My early game conundrum
Moody
Join Date: 2010-07-18 Member: 72528Members
Join Date: 2010-07-18 Member: 72528Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This isn't a thread whining about early game balance...</div>Something I've noticed while I'm playing is that it seems like the whole match is hinged around the first 4-5 minutes, and whether the alien second hive is taken down while under construction. If the aliens get the second hive, they get fades, 2 upgrades per alien, skulk jump, ect. making for What I consider a more balanced (I never said perfectly balanced) game vs the marines (if the marines have good teamwork and a good comm that is). But if the second hive is taken down while under construction, the alien team might as well just stop playing, because it's almost impossible to come back from that. I'm not trying to say that it is impossible, I've been in 1 game where the alien team has recovered from losing the second hive and won, but that's 1 out of the dozens of rounds I've played so far. And at the moment I think it's just a little bit too easy for the marines to take out the second hive.
On the other hand I also think that once the aliens get the second hive, it puts them at a comfortable advantage over the marines. Unless the marines keep up constant pressure on the second hive, it's not long before the aliens get map control and get close to marine base, or a 3rd hive.
What's the community's thoughts and suggestions? I just don't like that so much of the match and the balance of the game depends on something that happens so early in it. I'm sure that I've probably gotten many of the balance things wrong, and that I'll get a thrashing about that by some of the community members, but my comments come from the games I've played on build 199, and it's possible that I have just had many bad teams or comms that have led me to think this way, and if that is that case, what are some good strategies, and tactics on both sides to deal with the early game 2nd hive scenario?
On the other hand I also think that once the aliens get the second hive, it puts them at a comfortable advantage over the marines. Unless the marines keep up constant pressure on the second hive, it's not long before the aliens get map control and get close to marine base, or a 3rd hive.
What's the community's thoughts and suggestions? I just don't like that so much of the match and the balance of the game depends on something that happens so early in it. I'm sure that I've probably gotten many of the balance things wrong, and that I'll get a thrashing about that by some of the community members, but my comments come from the games I've played on build 199, and it's possible that I have just had many bad teams or comms that have led me to think this way, and if that is that case, what are some good strategies, and tactics on both sides to deal with the early game 2nd hive scenario?
Comments
It also doesn't help that there's no real "research" economy on the alien side at the 1-hive level. While marines can still be grinding slowly, getting weapons/armor 1-2-3, picking up better weapons, etc, once you've built your 3 tech buildings and researched the couple of things they give you, there's nothing to spend res ON except for forward crags, whips, that kind of thing... and you're severely limited in your ability to spend that res you have stockpiling up by your energy economy. I've had games where we lose the first try at a second hive, and I'm sitting on 200+ res because energy comes in so slowly.
its been this way for a while, despite changes that were made to counter or soften it, but its still a major issue,
even more so in competitive /organized matches.
its only going to get worse now that the lerk will be more used due to bile bomb inclusion on 2nd hive, you will have fade and lerk rushes that will lay waste to everything.
the real question is: <b>how to lessen the impact of the 2nd hive without taking away it's importance?? </b>(which is crucial to deterring stalemates, and establishing bases and multiple spawn locations)
Two obvious flaws here.
1. the egg spawning system
2. attaching the grenade launcher, a weapon that was perfectly balanced and very powerful in ns1, to an LMG.
you can have rock, paper, scissor mechanics without having to make a singular player defenseless
(GL with no way to fight other players) otherwise its as_oilrig alllll over again with a vip to protect.
IMO what we see in NS 2 currently for aliens is really a watered down version of the early-mid game compared to NS 1, because of the lack of strategy choices to be made. I risk repeating myself over and over but I can't help to miss gorges building RTs and hives and aliens having much more reliable map control in general. (due to stronger turrets)
I really do like the infestation mechanic though, maybe if cysts were cheaper on gorges and if hydras received a significant buff would we be able to see a much more diversity in alien strategies.
So, direct hits on aliens = good night, and same for hives.
It would give the weapon a higher skill level, and we could possibly have grenades that fire out instantaneously and with speed...
The gl is still really weird, firing straight up and the model is the wrong angle... it also explodes close to you if you are suffering performance wise.
Needs sorting.
its been this way for a while, despite changes that were made to counter or soften it, but its still a major issue,
even more so in competitive /organized matches.
its only going to get worse now that the lerk will be more used due to bile bomb inclusion on 2nd hive, you will have fade and lerk rushes that will lay waste to everything.
the real question is: <b>how to lessen the impact of the 2nd hive without taking away it's importance?? </b>(which is crucial to deterring stalemates, and establishing bases and multiple spawn locations)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
easy:
fades with hive 1, but they have half health until hive 2
As for GLs, I definitely agree they need some finetuning.
