Lerk: no longer support?
Kama_Blue
Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148710Members
Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148710Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Spores back to rev 199 plz</div>Generally in Ns2, i categorized each of the aliens into important roles.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Skulk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Scout
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Gorge- <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Support / Defensive
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Lerk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Support / Hit-and-run
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Fade- <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Offensive / Hit-and-run
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Onos-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Heavy Offense
Now as of rev 200* i feel a very important shift has been made, that really shouldn't be ignored. Lerk officially is filling a completely different role than it was before.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Lerk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Hit-and-run
Previously lerk was a support battle unit. Whenever you saw alien teams attacking a marine defensive position, the skulks and fades always had the obscurity of the spores to protect them. Lerks would wizz in and out of the marine encampment clouding the battlefield with green gas that not only hurt the enemy, but obscured vision and protected allies from direct fire from enemy marines. The same situation happened when defending, doorways and rooms were often obscured with gas, allowing aliens to use alien vision to gain the upper hand and set upon marines with the home field advantage.
Because lerks were so effective with this strategy, they would often become an important target, and killing them was a huge advantage for marines as it removed the cover the aliens were depending on. A good lerk (like any other support unit) actually changed the battlefield drastically when played well, and was sorely missed when killed. They specifically wouldn't be killing tons of marines single handedly, they would instead be letting other players do the jobs they were meant to.
And with this came the reward/punishment gameplay. Lerks were very encouraged to dive bomb into enemy teams to spread nothing but spores, not for kills, not for a score bonus, but to cover the advance of other teammates. Or do things like obscure doorways, hallways, hives. The element of vision was an immensely important tactical element in many alien battles and there was little (if any) value of running off alone.
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->But now that element is simply missing.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Two things changed
-Spores no longer really obscure vision
-Lerks now have Bile Bomb
The Result?
All of the gameplay elements i stated before are now missing and a completely different emphasis is now on the lerk. Instead the lerk is rewarded by running off alone and destroying structures, a job that fell upon skulks before.
- They can't support teammates with spores anymore, bullets find them far too easily without obscuring vision
- They can't dive into the middle of enemy bases, without expecting to die ^^
- Alien team loses a very important tactical ability with the lack of concealing spores
I was an avid lerk player before, and i find very little value in the class now, specially without two hives up, when before it was pretty amazing and a blast to play even with one hive. Honestly out of all the changes, i would absolutely rather have the spore concealment back rather than bile bomb, i found it far far far more valuable in a team game.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Skulk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Scout
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Gorge- <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Support / Defensive
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Lerk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Support / Hit-and-run
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Fade- <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Offensive / Hit-and-run
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Onos-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Heavy Offense
Now as of rev 200* i feel a very important shift has been made, that really shouldn't be ignored. Lerk officially is filling a completely different role than it was before.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Lerk-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Offensive / Hit-and-run
Previously lerk was a support battle unit. Whenever you saw alien teams attacking a marine defensive position, the skulks and fades always had the obscurity of the spores to protect them. Lerks would wizz in and out of the marine encampment clouding the battlefield with green gas that not only hurt the enemy, but obscured vision and protected allies from direct fire from enemy marines. The same situation happened when defending, doorways and rooms were often obscured with gas, allowing aliens to use alien vision to gain the upper hand and set upon marines with the home field advantage.
Because lerks were so effective with this strategy, they would often become an important target, and killing them was a huge advantage for marines as it removed the cover the aliens were depending on. A good lerk (like any other support unit) actually changed the battlefield drastically when played well, and was sorely missed when killed. They specifically wouldn't be killing tons of marines single handedly, they would instead be letting other players do the jobs they were meant to.
And with this came the reward/punishment gameplay. Lerks were very encouraged to dive bomb into enemy teams to spread nothing but spores, not for kills, not for a score bonus, but to cover the advance of other teammates. Or do things like obscure doorways, hallways, hives. The element of vision was an immensely important tactical element in many alien battles and there was little (if any) value of running off alone.
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->But now that element is simply missing.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Two things changed
-Spores no longer really obscure vision
-Lerks now have Bile Bomb
The Result?
All of the gameplay elements i stated before are now missing and a completely different emphasis is now on the lerk. Instead the lerk is rewarded by running off alone and destroying structures, a job that fell upon skulks before.
