Balance issues
Wilson
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
Hey, I think there are some problems with balance at the moment, maybe I am just bad, post comments:
<b>1. The time it takes for a marine to kill an alien is much longer than for the alien to kill him.</b>
Marine weapons can't fire fast enough or do enough damage to compete with the attack speed of aliens. I don't know why but it seems to take 30 bullets to kill a skulk, then the reload time takes ages (compared to the time it takes for an alien to attack you). Fades can kill you in 2 hits and close the distance instantly. Even with perfect aim with the LMG you are dead every time against any decent fade.
<b>2. There is too much down time for marines (armour welding, reloading, building etc.):</b>
On aliens you can heal both health and armour very quickly. On marines, armour is soooo important (as 1 extra hit from a skulk can be life or death) and yet it is a huge hassle to get a welder and get back to full armour easily and quickly. Relying on your team to weld you all the time is a huge pain. You end up with marines camping forward armouries cause if they stray away they can't heal armour and die easy.
Reload times are long, compared with aliens who have minimal down time due to most attacks not using much energy. I think the LMG reload time could be okay if the damage it dealt was increased, it just seems like you are constantly reloading after every kill.
<b>3. Certain 1on1 situations are unfair:</b>
The way I feel is that if I run around the corner and see an alien, I need to either: 1. Be able to engage in combat with a reasonable chance of winning against a similar skilled player, or 2. Be able to run away and choose not to engage at that moment. (waiting for more team mates or getting a better gun or getting myself in a better position to engage or ambush)
If I can't do either of these then it is fundamentally unfair.
The way I think the game is supposed to be is that the aliens are the ones who can run from battle (perhaps with the exception of the onos) and choose when to engage, that means that the marines must be able to have a reasonable chance of winning in combat against them. The problem is, they don't.
Fighting a fade on a 1on1 situation will lead to death almost every time for the marine player. They can't run away and choose to engage later and they also can't fight, so they are just screwed. It's fine if you want the fade to be stronger than 1 marine, but that means the marine must be able to choose to run away. If he can't then he has no viable option apart from to hope that the enemy makes a mistake.
<b>1. The time it takes for a marine to kill an alien is much longer than for the alien to kill him.</b>
Marine weapons can't fire fast enough or do enough damage to compete with the attack speed of aliens. I don't know why but it seems to take 30 bullets to kill a skulk, then the reload time takes ages (compared to the time it takes for an alien to attack you). Fades can kill you in 2 hits and close the distance instantly. Even with perfect aim with the LMG you are dead every time against any decent fade.
<b>2. There is too much down time for marines (armour welding, reloading, building etc.):</b>
On aliens you can heal both health and armour very quickly. On marines, armour is soooo important (as 1 extra hit from a skulk can be life or death) and yet it is a huge hassle to get a welder and get back to full armour easily and quickly. Relying on your team to weld you all the time is a huge pain. You end up with marines camping forward armouries cause if they stray away they can't heal armour and die easy.
Reload times are long, compared with aliens who have minimal down time due to most attacks not using much energy. I think the LMG reload time could be okay if the damage it dealt was increased, it just seems like you are constantly reloading after every kill.
<b>3. Certain 1on1 situations are unfair:</b>
The way I feel is that if I run around the corner and see an alien, I need to either: 1. Be able to engage in combat with a reasonable chance of winning against a similar skilled player, or 2. Be able to run away and choose not to engage at that moment. (waiting for more team mates or getting a better gun or getting myself in a better position to engage or ambush)
If I can't do either of these then it is fundamentally unfair.
The way I think the game is supposed to be is that the aliens are the ones who can run from battle (perhaps with the exception of the onos) and choose when to engage, that means that the marines must be able to have a reasonable chance of winning in combat against them. The problem is, they don't.
Fighting a fade on a 1on1 situation will lead to death almost every time for the marine player. They can't run away and choose to engage later and they also can't fight, so they are just screwed. It's fine if you want the fade to be stronger than 1 marine, but that means the marine must be able to choose to run away. If he can't then he has no viable option apart from to hope that the enemy makes a mistake.
Comments
I agree with RoF for the shotgun only. Seems a little slow to me and need a speed increase of .2 seconds or more.
As for the one on one you shouldnt be alone as a marine period. Now if you are a lone marine and you run across a skulk at a distance and said skulk charges, you should be able to win 90% of the time (skill of aim, lag, and alien movement aside). Other than that you are dead meat unless you greatly out skill your prey.
