<!--quoteo(post=1913444:date=Mar 15 2012, 05:12 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 15 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS - UWE said the skulk was final and they weren't changing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find this exceedingly difficult to believe. This is a BETA where things change quite often.
<!--quoteo(post=1913469:date=Mar 15 2012, 06:40 PM:name=SideOfBeef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SideOfBeef @ Mar 15 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like that you try and dig at counter arguments, calling them amateur game design crap, while providing no justification for your own arguments. It's really good for the conversation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty simple, I will use the skulk movement as an example for you. If the player behind the skulk has air acceleration and can move how ever he wants, he has a lot more "choice" in what to do in a situation, as opposed to being stuck in one animation, which is only forward in the new patch. The human mind is built on patterns, any game, sport or real life events you do, your mind naturally builds a pattern on how to efficiently do it and become good at it. The more you slow things down and give less choice for a player to use, the easier it is for your mind to figure out the pattern and keep up.
If I am a skulk and I can jump and strafe left then right real fast behind a guy then back up and down, it randomizes the pattern making it very hard for the average person to keep up. Now if you limit the choice of things you can do, plus slowing down movement like seen in patch 200. Then the marine shooting at the skulk doesn't need to worry about irregular patterns in order to succeed in shooting the moving target. Not only does simplifying things hurt a player, it hurts the game in the long run. If a game is easy, it's natural for the human mind to get bored and not want to keep trying at it to get better, because there is no skill requirement in evolving as a player. Which is why games like Call of Duty can keep selling new copies every 6 months. The game is basic, we all know this, as soon as the players start to lose interest, they give them a DLC aka map pack, once that gets boring, they sell you a new game 6 months later to refresh your senses and outlook of the product.
Games like CS, Quake and Starcraft stick around for ages because they have a plethora of things to learn to make yourself a better player indvidually and as a team player. What most people don't realize is, companies have psychologist help build games now a days. World of Warcraft is a perfect example of this. Grind Grind Grind, Instant gratification, Grind Grind Grind, make millions. They copy social status from real life in to a video game. Everyone wants to be rich to be free and freedom means better mating options for offspring. Does this all sound over the top? no, because once you understand the bigger picture in life, you will understand why the simplest things such as skill based movement being removed, effects certain people. The bad players cry for nerf because they want to be better at the game and hate losing, which helps bring their social status up sub consciously. The better players want the more skill based, because they confidently know they will dominate the baddies, rather than being held down by chains playing a video game.
Is that a good enough answer for you? In the end, your instincts and social status will always over rule in anything you do.
<!--quoteo(post=1913497:date=Mar 15 2012, 07:20 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, just running up to marine straight ahead is not really the proper way of playing as a skulk anyway. (Even though this is what most people had been doing in 199 with moderate success due to the speed) In NS1 skulks aren't actually that fast either, and you wouldn't often just see skulks running straight into marines (since just like in this build that doesn't work out all too well)
Now if only they would get rid of that goddamned minimap skulk detection, then you'd actually be able to properly hide and pull off ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1, the skulk could Bunnyhop which means air accel is in the game. So make sure you know your stuff before you bring it to the table.
<!--quoteo(post=1913372:date=Mar 15 2012, 05:42 PM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Mar 15 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the console command is skulk_speed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, doesn't work anymore. :p Thanks anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1913383:date=Mar 15 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 15 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"debugspeed", works now for all classes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh sweet, thanks Schimmel. Time to update the wiki methinks. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1913444:date=Mar 16 2012, 01:12 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 16 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS - UWE said the skulk was final and they weren't changing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Citation needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1913497:date=Mar 15 2012, 08:20 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now if only they would get rid of that goddamned minimap skulk detection, then you'd actually be able to properly hide and pull off ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hiding in vents is a very low-skill activity, whereas any traditional fps skilled movement has a very high skill ceiling (and relatively low skill floor)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hiding in vents is a very low-skill activity, whereas any traditional fps skilled movement has a very high skill ceiling (and relatively low skill floor)
do you want to talk about game design some more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. NS isn't your tradition FPS, comparing it with games like CS or Quake is pretty stupid 2. It's not just hiding in vents, it's using the environment to the fullest, which also means taking advantage of wall jumps and the new momentum mechanism if you do want to just throw yourself at an enemy.