(As do flamethrowers, imo with the implementation of HMGs they should consider limiting the amount of GLs and Flamers available to the team, so they're more of a tactical supplement to the team rather than all marines being able to ridiculously spam these low-skill threshold weapons)
* Cyst/Drifter Energy problem - will be addressed in next patch afaik
* Improving Lerk to be "worth" 30 res (if you compare lerk/fade lerk is a joke in terms of PRES :P)
* Eventually allowing Fade to become accessable with 1 hive but with an increased PRES cost (80 or so), so you could get extractors instead of hives
* Untieing the upgrades to a hive. Loosing a hive and all associated upgrades is pretty stupid imho, you should only loose the upgrades if you loose the tech buildings (veils, shells, whips) and not the hive
* Eventually allowing gorges to speed up building the 2nd hive
*Note: To balance Fades with 1 Hive, Shotgun should be sightly better again (old shotgun played better/more consitant, though, in theory the new one is more consistent, so I dunno... at least it should be 2-3 hits again, not considerably more)
I think that if fades were researched by teching up somehow, instead of just getting a second hive then it would help. Then when you got a second hive it should perhaps provide better health for fades. This way RTs become more important for the alien team at the start of the game and so do tech buildings. If the com wants to get early fades he runs the risk of only having 1 hive until mid game, when fades would be ready. On the other hand if the com wants to command the map he can still go for an early second hive, then research fades and then have superiority until late game. Only having 1 hive would be a risk, as marines could come in with grenade launchers and destroy either the tech buildings, setting aliens back, or destroy the hive itself.
If aliens hold second hive, it's hard for a marine comeback. It happens, but fades are so goddamn strong right now, and in the hands of a pro, impossible to stop. I've seen a 24-4 in one game with a fader!
Personally, I think a fade needs an initial cost to blink/shadowstep, or some kind of short cooldown. Two blinks/shadowstep with a marine kill would slow it down a bit, but only a -small- bit. I'd just like to see the skill gap closed a little on the fade without gimping newbies using it.
@omega_k2:
no, please no, removing tech from the map means heavily fortified bases and stalemates / turtle game play and a slew of other issues.
i do agree regarding the lerk, however, and i feel we'll see less fades once lerks become actually worth using.
and trust me, with only half hp, i can still wreck marines as a fade, its not the <b>health of the fade that's the issue.</b>
a large problem i have noticed since day one of this game is the TIME is takes to tech up/hive up. i played all day today (i know, no life) and noticed hives were up ~3 min mark, with fades ready every time!! That's a huge advantage, as marines don't usually have armor 2 in 3 minutes, and that's IF you sacrificed things like welders, mines, and OBS.. which you wouldn't because it means death to skulk rushes? Aliens start with what, 25 Tres? and what about Pres? I bet if you delayed them slightly skulks would still be able to do their thing and harass / delay.. but it would give marines enough time to tech up and be on equal ground.
not to mention: what other perks come with having a 2nd hive besides fade and another place to spawn?
You can't do that, because of the resource system the whole alien team can go lerk, so if the lerk is too strong lerk rush will win every game. Lerks need to be weak, that's a consequence of the new resource system.
For the fade, I kind of like the idea of a lair upgrade ( <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116266" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116266</a> ) that would unlock fade and onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think a fade needs an initial cost to blink/shadowstep, or some kind of short cooldown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a poor solution to a real problem, it's bad because it makes the fade unpleasant to play, unresponsive, while we want it to be awesome. There is already cooldowns by the way.
its quite interesting as it is right now
early game
marine must delay hive 2 or knock it down if its building
aliens must get hive2 and also slow down marine upgrades by taking out res towers
if aliens get hive2 and enough res for fades, while marines can not reach armor 2 in time.. likely gg there
mid game
marine has shotties/mines/lv2 armor, pushing for GL/flamethrowers to combat fades -> now they're fighting to stop hive 3
aliens now must use new fades to secure hive3 while still slowing marine upgrades
if aliens get hive3 up and marines can not get jetpacks in time... likely gg there
late game
if both teams are fully upgraded, now its all about territorial control and lots of hydra/sentry spamming..
of course somewhere in between all of this are opportunities of sneak rushes that take out a hive/cc
Perhaps upgrading the Hive to a better version of itself should be what unlocks higher lifeforms, while everything else remains tied to the quantity?