Lastly the marines have always been forced to have more team play due to their lack of mobility. Welding teammates is crucial and rarely seen in pubs. Comm can heal you but as you have stated without armor you are as good as dead. Teamwork ftw.
2. Aliens stack badly, while marines stack exceedingly well. That is to say, take a skulk and you have 1 skulks worth of potential, 5 skulks gives you 5 skulks worth of potential. 5 marines on the other hand is far greater than simply multiplying 1 marine by 5. Because they are able to effectively cover an entire area with fire, marines stack incredibly well. The balance to this is that marines can steadily be worn down. You can launch wave after wave of unsuccessful attack against a marine group, eventually they will be worn down to nothing, unless reinforced.
3. This game is not balanced around 1v1 encounters, it is balanced around marine vs alien matches. A marine vs an onos is not balanced, and is not for fun for the marine, but that's the way it goes. The option of running away is only required when their is a punishment for dying. In NS, for all intents and purposes, there is not. You can die as many times as you want, doesn't mean you are losing anything for your team. Similarly, a player can kill as many marines as he wants, doesn't mean he is necessarily winning the game.
There is a punishment for dying - losing weapons and equipment you purchased with pres. Also in many situations you lose map control, RTs get destroyed, PGs get camped etc.
I also think that even if there was zero punishment for dying that doesn't mean that dying lots isn't something to worry about. Getting killed over and over and feeling helpless is frustrating for the player.
I understand that it is a team game, but there still has to be some form of fairness between the individual players. If 2 skulks always bet 1 marine then it would be frustrating for players as soon as they saw a group of skulks come around the corner.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>2. There is too much down time for marines (armour welding, reloading, building etc.):</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Healing from an armoury is faster than any alien healing source and also restores your armour, not sure where you got the welder requirement from. Not like aliens can heal away from base without outside help either.
Reloading encourages you to aim carefully rather than empty your clip as fast as you can (I'm guilty myself).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>3. Certain 1on1 situations are unfair:</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Here's how the balance works out:
1 skulk vs 1 marine, skulk wins.
2v2, it's a tie.
3v3, marines win.
This is because A) ranged weapons are much better suited for supporting teammates than melee
B) if 1v1 was balanced to be an even fight, skulks would get slaughtered <i>en masse</i> on any higher skill levels (not necessarily competitive) where people actually work together.
Requiring a forward armoury promotes camping it rather than pushing out into the map.
About the 2 skulks, it's like in cs when you have an ak and your opponent has an awp, that doesn't mean he wins every time. It comes down to how well you play, he might have a small advantage but it's primarily the players ability that determines the outcome. If certain combat situations almost always go a certain way then I don't think it's balanced.
1.
It takes the exact same time for a skulk to kill a lvl 0 marine or for the marine to kill the skulk, exact 0,5s.
If it takes more shots to kill the skulk is either lag/tickrate or you missed some. Burst fire helps alot.
Normaly its 0,5s.
2.
Marines on armory heal armor and HP, like aliens at crags/hives/gorge.
Also you have a riflebutt, pistol and axe. Use them and don't reload after each kill.
Also marines can be healed by meds and protected by shields.
Marines can be healed anywhere anytime, but aliens don't, the need to get back to heal.
3.
Unfair 1on1? Is it unfair that a fast 50 res alien can kill a lone marine that only has LMG and armor 0?
You compare NS2 all the time with CS or CS:GO.... a pure FPS where everybody has the same health, movement, etc but with different guns. Where (almost) only aim counts. In CS you can deside to atack or not, because you are as fast as your enemy.
In NS2 almost all aliens are much faster than any marine. So if a alien sees a marine flee he wilchase him, because he is faster and the marine is dumb enough to turn his back to the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade can close the distance faster than I can shoot him. Then he can 2 swipe me faster than I can kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So try to walk in a group, but not as a clister, spread out and always dodge the first hit from the fade (you can almost always evade the first hit, atleast I can). Cyrcle strafe is the clue.
Fade can only 2 hit you if you have armor 0! So if you have armor 0 and fades apear its the coms fault. Also Frenzy has gone so every hit hurts now.
And my best tipp, if a fade always has the same esxaperout, wait there and get him while he flees.
Btw never saw so many fades die like in this build (even the best fades can now die pretty quick)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Requiring a forward armoury promotes camping it rather than pushing out into the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So what would you do, design-wise? Regenerate armour and health as soon as each fight is over?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If certain combat situations almost always go a certain way then I don't think it's balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You mean it's not an even fight. Balance is for how often each team wins, not individual fights. Otherwise you'd have dumb situations like one unupgraded marine being equal to one onos being equal to one fully upgraded marine.