<!--quoteo(post=1913552:date=Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. NS isn't your tradition FPS, comparing it with games like CS or Quake is pretty stupid 2. It's not just hiding in vents, it's using the environment to the fullest, which also means taking advantage of wall jumps and the new momentum mechanism if you do want to just throw yourself at an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I know that. I've played NS1 off and on since its release 10 years ago. I also have tons of experience with Quake, the TF series, Starcraft and on and on. From all this, I know that there are lots of comparisons to be made. What is your gaming background? 2. All of these things pigeonhole you into playing predictably (running away from enemies toward walls before closing the distance to them, hiding in/around set pieces that were put there for you to hide on and get shot by competent marines). Mechanics like bunnyhopping allow you to control how predictable your movement is (within some bounds).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1913554:date=Mar 15 2012, 07:01 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 15 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. I know that. I've played NS1 off and on since its release 10 years ago. I also have tons of experience with Quake, the TF series, Starcraft and on and on. From all this, I know that there are lots of comparisons to be made. What is your gaming background? 2. All of these things pigeonhole you into playing predictably (running away from enemies toward walls before closing the distance to them, hiding in/around set pieces that were put there for you to hide on and get shot by competent marines). Mechanics like bunnyhopping allow you to control how predictable your movement is (within some bounds).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In all fairness mate you harass people on these forums every day from what I've seen.
<!--quoteo(post=1913557:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:04 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 15 2012, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blah blah blah, change it because i got used to the way it was before and don't wanna learn how to play. same old story, different patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heaven forbid the people who have actually played this patch give their feedback about what a disaster it is!
<!--quoteo(post=1913560:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all fairness mate you harass people on these forums every day from what I've seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1913444:date=Mar 16 2012, 12:12 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 16 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS - UWE said the skulk was final and they weren't changing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It a beta, things are final when the game is final. So expect everything anytime. Sometimes you have to take 1 step back because the direction you were going was wrong or to performance demanding.
For me the Skulk plays almost the same as back in 198, you just have to time the jumps different know.
<!--quoteo(post=1913561:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->heaven forbid the people who have actually played this patch give their feedback about what a disaster it is!
look, every patch before where movement was changed had huge complain threads, people eventually got used to it and it turned out to be NOT THAT BAD. can we at least give this a few days before trouncing upon it?
<!--quoteo(post=1913565:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:07 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 15 2012, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->look, every patch before where movement was changed had huge complain threads, people eventually got used to it and it turned out to be NOT THAT BAD. can we at least give this a few days before trouncing upon it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think people are complaining about a lot more than movement. From what I've seen, it's mostly about the lerk bile bomb, hive construction speed, gorge no longer having bile bomb...
I'm sure we'll<i> get used to</i> all these things if they don't change, but in my assessment that's bad for the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1913444:date=Mar 15 2012, 06:12 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 15 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS - UWE said the skulk was final and they weren't changing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you mean the movement bug that gave people with faster machines a significant speed advantage? yea, i believe charlie said that fix is final.
No spike shotgun on the lerk - why? It was the only viable way to get kills against opponents who can aim their guns at you. I'd love to see the reasoning behind this, so if someone could post that instead of saying this isn't NS1 it would just <b><i>make my day</i></b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. I know that. I've played NS1 off and on since its release 10 years ago. I also have tons of experience with Quake, the TF series, Starcraft and on and on. From all this, I know that there are lots of comparisons to be made. What is your gaming background?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hah, I don't know why you insist on turning this into some sort of e-peen contest but since you insist: I'm sure I have just as much experience with NS 1 and your every day shooters as you do, I've played on a competitive level in various games (Both FPS, RTS and MOBA) and have been one of the designers (and have been in charge of balance and mapping) (Since 2007) of the MODDB's editors choice 2007 mod for company of heroes. (http://www.modhof.com) As a mod designer myself, I also know very well what it's like to have to deal with incessant whining everytime a new patch gets released so god forbid if were to stoop to the same level of voicing criticism (which mind you I also have plenty of) of an indie game in beta.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, because anyone who actually likes a given change or doesn't immediately jump the gun in hating it like 90% of this forum is surely just trying to gain credibility with the dev team.