This should really be looked at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't do that, because of the resource system the whole alien team can go lerk, so if the lerk is too strong lerk rush will win every game. Lerks need to be weak, that's a consequence of the new resource system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I strongly disagree, in its current state the lerk is pretty much a ###### upgrade at 30 p.res., you're always better off saving up for that quick fade. In addition, lerks receiving bilebombs will do nothing to address this issue, since it will still make 1-hive lerking useless where as at 2 hives they will actually be more useful. (It really worsens the issue of aliens having to rush a second hive)
It's perfectly feasible to make the base lerk more viable, without him suddenly becoming OP and the entire team going lerk. In his current state he is very much underpowered, just giving him some needed buffs won't suddenly open up a whole new world of OP lerk rushes. And like I said, more lerks at 1-hive and more viable lerk play would result in a less urgent need for 2 hives and less quick fades.
In addition, if the whip/hydras were re-evaluated and could actually lock down rooms we would see A LOT more diverse early alien play, with a proper option for aliens to rush infestation to some corner of the map to secure it with defenses before throwing up a hive. (Rather than now just throwing down that hive and requiring every alien to constantly attack from it)
I don't think aliens need to be able to tech much more with just 1 hive, a second hive IS important, just like it is in NS 1, but they need to make 1-hive play more feasible, for a longer time, than it is currently. With finalised upgrades, better room control options (for both gorges and the commander) and an improved lerk you would already see a tremendous improvement of gameplay.
Early game a marine team, even full of "new players", has an pretty "easy time" especially when the kharaa team is also mostly made up with "new players" . Because 1 hive aliens are easier to contain in their hive and 1 hive "new player skulks" are easier to kill for "new player marines".
New players playing skulks seldom depend on ambushing or using the enviorment, they play skulks mostly like "torpedos". They see an enemy and try to home in on it in the most direct/shortest way possible.
This type of behavior is pretty easy for "new player marines" to counter, a target running straight at you is easier to kill if you just backpedal and shoot at it. But what happens if you throw in leap? Then "killing them" becomes way more complicated, because now they can make up the distance between a marine and them way faster without having to depend on enviormental cover/movement, which is an tactic that usually only more "experienced" players use.
Leap gives "topedo skulks" the ability that makes it easier to bridge the distance to their target, and once that distance it's bridged the odds favor the skulk, at least in an "new player vs new player" scenario.
So with 2 hives marines have to step up their game. Fades are not "overpowered" you just need to be smart about fighting them, bilebomb is not overpowered you just need to be quick on reacting to it. And if nobody had been there to react to it then the team a whole failed and there is no "me" in team....
Or what i'm trying to say: Hive 1 aliens are pretty easy to contain compared to Hive 2 aliens. But most marines only know "fighting Hive 1 skulks without fades". And because killing "torpedo skulks" is piss easy, they consider themself "good/knowledgable players". So when 2 hive aliens show up and the gameplay mechanics favor the "new alien players" a little, marines just feel like the game is "not balanced".
Just as an anecdotal example: As an early game marine i usually rambo all over the map to place where it's required or where i believe i can do the most damage. That's why i often end up with stats like 14:1 or similiar. What happens when a second hive goes up? ###### is getting all kinds of complex...
Now the fades are preventing rambo tries, now you have way more infestation all over the map that makes going ninja difficult/impossible and so on.
2 Hive aliens are basicly the point where you see if a marine team is actually "teamplaying" or if you just got a bunch of rambos that are good at aiming.
Being good at aiming is easy when you come from an FPS game background, understanding how NS works it not. That's why so many marine teams struggle against 2 hive aliens. With 2 hives, the gameplay mechanics a "good marine" needs to be aware off are way more complicated and depper compared to 1 hive aliens.
Many marines still think bilebomb damages them, many marines are scared ######less of fades and consider them "OP" (just like with NS1), all this leads to 2 hive marines playing defensivley and turtling up "that third hive". But if you think like that, you have allready lost the game. Winning in NS is about momentum and timing, you don't gain that by trying to turtle or just reacting to what the enemy does to you.
If you turtle in a 2 hive situation you will just have gorges bilebombing your stuff and fades harassing you at all your bases. But "newbie marine teams" are only effective as one huge zerg group. So you can't coordinate them to defend against these kinds of odds. And at that point the turret spam starts which is usually a good sign for a long drawn out round.