True that haha
I wish the game had "Hit Ratio" on stats so you can see his aim :)
You compare NS2 all the time with CS or CS:GO.... a pure FPS where everybody has the same health, movement, etc but with different guns. Where (almost) only aim counts. In CS you can deside to atack or not, because you are as fast as your enemy.
In NS2 almost all aliens are much faster than any marine. So if a alien sees a marine flee he wilchase him, because he is faster and the marine is dumb enough to turn his back to the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's unfair and not fun if the marine has no chance. I can compare it with other games as well. In TF2 you have a heavy who is more powerful and has more HP than a scout, but the scout can choose to run away and dodge with his fast movement, so it's balanced. If the heavy was faster than the scout it would be unfair.
In L4D you have a tank that is like a super zombie that can incap you in a few hits, but it is slower than a survivor so you can outrun him. If the tank was faster than a survivor then it would be game over any time a decent player got to play the tank.
It's fine to have aliens that are powerful but the marine still needs to have a viable option available. Perhaps you are right and it is the coms fault for not researching armour etc.
I suspect the LMG will get a decent buff sometime in the next few months (maybe because hit reg and server performance will improve) as well as fades continuing to get nerfed.
lol what does that even mean
<b>2. There is too much down time for marines (armour welding, reloading, building etc.):</b>
<b>3. Certain 1on1 situations are unfair:</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I think this is more hitreg and performance fighting you at this point. When we get another performance boost the 1v1 skulk vs. marine game is pretty solid.
2. Shoot in smaller bursts. Honestly this is not a spray and pray game. Aim is important.
3. Fade vs. Marine is unfair. It was always meant to be and I hope it always will be.
If you go 1vs1 vs. a fade...
__a) Remind yourself to run in groups....ALWAYS. In groups skulk lay t your feet with concentrated fire.
__b) Try to learn as much about how he/she plays fade before you are dead.
__c) Run in groups dude. Teamplay with a capital T.
When you find yourself stepping in front of your buddy because you have 5% health and he has 95% you are there.
So yes there are WTF moments firing at skulks and such but this may be the tickrate of the server or just a build lacking oomph.
or maybe your aim just sucks that night.
But the fight vs. a fade you are supposed to die.
A fade costs 50 which would be like you dual wielding a shotgun and a flamethrower.
Finally ... play aliens more often. Even if your preference is marines playing aliens more often will cue you into all their weaknesses.
Know your enemy.
Fades are incredibly wimpy when cornered.
<b>2. There is too much down time for marines (armour welding, reloading, building etc.):</b>
<b>3. Certain 1on1 situations are unfair:</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I think this is more hitreg and performance fighting you at this point. When we get another performance boost the 1v1 skulk vs. marine game is pretty solid.
2. Shoot in smaller bursts. Honestly this is not a spray and pray game. Aim is important.
3. Fade vs. Marine is unfair. It was always meant to be and I hope it always will be.
If you go 1vs1 vs. a fade...
__a) Remind yourself to run in groups....ALWAYS. In groups skulk lay t your feet with concentrated fire.
__b) Try to learn as much about how he/she plays fade before you are dead.
__c) Run in groups dude. Teamplay with a capital T.
When you find yourself stepping in front of your buddy because you have 5% health and he has 95% you are there.
So yes there are WTF moments firing at skulks and such but this may be the tickrate of the server or just a build lacking oomph.
or maybe your aim just sucks that night.
But the fight vs. a fade you are supposed to die.
A fade costs 50 which would be like you dual wielding a shotgun and a flamethrower.
Finally ... play aliens more often. Even if your preference is marines playing aliens more often will cue you into all their weaknesses.
Know your enemy.
Fades are incredibly wimpy when cornered.
I think it means adding more features rather than trying to balance something that's incomplete.
They could spend a ton of hours getting the current NS2 near-perfectly balanced, but then once they add new features, the balance is going to get screwed up again anyway.
They could spend a ton of hours getting the current NS2 near-perfectly balanced, but then once they add new features, the balance is going to get screwed up again anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tweaking balance values doesn't much time at all, adding the exoskeleton does and would be getting worked on by different people. They need to be doing as they are with both forms of development at once otherwise their team would not be getting fully utilised.
Tweaking values, sure, but isn't unjoining alien species from hive numbers a fairly major change that was mainly due to balance?
1 Hive stunk and 2 Hives was awesome due to fades. In the future, skulks and gorges may be better at 1 Hive so that change could be unnecessary.