I understand the point of high speed skulks when attacking marines, but the harassment level that skulks had was incredible. Going at high speed allows you to cover enormous amounts of ground and harass everything marines have behind their lines. By the time they get there, you are already gone.
I wouldn't mind the 199 skulk movement, but put a cap on how long it can be done (stamina?).
Otherwise, give me marine bunny-hopping so I too can cover huge amounts of ground.
If you can call me out like that, why make posts like this? <!--quoteo(post=1913552:date=Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. NS isn't your tradition FPS, comparing it with games like CS or Quake is pretty stupid<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure you can offer more to the discussion, and I'd like to see it.
I moved forward as a skulk.. and wow I was slower... and then I jumped... and I went faster. Guess what? I instantly learned that I should always be jumping as a skulk.
Wall jumping is a bit to weird though, it should just be more you jump the faster you go. Just saying.
<!--quoteo(post=1913640:date=Mar 15 2012, 10:39 PM:name=autograder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (autograder @ Mar 15 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I moved forward as a skulk.. and wow I was slower... and then I jumped... and I went faster. Guess what? I instantly learned that I should always be jumping as a skulk.
Wall jumping is a bit to weird though, it should just be more you jump the faster you go. Just saying.
<begin the hate><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't actually go any faster simply by jumping...
You have to wall jump (and 2-3 times at that) to get any kind of speed bump. Wall jumping without touching the ground is the only effective way to gain more than 1 or 2 speed off the base skulk movement.
The skulk movement in 199 was scrub play, to be honest. The most effective way to move in 199 was to mash your space bar and then hit awdawdaswdaswdawdawawdawdawdawsdaswdsadsasdadadadawdawdawdawawsddsddasdawawawdas dasdawdawdawasdadasadawdaws. The 200 skulk movement is definitely not perfect, but you can't just roll your face on the wasd keys while mashing space to result in your greatest chance of closing the distance to a marine.
200 build has a lot of problems with performance, but the skulk movement is an improvement over 199.
<!--quoteo(post=1913362:date=Mar 15 2012, 04:33 PM:name=kryptocide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kryptocide @ Mar 15 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this has been hapening to games for years. where companies cater to the noobs just to get a quik buch or two. when the real players that want to get better at a game but cant cuz it has no skill. like they took out bunny hopping a few patches ago, like wtv why you g uys want to listen to these noobs that cant aim or play for sh!t. here some advice UWE, add nething thatll take skill in the game. dont take out or change nething cuz these noobs are complaining about somethign being HARD to do. cuz mostlikely theyr bad at the game and should be ignored. so bring bak bhopping, and fix this sh!t movement this 200 patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to basic economics! If you want to make money, lots of people have to like your stuff. But seriously I hope this change is not intentional because skulk feels more like a cow then an agile alien atm. Also, why would they remove walljump without putting anything in to balance the loss. Maybe it's still in but if so I do not see it, climbing up a wall and propelling yourself across a room seems barely faster then running or reg jumping across the distance.
<!--quoteo(post=1913692:date=Mar 15 2012, 11:48 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Mar 15 2012, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welcome to basic economics! If you want to make money, lots of people have to like your stuff. But seriously I hope this change is not intentional because skulk feels more like a cow then an agile alien atm. Also, why would they remove walljump without putting anything in to balance the loss. Maybe it's still in but if so I do not see it, climbing up a wall and propelling yourself across a room seems barely faster then running or reg jumping across the distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They didn't remove it, they just changed it so you have to wall jump 2-3 times in succession to get a bonus.
I argee, I think the old wall jump should still exist, but only up to maybe 10 speed off a single wall. If you want to hit 13, or 15, you have to do multiple wall jumps a la 200.
<!--quoteo(post=1913704:date=Mar 15 2012, 10:56 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 15 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They didn't remove it, they just changed it so you have to wall jump 2-3 times in succession to get a bonus.
I argee, I think the old wall jump should still exist, but only up to maybe 10 speed off a single wall. If you want to hit 13, or 15, you have to do multiple wall jumps a la 200.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure that's how it works currently. When I was playing earlier I definitely felt a significant speed boost after the first wall jump, though I don't know the exact numbers. If you're talking about a speed boost that somehow sustains several seconds after you stop walljumping I didn't see one, but that doesn't sound like a good mechanic to have in the game.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1913405:date=Mar 15 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 15 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also now animations don't make marines lose 5 in 10 bullets on skulks anymore, so rifles are actually fearsome now. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your thread was addressed? i thought it was just the lerk animation that was lag compensated?? is it not 250 ms still for skulks?
