Combat and Choke

ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">What is going on?</div>For a longtime now I have suffered from very high spikes of choke (upto 100%) when in combat. The effect seems to be less at the start of games and progressively gets worse, which might suggested it is tied to server performance, but I really have no idea.

Here is a video of some gameplay from today with the stats visible in the top-left you can see the choke shooting up when I get close to or into combat.

<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0QIbFhuVrC0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0QIbFhuVrC0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

I am hopeing someone can shed some light on this issue, why it happens, what its effect is. Is this something client side or server side? etc.
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Comments

  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    edit: embedding issue resolved, thanks Bacillus!
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  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    The embedding goes:

    <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->[youtube]0QIbFhuVrC0[/youtube]<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0QIbFhuVrC0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0QIbFhuVrC0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
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  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    You star, thank you Bacillus!
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  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    The only thing i see is how you dont use the walljumping/bhop mix as skulk, it was never this easy to run around with a ~10-15 speed constantly.

    tststs arga...


    edit: google for "server choke" tho im not sure if ns2 choke works the same as it does in source engine... (yuuki asked the exact same thing a few times, but no official response afaik/remember)
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  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    edited March 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1912442:date=Mar 12 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 12 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing i see is how you dont use the walljumping/bhop mix as skulk, it was never this easy to run around with a ~10-15 speed constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is why movement got revamped from B198 to B199. Movement speeds were influenced by the quality of your PC.
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  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    While it might be true that ppl with better pcs could get faster compared to ppl with lower end pcs before, the main difference is the way walljumping now works... you can much more reliably gain and keep speed compared to pre 199.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLWBd8KiOiI&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLWBd8KiOiI</a>
    (hope schimmel keeps the basic mechanic this way, whatever there will be added in b200 - at least i like the way it works)


    Sorry for offtopic. :p
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  • ArgathorArgathor Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1912442:date=Mar 13 2012, 12:53 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 13 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing i see is how you dont use the walljumping/bhop mix as skulk, it was never this easy to run around with a ~10-15 speed constantly.

    tststs arga...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I personally avoid walljumping too much this patch, as I find the current system terrible and do not want to get too used it before it is changed again. The previous system allowed me to tackle skilled marines much more easily.

    <!--quoteo(post=1912442:date=Mar 13 2012, 12:53 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 13 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: google for "server choke" tho im not sure if ns2 choke works the same as it does in source engine... (yuuki asked the exact same thing a few times, but no official response afaik/remember)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I understand how and why it works in HL/Source. What I would really like to know is:

    1) Does everyone get this? If not, why not?

    2) What exactly causes this in Spark? How does choke effect gameplay?
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  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'll try recording some gameplay today to see how my choke goes in comparison.
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1912464:date=Mar 13 2012, 03:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 13 2012, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While it might be true that ppl with better pcs could get faster compared to ppl with lower end pcs before, the main difference is the way walljumping now works... you can much more reliably gain and keep speed compared to pre 199.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLWBd8KiOiI&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLWBd8KiOiI</a>
    (hope schimmel keeps the basic mechanic this way, whatever there will be added in b200 - at least i like the way it works)


    Sorry for offtopic. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    "works" is a rather generous term for it given that I have no idea how to get it to do anything and certainly not with latency taken into account.

    Skulks control better in the air but I see no other improvement.
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  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I recorded some very end game combat with a lot of marines, onii-chans and gorges. Got 100% choke all the time in combat. 0-15% when just standing still away from the combat.

    That being said, it didn't feel like I was being jerked back or anything during the heat of the battle.
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  • FlounderFlounder Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31656Members
    From <a href="http://www.etcwiki.org/wiki/Counter_Strike_Source_lag_choke_loss_and_ping" target="_blank">http://www.etcwiki.org/wiki/Counter_Strike...e_loss_and_ping</a>

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Choke is lost packets of information sent between you and the server. Choke basically means that your computer is sending your players position, and what he does (shoot, move, nade, knife) to the server, and its not getting there. Counter Strike Source default is to send your players actions to the server 30 times a second. (cl_cmdrate)

    Choke is caused by two things:
    1.Your computer is sending too many packets to the server per second. If you try to send 100 commands to the server per second, and the connection between you and the server can only accept 40, you are going to be getting 60 choke. This will make you SUCK in game, none of your shots will register, and only 40% of the things you try to make your player do will be done, if at all.
    2.The server is not able to read all of the information being sent to it. This can be caused by network lag at the server, or CPU lag at the server. The client cannot control this, but can accomodate for it by lowering their cmdrate and updaterate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as I know, your updaterate (or Spark's equivalent) is tied to your fps. Fluctuations in your fps (video card having trouble rendering heavy action) could also fluctuate your updaterate, causing all sorts of choke, lag, and shinanegans.
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  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1912575:date=Mar 13 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 13 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, it didn't feel like I was being jerked back or anything during the heat of the battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think you would experience that even if the choke was very bad. AFAIK, choke is when there is something preventing the server from sending you all 20 packets a second. It could be your own bandwidth, the server bandwidth, in-game bandwidth settings etc. I'm not sure if it also counts when the server tickrate drops below 20.

    I know that in source it would tend to happen in heavy combat situations when the server was trying to send you lots of data and it exceeded your download rate. It's usually not a big deal though since you can be getting 100 packets a second in source. Even if you get lots of choke and it reduces it to 60 temporarily, your client would still have enough information for everything to work as it should.

    If you look at argas video you can see that when the choke is high he is sometimes getting less than 10 updates a second. I imagine that could cause some registration issues.


    Flounder I don't think that quote is correct. That's the problem with all these rate commands on source games, there's so much misinformation it's hard to know what's right.

    Here's a quote from Yahn Bernier from Valve: "Choke occurs when the server, factoring in your rate setting, determines that it can't send you an update yet because doing so would start to flood your connection. The server checks back every frame until you are ready to receive an update and sends the next update as soon as possible."
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  • FlounderFlounder Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31656Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1912599:date=Mar 13 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Mar 13 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's a quote from Yahn Bernier from Valve: "Choke occurs when the server, factoring in your rate setting, determines that it can't send you an update yet because doing so would start to flood your connection. The server checks back every frame until you are ready to receive an update and sends the next update as soon as possible."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That actually makes a lot more sense, and would help explain his issue even better. The server is equating his fps with his network connection (fps linked to updaterate) and is dropping packets that should otherwise be sent to him.

    But I would love to read some kind of wiki from the devs about the netcode and how it works and plans for the future. Spark is what they are selling here, after all.
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  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    edited March 2012
    That doesn't fully explain it. There are many times in the video where he has over 20fps but is still at 100% choke.

    From looking at the net_stats, it seems like the download rate is set at 20KB/s (equivalent to 20000 rate in source). I suspect the poor server performance and optimization also plays a large part.
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