Yes, i'm saying it's the players fault :P
2 Hive aliens just add another complex layer of gameplaymechanics ontop of the game, for people to understand them completly they either need more time playing with them. Or they need to be explained better inside the game. But too often people blame the game when it's actually them and their whole team just being "worse" then their enemy team had been.
if aliens lost a second hive, aliens have no res left to build another, only if they wait for alien commander build rts/second hive...but in the time they wait, marines bomb the map with GLs, burn it with flamethrower and perforate aliens with shotguns.
GL should also be like in the old ns1 way, as powerfull stand alone weapon, not as BIG a** DUAL Gun.
No serious, even if the second hive is up, don't mean aliens have won, because they need rts to go fade.
But marines have just to research cheap shotguns to beat fades and fades are not op, fades can die very quick.
The problem is the peformence/hit detection.
Also if there is more then one fade, it can be hard for marines, but i never saw the full alien team go fade.
Even if they would do, shotguns are a good counterpart.
If the alien commander for example build the second have in earlier game, aliens have to defend it at all cost and after that, they have to defend the two hives and ALL RTS...otherwise its lost.
Marines just have to wait and defend the rts (because obs can be used as mainbase defence).
Thats the big problem in my mind, alien player play like on HARD and marines play on easy (if fade is ready, on medium :P)
You see, aliens have to defend a lot and they can nost just "teleport" from one side of the map to another like marines with phasegate.
Marines can build a second base, aliens are forced.
The reason why aliens win most times, is because they can walk and run alone in the map, if a marine run alone everywhere and don't defend base or rts marines lost.
In my experience, most of this is wrong; in ensl gather, where players know a bit the game and the team is organized, aliens still won most of the games. Second hive was usually gg. At some point in scrims it was almost 100% aliens win rate. And we usually played with 100 res second hive and fade mod.
The only build were it was 50% win rate was the one where aliens had really low armor and were dying super fast.
Second hive being so important is a real problem, because it simplifies the whole strategy to "deny/get the second hive".
In my experience, most of this is wrong; in ensl gather, where players know a bit the game and the team is organized, aliens still won most of the games. Second hive was usually gg. At some point in scrims it was almost 100% aliens win rate. And we usually played with 100 res second hive and fade mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a lot of gathers in b198 and it was quite even. We won many games as marines (although I cannot say for sure what the win % was, but it didnt feel to me like there was a huge advantage for one or the other), it would be useful to keep track of the ensl matches though. The only relevant thing is that we play on ns2_turtle which is the most balanced NS2 map currently, so most peoples experiences are being tinted by badly balanced maps. The data would probably be more useful than the public data gathers right now.
My experience with scrims is that aliens win. Marines just can't put out enough pressure on them. This seems to happen a lot with pub games as well.
Mineshaft is extremely skewed towards aliens. There are only a handful of strategies that I know of that marines can use to win on this map. Tram is another one, the vents at every base unbalance the map. Second hive is generally game over for marines anyways, the vents just help on another level. If aliens get onos, the long tram in the middle of the map make it extremely easy for onos to hit and run with little risk of dying. I feel summit is the most balanced right now, though they are some good marine strategies to use on this map that will heavily tilt in their favor.
Hopefully with exosuits, marines can push out against fades and onos easier. Holding RTs pre-2nd hive isn't too challenging.
Another issue is that phase gates are too easily camped, any fade can easily solo any number of marines using it.
So unlock fade and onos with first hive.
Every hive gives 33,33% more health, which means after the 3rd hive, fade and onos got 99,99% of default health.
Also unlock the weapons with 2nd and 3rd hive.
Seriously, just address lerks and gorges.
gonna have to agree with yuuki here and say all my experience in scrims and organized matches say you are wrong, buddy.
<!--quoteo(post=1912871:date=Mar 14 2012, 06:32 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 14 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unlock lifeforms from hives but have their abilities locked to the number of hives just like in NS1. For example 1 hive Fades can't blink only shadow step or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1912913:date=Mar 14 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 14 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A fade at 33% of its original hp sounds pretty useless.
Seriously, just address lerks and gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a fade that dies from a glancing few rounds of LMG would be worthless and frustrating to everyone (esp new players). think of how maddening it is to spend 30 res on a lerk for it to just go down in one hit from a shotgun currently?
i kind of like NurEinMensch's idea. <b>its the FIRST time i've heard an idea that unties lifeforms from hives and still keeps hives useful / viable/ highly desired.</b>
if every lifeform had some missing ability, with something that "got them by" they would play cautiously and carefully and it would not be frustrating. Onos could not have it's structure damaging weapon until Hive 3, and not have its stomp until Hive 2, but still be worth <b>something </b>with just gore.
this would alleviate any concern for a singular over developed base - as they would treat the 2nd hive just as important!