- They can't support teammates with spores anymore, bullets find them far too easily without obscuring vision
- They can't dive into the middle of enemy bases, without expecting to die ^^
- Alien team loses a very important tactical ability with the lack of concealing spores
I was an avid lerk player before, and i find very little value in the class now, specially without two hives up, when before it was pretty amazing and a blast to play even with one hive. Honestly out of all the changes, i would absolutely rather have the spore concealment back rather than bile bomb, i found it far far far more valuable in a team game.
Comments
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Couldn't agree more with your post, especially the part I bolded.
Why does anyone want that for the lerk?
I don't know where to begin.
Firstly, boring? that's entirely subjective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ridiculously easy for very little effort<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>That's the idea.</b> You use the cover of the spores to get in close and take out enemies that have *ranged weapons*. How do you not get this?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For marines, it makes combat next to impossible with no option but to lower your gun and run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could simply move away from the cloud and wait for the aliens to come out?
Or you could request that the comm uses the radar in your area.
It obscures your vision while damaging you a little bit. That's the point.
Also, i'm fairly sure flamethrowers can get rid of spore clouds if you shoot them, unless that was always just coincidence when I did it..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the lerk, you're suiciding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you're bad.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can get a few kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you know, halt a marine assault at a room, or any number of other things which are just generally *playing the game*.
I'm really against people that seem to want to turn the game into nothing more than 15-minute matches which are decided by who secures the only one or two important points on the map first.
I loved how the lerk and skulks could work together like that, synergy. Working as a team and using your different abilities to win, how is that not more fun than the alternative of every alien just going around and doing their own thing the entire game?
A lerk harassing a base ties up marines. They can't leave him there because he'll break things, they have a hard time engaging him because he can zip off into the distance, and (once bilebomb is working properly) they can't just drop a couple of turrets and call it a day like you can with a skulk. If the marines decide to run away from the lerk rather than engaging, they tend to do so in a straight line, and lerk spikes do more damage than an LMG per second. A lerk can cross the entire map in very short order to respond to a threat, and while he feels a little overpriced at 30 res, it's only a little (25 might be fine, or a spike damage upgrade).
I don't die much as a lerk, and while I don't get a lot of kills I can tie up a few marines pretty well, which is just about as good (since dying, respawning, and jumping through a phase gate costs nothing but 10 seconds, but having 3 marines fail to join an assault because they're busy screwing around with a lerk they can't kill is priceless).
Opaque spore clouds were a bit too thick, the current iteration is a bit too thin... there's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, I think.
I do get it, and I think it's bad for the game to make combat so polarized and simple.
What do aliens have in the early game when you take away opaque spores? They're slow as hell and they have to run at walls before they can close the distance to marines safely.
What does the lerk have other than spores? Spikes that do piss-poor damage unless your opponent lets you circle them for 30 seconds while they doze off.
Show me your lerk play where you spore marines without suiciding, and the marines aren't themselves bad. Show me!
Are..you sure?
Not the best example of it due to the nature of public games, but yes, Lerks can be brutal. Skip to around 4m12s for Lerk play.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j7M4cS43QEY?t"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j7M4cS43QEY?t" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Just because you can't make a lifeform perform doesn't mean someone else can't. I am lousy at Fade, get a few kills then get shotgunned, pretty reliably. Lerk on the other hand, with cara/regen online, I can last usually last 5ish minutes at a shot and put quite a few marines in the ground before.
against marines that aren't completely new to NS2, lerks don't stand a chance on their own - i got taken down today by from what i could tell was a single magazine. <i>thats a 0 pres lifeform that can end a 30 res lifeform in about 4 seconds.</i> that's just silly if its supposed to be "in combat" with groups of marines.
the biggest issue with this current setup and why you dont see anyone play it is because it is <b><u>FRUSTRATING</u></b> to waste your res on something that dies that easily due to role confusion.
if they doubled the health of the lerk and made it a spore/umbra sprayer only with no spikes, i actually think this would be a better role for it, as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons.
@arkanti that video just shows a skulk doing all the work while the lerk runs away? thats not a combative lifeform. and if its supposed to be, allow it to survive in a combat with a justifiable / appropriate res requirement. (i suggest 25 p res, even after the change i suggest above)
Why does anyone want that for the lerk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat
against marines that aren't completely new to NS2, lerks don't stand a chance on their own - i got taken down today by from what i could tell was a single magazine. <i>thats a 0 pres lifeform that can end a 30 res lifeform in about 4 seconds.</i> that's just silly if its supposed to be "in combat" with groups of marines.
the biggest issue with this current setup and why you dont see anyone play it is because it is <b><u>FRUSTRATING</u></b> to waste your res on something that dies that easily due to role confusion.
if they doubled the health of the lerk and made it a spore/umbra sprayer only with no spikes, i actually think this would be a better role for it, as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons.