<b>edit:</b> internet. why are you instigating people, buddy? come on, you're better than that. forum guidelines : "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all! "
There is a psychological effect with speed. Open the lua files and increase the speed, and it feels better, decrease it and it feels pretty bad. The speed gives you a freedom feeling which is pretty nice.
But you can't increase speed so much just to please people.
I find the wall jumping behavior a bit weird when you look into the wall, it should still detach you off the wall.
<!--quoteo(post=1913443:date=Mar 16 2012, 10:09 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 16 2012, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I can do is laugh at posts like this. No I was good because I was good and I can be just as easily as good in this build. That's like saying the Fade is hard to play, I mean who can't hold right click and be invisible as a fade?
I go in to games as a skulk with upgrades and get more kills then good fade players, simply because I understand the game better than most. Now the class as others have mentioned is close to worthless, which is true. They watered it down so the baddies that can't aim a friggin rifle can now hit a skulk, because they lack any type of aiming required in any modern day shooter. Before you call somebody bad, at least learn to get kills on the so called "op classes".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elodea is a fantastic player, so you two bashing eachother over this isn't helping. The 199 movement was not fun for either marines or skulks, there was no logical way to predict the air movement of a skulk as a marine, and you simply gained speed by spamming jump as a skulk, alongside the strategy of just spazzing out in the air while attacking being far too viable. And skulks were far too sticky, often getting stuck inside of marines.You're only slower than a marine now if you're not using your movement well, plus once you get leap you can conserve massive amounts of momentum after landing.
If you could please explain the supposed skill in the 199 movement I may just change my mind, but don't bring stuff like CS and Quake into this... they don't even have anything resembling skulk gameplay.
This build doesn't perfect the skulk movement, but it's an improvement.
<!--quoteo(post=1913835:date=Mar 16 2012, 07:48 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 16 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elodea is a fantastic player on nearly all fronts. The 199 movement was not fun for either marines or skulks, there was no logical way to predict the air movement of a skulk as a marine, and you simply gained speed by spamming jump as a skulk, alongside the strategy of just spazzing out in the air while attacking being far too viable. And skulks were far too sticky, often getting stuck inside of marines.
You're only slower than a marine now if you're not using your movement well, plus once you get leap you can conserve massive amounts of momentum after landing.
This build isn't perfect, but it's an improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely agree with this post.
The skulk wall jump // skill jumping mechanic needs a bit more naturalization and ironing out, but the default speed of the skulk is good. If you run down a hallway at marines, you should get owned. Skulks are ambush units. If you want to charge a marine who is looking at you, then you have to use the skill jumps. In 199, you just ran and tweaked out in the air to close the gap. That was terrible gameplay.
200 is definitely an improvement in the skulk department. Now if only performance didn't suck so hard.
Comments
I find this exceedingly difficult to believe. This is a BETA where things change quite often.
It's pretty simple, I will use the skulk movement as an example for you. If the player behind the skulk has air acceleration and can move how ever he wants, he has a lot more "choice" in what to do in a situation, as opposed to being stuck in one animation, which is only forward in the new patch. The human mind is built on patterns, any game, sport or real life events you do, your mind naturally builds a pattern on how to efficiently do it and become good at it. The more you slow things down and give less choice for a player to use, the easier it is for your mind to figure out the pattern and keep up.
If I am a skulk and I can jump and strafe left then right real fast behind a guy then back up and down, it randomizes the pattern making it very hard for the average person to keep up. Now if you limit the choice of things you can do, plus slowing down movement like seen in patch 200. Then the marine shooting at the skulk doesn't need to worry about irregular patterns in order to succeed in shooting the moving target. Not only does simplifying things hurt a player, it hurts the game in the long run. If a game is easy, it's natural for the human mind to get bored and not want to keep trying at it to get better, because there is no skill requirement in evolving as a player. Which is why games like Call of Duty can keep selling new copies every 6 months. The game is basic, we all know this, as soon as the players start to lose interest, they give them a DLC aka map pack, once that gets boring, they sell you a new game 6 months later to refresh your senses and outlook of the product.