<u>you still have to fix the viability of the Lerk,</u> (i also disagree with you yuuki) as most players just skip him and go for fade currently due to the uselessness of it. I'm good with the lerk - but he is so easy to kill currently it doesnt matter how good you are - just increase his HP/armor and make his spikes hurt less and keep spores how they are, they can be avoided easily and it keeps him in a harassing role.
to address the issue of Massing Lifeforms, reference the thread by Swalk to get some answers. Rock, paper, scissors method works best - 5 fades in a marine base should not be effective at all, remove their ability to harm structures even further. 5 marines with shotguns should not be able to take down the hive so effectively, remove it's structure damaging ability and leave that to the GL, (while obviously making the GL structure only etc)
A good marine team will only have players who can stand on their own, meaning it is very unlikly they will get picked of by a single skulk. Aliens will be forced to coordinate to be able to win.
This can be clearly seen when Treffnix is playing marines with 1-2 other good aimers, they simply wreck through everything. We will have plenty of players with similar aim when the games comes out.
There are still issues with fps and hit reg/delay(this hurts marine more than aliens because of range vs melee). I can promise you that marines are going to be much much stronger when the peformance gets better.
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About the lerk, the main problem with the lerk currently is he is forced to play without upgrades til 2nd hive comes up. A lerk with carapace is very powerful and is able to survive shotguns shots while he is careful. He needs however a 2nd hive ability(please not bilebomb!).
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I would also love to see his alt fire bit less random for its adrenalin cost. It is very powreful but sometimes the spread is bit strange.
Also I would like to see lerk spores do -armor damage, I think the aliens needs that kind of ability and the lerks fits perfectly.
Energy. Energy energy energy. I've played a LOT of alien commander in the last few weeks, and even with 1-2 gorges helping out running cyst chains, energy is the huge limiter to the 1-hive economy. If marines are aggressively pushing any location, or a single ninja (what I tend to do playing marines) suicide-sneaks into the middle of the alien line and starts working his way out with a LMG, it's 20-30 seconds of waiting for energy PER CYST to replace them. Even without that kind of pressure, it's *impossible* for aliens to rapidly expand and grab most of the map's res nodes, which marines are easily capable of doing at minimal cost (an attentive commander just shieldbubbles and sells any dying res tower, grand total loss 3 res, assuming it didn't have a chance to actually gather any), simply because you run out of energy.
This is the reason we see the 3-minute 2nd hive drop on Mineshaft. Glitches in the map construction let the alien commander have 3-4 res nodes that are easily defended within 30 seconds of starting the map (cysts seem to find paths through walls and over solid rock in a number of places, they're also a ###### for the marines to find and kill unless they know where those spots are), and gorges can make this 5 nodes easily by handling the Crushing end of things. On Summit, holding 5 res nodes that early without a couple of aliens going gorge and chaining for you is quite difficult, and usually means the marines aren't pushing ANY of your hive locations or sneaking through wide-open Crossroads to kill easily-accessed cysts. On Tram, it usually means the marines forgot to bind +attack before playing, and the game is going to be over in damn short order, given the bizarre res node layout and cyst vs. architecture bugs on that map.
1-hive has enough initial energy (and three free drifters) to let you get your resource economy rolling, allowing Pres gorges reinforcing some locations, lerks zipping around, and it's why we see the massive wall of fades appear at 2-hive (all the skulks who didn't spend their initial 25 on anything). It does NOT produce enough energy over time to maintain growth against a couple of determined marine raiders who keep blowing out cyst chains, and unfortunately the "defensive skulk" is a rarity.
The rumored change of cysts from hive energy to commander Pres is a welcome one, it'll reduce this insanity significantly and (i believe) allow for a more varied approach to the early Khomm game. At the moment, though, providing an economy that can push your team to victory against the rapidly-coming mines, shotguns, and Armor upgrades (in addition to providing them with enough eggs and their serious combat class) is entirely dependent upon that second hive.
The balance tweaks we're seeing now are for a game where, even right up to the end, pushes into a hive have to deal with skulks popping up off the ground and chewing on people's ankles, to the tune of a 3-4 hit kill, in addition to hydras raining crap down off the ceiling and occasional Lerk clouds. I'm really curious how this is going to work out when powered armor comes into play, as marine survivability (and therefore, the value of picking up things like special weapons) will skyrocket. It'll be similar to the difference between fighting Skulks and fighting Fades, IMO (albeit fades who can't teleport), and I find the early/midgame alien economy fragile enough already.