@arkanti that video just shows a skulk doing all the work while the lerk runs away? thats not a combative lifeform. and if its supposed to be, allow it to survive in a combat with a justifiable / appropriate res requirement. (i suggest 25 p res, even after the change i suggest above)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
`
Try watching more than the first few minutes, the lerks are dominating by the end. And yes, sometimes you do have to run away when you're low on health.
But now without spike shotgun :/
But now without spike shotgun :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't disagree it's possible to kill things with lerk
But that statement everyone's making "Against good marines" or "Against marines that can aim"
Doesn't that raise red flags with you guys?
I could boast a 7/1 K/D ratio on a lerk against a marine team that didn't shoot at me sure, but that doesn't magically make all those times i spawned, flew outside my hive spamming spores over the attacking marines, got shotgunned in the face and died instantly go away, does it?
<!--quoteo(post=1913783:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 15 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not the best example of it due to the nature of public games, but yes, Lerks can be brutal. Skip to around 4m12s for Lerk play.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j7M4cS43QEY?t"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j7M4cS43QEY?t" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Looks at the 2-3 skulks constantly assisting the lerk*
*Still taking 15-30 seconds to kill anything*
*Crosses arms*
<!--quoteo(post=1913659:date=Mar 15 2012, 07:09 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 15 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Opaque spore clouds are a really boring mechanic for both teams. For aliens, it makes combat ridiculously easy for very little effort. For marines, it makes combat next to impossible with no option but to lower your gun and run. For the lerk, you're suiciding so your skulks that cost 0 pres can get a few kills.
Why does anyone want that for the lerk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the definition of support is "Focus me i'm giving my team an advantage"
<!--quoteo(post=1913759:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:04 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 15 2012, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While some people did play lerk as a support class, it definitely had very effective offensive capabilities in B199; namely, shotgun spikes. Granted, lerk was hard to learn so few people actually did that, but the few that did dominated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye...no.
The only time lerks dominate is when marines aren't paying attention, can't aim, are running around alone more than 15-20 seconds from help, aren't near turrets, aren't near corners to hide around, aren't strafing or moving in any direction constantly, don't have ammunition, can't hit a lerk intentionally staying still in midair to barrage them with spikes and lastly don't have any form of weapon upgrade and are simply running around with the axe out.
But don't let that last one fool you, i've been axed by marines three times as lerk. I've been god damn counting.
<!--quoteo(post=1913795:date=Mar 15 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 15 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because you can't make a lifeform perform doesn't mean someone else can't. I am lousy at Fade, get a few kills then get shotgunned, pretty reliably. Lerk on the other hand, with cara/regen online, I can last usually last 5ish minutes at a shot and put quite a few marines in the ground before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being bad at an alien is slightly different than feeling there's no potential to be had.
We watch fades dominate rines all the time, and you can't lie to yourself and say it's a worthless alien because you can't play it.
But when you make a good effort to play lerk offensively and find it hard to take anything seriously beneficial against good players out of it, you're either missing the same thing everyone else is, or it's just not there.
I'm not saying there's no value in lerks. But often times alien games are carried by skulk rushes, fades and onos.
Which is why i loved the old spores, i had teammates tell me i just won us the game for being a bro and covering their attacks with spores.
<!--quoteo(post=1913806:date=Mar 16 2012, 01:14 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 01:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea but 5 minutes (Which is a lot for anybody actually <b>fighting </b>with the lerk) is still not much for a<u> 30 res </u>lifeform.
against marines that aren't completely new to NS2, lerks don't stand a chance on their own - i got taken down today by from what i could tell was a single magazine. <i>thats a 0 pres lifeform that can end a 30 res lifeform in about 4 seconds.</i> that's just silly if its supposed to be "in combat" with groups of marines.
the biggest issue with this current setup and why you dont see anyone play it is because it is <b><u>FRUSTRATING</u></b> to waste your res on something that dies that easily due to role confusion.
if they doubled the health of the lerk and made it a spore/umbra sprayer only with no spikes, i actually think this would be a better role for it, as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons.