Games like CS, Quake and Starcraft stick around for ages because they have a plethora of things to learn to make yourself a better player indvidually and as a team player. What most people don't realize is, companies have psychologist help build games now a days. World of Warcraft is a perfect example of this. Grind Grind Grind, Instant gratification, Grind Grind Grind, make millions. They copy social status from real life in to a video game. Everyone wants to be rich to be free and freedom means better mating options for offspring. Does this all sound over the top? no, because once you understand the bigger picture in life, you will understand why the simplest things such as skill based movement being removed, effects certain people. The bad players cry for nerf because they want to be better at the game and hate losing, which helps bring their social status up sub consciously. The better players want the more skill based, because they confidently know they will dominate the baddies, rather than being held down by chains playing a video game.
Is that a good enough answer for you? In the end, your instincts and social status will always over rule in anything you do.
Now if only they would get rid of that goddamned minimap skulk detection, then you'd actually be able to properly hide and pull off ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1, the skulk could Bunnyhop which means air accel is in the game. So make sure you know your stuff before you bring it to the table.
Nah, doesn't work anymore. :p Thanks anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1913383:date=Mar 15 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 15 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"debugspeed", works now for all classes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sweet, thanks Schimmel. Time to update the wiki methinks. ;)
Citation needed.
hiding in vents is a very low-skill activity, whereas any traditional fps skilled movement has a very high skill ceiling (and relatively low skill floor)
do you want to talk about game design some more?
do you want to talk about game design some more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. NS isn't your tradition FPS, comparing it with games like CS or Quake is pretty stupid
2. It's not just hiding in vents, it's using the environment to the fullest, which also means taking advantage of wall jumps and the new momentum mechanism if you do want to just throw yourself at an enemy.
2. It's not just hiding in vents, it's using the environment to the fullest, which also means taking advantage of wall jumps and the new momentum mechanism if you do want to just throw yourself at an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I know that. I've played NS1 off and on since its release 10 years ago. I also have tons of experience with Quake, the TF series, Starcraft and on and on. From all this, I know that there are lots of comparisons to be made. What is your gaming background?
2. All of these things pigeonhole you into playing predictably (running away from enemies toward walls before closing the distance to them, hiding in/around set pieces that were put there for you to hide on and get shot by competent marines). Mechanics like bunnyhopping allow you to control how predictable your movement is (within some bounds).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
2. All of these things pigeonhole you into playing predictably (running away from enemies toward walls before closing the distance to them, hiding in/around set pieces that were put there for you to hide on and get shot by competent marines). Mechanics like bunnyhopping allow you to control how predictable your movement is (within some bounds).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all fairness mate you harass people on these forums every day from what I've seen.
heaven forbid the people who have actually played this patch give their feedback about what a disaster it is!
<!--quoteo(post=1913560:date=Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 15 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all fairness mate you harass people on these forums every day from what I've seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[citation needed]
It a beta, things are final when the game is final. So expect everything anytime.
Sometimes you have to take 1 step back because the direction you were going was wrong or to performance demanding.
For me the Skulk plays almost the same as back in 198, you just have to time the jumps different know.
[citation needed]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
look, every patch before where movement was changed had huge complain threads, people eventually got used to it and it turned out to be NOT THAT BAD. can we at least give this a few days before trouncing upon it?
Well, I think people are complaining about a lot more than movement. From what I've seen, it's mostly about the lerk bile bomb, hive construction speed, gorge no longer having bile bomb...
I'm sure we'll<i> get used to</i> all these things if they don't change, but in my assessment that's bad for the game.
you mean the movement bug that gave people with faster machines a significant speed advantage? yea, i believe charlie said that fix is final.
I want to go fast again....WTF!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best part, though? The only reason we can't have both ways (hiding/environment use, quake-style movement) is that people like you whine nonstop in a pathetic attempt to gain credibility with developers who aren't even paying attention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, because anyone who actually likes a given change or doesn't immediately jump the gun in hating it like 90% of this forum is surely just trying to gain credibility with the dev team.
But hey, you probably know better anyway.
I wouldn't mind the 199 skulk movement, but put a cap on how long it can be done (stamina?).
Otherwise, give me marine bunny-hopping so I too can cover huge amounts of ground.
