cpu limited i wouldn't worry too much about the perf hit.

    "This could be huge!"
  • TinCanTinCan Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Members
    I'm guessing any performance hit will depend on my GPU limitations instead of my CPU limitations for a change.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Very cool - does this mean all the planned transparency effects on structures etc are coming in next patch?
  • LuitjensLuitjens Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73034Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2012
    this ... is <i>PHANTASMAL</i> !!!



    ...water?
  • MachinasterMachinaster Join Date: 2007-05-31 Member: 61074Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1918805:date=Mar 27 2012, 05:51 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 27 2012, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally the material system is the system which tells the game how to render and define textures, or more correctly, materials, within the game world.

    It's what turns a bunch of bitmaps into a complex multi-shadered material which looks good in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Thanks!
  • MurphyIdiotMurphyIdiot NS2 programmer Join Date: 2008-04-17 Member: 64095Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1918840:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:37 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 27 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very cool - does this mean all the planned transparency effects on structures etc are coming in next patch?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No. The transparency you see there is just sorta a mistake. That is why the triangles are not being rendered in the correct depth (popping eyes, woah).

    We may take advantage of this mistake for ghost structure placement in the short term but proper transparency is still a bit off. The new material system will be featured in the new temporary nano shield effect that will be in the next patch.

    As others have said, it will simply allow us to have new visual effects in the game. Mostly on structures and players. It should not impact the performance negatively although there may be some small issues in the next patch or two while we work out the details with specific graphics cards.
  • slayer20slayer20 Killed a man once. Join Date: 2007-12-13 Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I demand to see a ghost marine haunt maps now.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    Thanks for the explanation Murphy
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    I want smooth groups :D
  • croncron Join Date: 2010-06-21 Member: 72122Members
    Will this new material system feature a visual representation of the structure of the material with nodes like in the UE3 and CE3? Almost like a visual scripting language.
    Quick example of the <a href="http://waylon-art.com/LearningUnreal/UE3-11-MaterialBasics.htm" target="_blank">Unreal Engine 3 material editor</a>.

    I guess since you just started working on the new system you will be working on the technical aspect, the render pipeline and buffer integration, exclusively – but are there plans for an advanced material editor inside spark at a later point?

    Thanks.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1918957:date=Mar 28 2012, 06:44 AM:name=cron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cron @ Mar 28 2012, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will this new material system feature a visual representation of the structure of the material with nodes like in the UE3 and CE3? Almost like a visual scripting language.
    Quick example of the <a href="http://waylon-art.com/LearningUnreal/UE3-11-MaterialBasics.htm" target="_blank">Unreal Engine 3 material editor</a>.

    I guess since you just started working on the new system you will be working on the technical aspect, the render pipeline and buffer integration, exclusively – but are there plans for an advanced material editor inside spark at a later point?

    Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Maybe. The underlying system is very similar to the Unreal one, but there isn't a tool front end to it. Someone in the community could build one though, if they felt motivated.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited March 2012
    At least some sort of online visualisation tool would be nice, I seem to remember that the engine can hot-load materials so I suppose you do already have one, to a degree, but working with source is a pain in the neck when you have to reload the game every time you tweak a parameter in the vmt.

    A visual frontend is nice, but I would imagine once you know how the materials work you could make do without one easily enough.
  • croncron Join Date: 2010-06-21 Member: 72122Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1918974:date=Mar 28 2012, 03:48 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Mar 28 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe. The underlying system is very similar to the Unreal one, but there isn't a tool front end to it. Someone in the community could build one though, if they felt motivated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Very nice, thanks for the reply. If the Spark editor can be modded like the game then this sounds like a good opportunity to finally get into Lua.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1918978:date=Mar 28 2012, 07:51 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 28 2012, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least some sort of online visualisation tool would be nice, I seem to remember that the engine can hot-load materials so I suppose you do already have one, to a degree, but working with source is a pain in the neck when you have to reload the game every time you tweak a parameter in the vmt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have a few shaders I'm going to make for PAX. I'm planning on doing a livestream when I do it, so you can see how it works.
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    yay for transparent jellydrifters!
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
    No MAX at PAX?
    No MAX at PAX?

    I do not like No MAX at PAX.

    i am psyched about new material system though.
  • LuitjensLuitjens Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73034Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1919010:date=Mar 28 2012, 10:56 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Mar 28 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a few shaders I'm going to make for PAX. I'm planning on doing a livestream when I do it, so you can see how it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Nice! I'd like to see that
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1919047:date=Mar 29 2012, 04:49 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Mar 29 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No MAX at PAX?
    No MAX at PAX?

    I do not like No MAX at PAX.

    i am psyched about new material system though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Max will most definitely be at PAX. He is our main attraction. Our booth basically consists of Max standing on a table, with the crowds bowing down before him.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1918821:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:11 PM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ Mar 27 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will prob increase the gfx overhead but as performance is currently cpu limited i wouldn't worry too much about the perf hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Transparency in a deferred renderer is kind of hacky; especially if you are limited to DX9. Depending on how you implement it, it is not inconcievable that it could use quite a bit of CPU.

    E.g. one way you could do it is to render all opaque objects with the deferred renderer, then guess maybe 4 of the most contributing light sources for each transparent object and render them with forward rendering using the chosen lights.
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1919010:date=Mar 28 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Mar 28 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a few shaders I'm going to make for PAX. I'm planning on doing a livestream when I do it, so you can see how it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Please do this, and encode it for Youtube. I'm very interested in this!
  • croncron Join Date: 2010-06-21 Member: 72122Members
    edited March 2012
    //edit: nevermind.
  • kababkabab Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
    I'd imagine this is a big step towards better infestation?
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