@arkanti that video just shows a skulk doing all the work while the lerk runs away? thats not a combative lifeform. and if its supposed to be, allow it to survive in a combat with a justifiable / appropriate res requirement. (i suggest 25 p res, even after the change i suggest above)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you captured a huge part of it really well. It's frustrating to die instantly as a 30 res lifeform.
The rifle issue you had wasn't a lerk problem really. They messed with hitbox interactions with bullets, i think previously hitboxes were actually in front of player models, now they lag behind somewhat. So now you get the good ol "Shot me around a corner" deal.
Moral of the story was, most rine weapons are really powerful because most of the bullets weren't hitting. Now they kinda hit and REALLY hurt. If you've played gorge and tried to flee frantically around a corner lately, you know how bad it feels to go full-to-zero health in one rifle clip.
The only fix I can see is giving the Lerks hostile/support abilities range, which means that it is not required to go near or in LoS of marines. This makes it (mostly) equally useful no matter the skill of the other team. Where as at the moment Lerks are very powerful against low skilled players and useless against high skilled.
The only fix I can see is giving the Lerks hostile/support abilities range, which means that it is not required to go near or in LoS of marines. This makes it (mostly) equally useful no matter the skill of the other team. Where as at the moment Lerks are very powerful against low skilled players and useless against high skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umbra, Primal Scream, Spores
Lerks were support in NS1, not offensive. They covered the team's pushes and retreats, and i thought the spore system in NS2 was an amazing take on this support role.
*Still taking 15-30 seconds to kill anything*
*Crosses arms*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually played against those guys you would understand what I mean.
Maybe a bit but they still get in the way of your view plenty.
Considering spores used to be effectively smoke grenades that also kill you, I think they can take a little bit of a nerf to the smoke grenade part, especially with the ability to use them from the ceiling now.
Lerks were support in NS1, not offensive. They covered the team's pushes and retreats, and i thought the spore system in NS2 was an amazing take on this support role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing you were never on the receiving end of good lerk's bite in NS1. I see a similar dynamic in NS2. Lerk is hard to get the hang of so most people play it as a strafing/spore cloud cover. However, the people who do get the hang of it can dominate with spikes alone.
The only fix I can see is giving the Lerks hostile/support abilities range, which means that it is not required to go near or in LoS of marines. This makes it (mostly) equally useful no matter the skill of the other team. Where as at the moment Lerks are very powerful against low skilled players and useless against high skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you not see my suggestion a few posts before you? it answers this problem easily.
here's something i wrote in another forum that's just rephrasing it:
Give him more HP. and if you are concerned he will be too much of an offensive force, remove his spikes as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons. Then put umbra spores in it's place.
<i><b>There </b></i>- its an area denial / support class that can't be too offense based against players, role confusion fixed.
========================
with this suggestion, lerks will serve their role accurately while not being so weak as to be frustrating and not viable, as they currently are.
We watch fades dominate rines all the time, and you can't lie to yourself and say it's a worthless alien because you can't play it.
But when you make a good effort to play lerk offensively and find it hard to take anything seriously beneficial against good players out of it, you're either missing the same thing everyone else is, or it's just not there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, see, we're agreeing here. I am bad at fade. It doesn't fit my mindset. It's a very effective combat lifeform (I can tell you that from plenty of marine-side encounters) that <i>I am bad at,</i> and so don't play much. The lerk is much more my style and fits my thinking, so I am a good fit for playing it and ought to be able to get significant performance out of it... and I find it to be (only) fair.
The current lerk needs one more ability, a little more HP, bilebomb improved noticeably, and a little more spike damage and range (or just less spike spread, my personal preference). If the gas clouds were large enough that I didn't have to do 2+ passes to gas a hallway, that'd be great too. About that point, it becomes a 30 res life form. If it only cost 20 or so Pres, as-is, it'd be good.
and you'll see from that vid also that its the mid/long range lerks that is dominating
(not saying you can't dive in for the kill but have to pick your battlegrounds so to speak)
If you're going to buzz a hallway, you really ought to pick your poison... either gas the marines on the way by, or come at them from behind and rip a burst of spikes into a marine's back back before zipping past his friends who have no warning. It's a very useful lifeform who's just overpriced/underpowered at the moment.