If you can call me out like that, why make posts like this?
<!--quoteo(post=1913552:date=Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. NS isn't your tradition FPS, comparing it with games like CS or Quake is pretty stupid<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure you can offer more to the discussion, and I'd like to see it.
Wall jumping is a bit to weird though, it should just be more you jump the faster you go.
Just saying.
<begin the hate>
Wall jumping is a bit to weird though, it should just be more you jump the faster you go.
Just saying.
<begin the hate><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't actually go any faster simply by jumping...
You have to wall jump (and 2-3 times at that) to get any kind of speed bump. Wall jumping without touching the ground is the only effective way to gain more than 1 or 2 speed off the base skulk movement.
The skulk movement in 199 was scrub play, to be honest. The most effective way to move in 199 was to mash your space bar and then hit awdawdaswdaswdawdawawdawdawdawsdaswdsadsasdadadadawdawdawdawawsddsddasdawawawdas
dasdawdawdawasdadasadawdaws. The 200 skulk movement is definitely not perfect, but you can't just roll your face on the wasd keys while mashing space to result in your greatest chance of closing the distance to a marine.
200 build has a lot of problems with performance, but the skulk movement is an improvement over 199.
Welcome to basic economics! If you want to make money, lots of people have to like your stuff. But seriously I hope this change is not intentional because skulk feels more like a cow then an agile alien atm. Also, why would they remove walljump without putting anything in to balance the loss. Maybe it's still in but if so I do not see it, climbing up a wall and propelling yourself across a room seems barely faster then running or reg jumping across the distance.
They didn't remove it, they just changed it so you have to wall jump 2-3 times in succession to get a bonus.
I argee, I think the old wall jump should still exist, but only up to maybe 10 speed off a single wall. If you want to hit 13, or 15, you have to do multiple wall jumps a la 200.
I argee, I think the old wall jump should still exist, but only up to maybe 10 speed off a single wall. If you want to hit 13, or 15, you have to do multiple wall jumps a la 200.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure that's how it works currently. When I was playing earlier I definitely felt a significant speed boost after the first wall jump, though I don't know the exact numbers. If you're talking about a speed boost that somehow sustains several seconds after you stop walljumping I didn't see one, but that doesn't sound like a good mechanic to have in the game.
your thread was addressed?
i thought it was just the lerk animation that was lag compensated??
is it not 250 ms still for skulks?
<b>edit:</b> internet. why are you instigating people, buddy? come on, you're better than that.
forum guidelines : "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all! "
But you can't increase speed so much just to please people.
I find the wall jumping behavior a bit weird when you look into the wall, it should still detach you off the wall.
I go in to games as a skulk with upgrades and get more kills then good fade players, simply because I understand the game better than most. Now the class as others have mentioned is close to worthless, which is true. They watered it down so the baddies that can't aim a friggin rifle can now hit a skulk, because they lack any type of aiming required in any modern day shooter. Before you call somebody bad, at least learn to get kills on the so called "op classes".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elodea is a fantastic player, so you two bashing eachother over this isn't helping. The 199 movement was not fun for either marines or skulks, there was no logical way to predict the air movement of a skulk as a marine, and you simply gained speed by spamming jump as a skulk, alongside the strategy of just spazzing out in the air while attacking being far too viable. And skulks were far too sticky, often getting stuck inside of marines.You're only slower than a marine now if you're not using your movement well, plus once you get leap you can conserve massive amounts of momentum after landing.
If you could please explain the supposed skill in the 199 movement I may just change my mind, but don't bring stuff like CS and Quake into this... they don't even have anything resembling skulk gameplay.
This build doesn't perfect the skulk movement, but it's an improvement.
You're only slower than a marine now if you're not using your movement well, plus once you get leap you can conserve massive amounts of momentum after landing.
This build isn't perfect, but it's an improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely agree with this post.
The skulk wall jump // skill jumping mechanic needs a bit more naturalization and ironing out, but the default speed of the skulk is good. If you run down a hallway at marines, you should get owned. Skulks are ambush units. If you want to charge a marine who is looking at you, then you have to use the skill jumps. In 199, you just ran and tweaked out in the air to close the gap. That was terrible gameplay.
200 is definitely an improvement in the skulk department. Now if only performance didn't suck so hard.