Or just fix the source of the problem which is that players are even able to clip inside eachother (or objects) in the first place. If that happens for some reason (PG for example), just push one of the players out from it. That's how most games do it, right? I doubt having a fade sit in the middle of the PG making all the marines clip inside him and get stuck when they come through was a design decision, it's a mistake in their collision code.
Imo. most of the suggestions to fix this situation in this thread are just overly complicated workarounds for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1910712:date=Mar 6 2012, 03:36 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 6 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there's a fade on either side of the phase gate, the marines can't get out. Which is something I don't think should be removed. And Marines can even more easily camp egg spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) <b>whats the point in having quick mobility of PGs if it requires heavy investment every time of a turret farm to protect??</b> what you're suggesting is that i spend 15 res on the PG and then if a single alien stands in front and is able to kill the structure and every player walking through... that this is how its supposed to work? no. PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, <b>and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even <u>CONTESTED </u></b>then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. otherwise they are a useless feature. a simple comm ability to temporarily electrify a PG is a valid tactic to get your marines through to at the very least contest the structure they built. let me remind you that there is no equal method to disable alien mobility which brings me to my next point: 2) marines camping spawn eggs is not equivalent to aliens camping PGs. Marines camping egg spawns is equivalent to aliens camping IPs, whereas you will be in a developed base spawn killing, not actively denying mobility.
What he is suggesting is that you actually have to defend phase gates to use them.
If you lose control of your phase gate, then your phase gate is lost. It shouldn't be a safe travel form if you don't have control of the surrounding area.
<!--quoteo(post=1910767:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) <b>whats the point in having quick mobility of PGs if it requires heavy investment every time of a turret farm to protect??</b> what you're suggesting is that i spend 15 res on the PG and then if a single alien stands in front and is able to kill the structure and every player walking through... that this is how its supposed to work? no. PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, <b>and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even <u>CONTESTED </u></b>then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. otherwise they are a useless feature. a simple comm ability to temporarily electrify a PG is a valid tactic to get your marines through to at the very least contest the structure they built. let me remind you that there is no equal method to disable alien mobility which brings me to my next point:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need an alien on both sides of the phase gate to lock them in, not just one. And yes I think if you allow it to get into that position then you've already lost it. You don't need a turret farm to defend it, just a coordinated team and a well placed phase gate. If the aliens are going behind your lines to kill your phase gate while you're pushing, you need to take advantage of that time noting that those aliens can't be directly defending your attack.
Plus what GORGEous said.
<!--quoteo(post=1910767:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) marines camping spawn eggs is not equivalent to aliens camping PGs. Marines camping egg spawns is equivalent to aliens camping IPs, whereas you will be in a developed base spawn killing, not actively denying mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was comparing it to camping IPs(where he mentions spawns).
<!--quoteo(post=1910767:date=Mar 6 2012, 09:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 6 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) marines camping spawn eggs is not equivalent to aliens camping PGs. Marines camping egg spawns is equivalent to aliens camping IPs, whereas you will be in a developed base spawn killing, not actively denying mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> aliens don't run out of bite ammo while spawncamping ip's.
<!--quoteo(post=1910601:date=Mar 6 2012, 02:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 6 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I view the ease at which aliens can camp spawns/phasegates as the main problem with marine defenses. Implementing something like telefrag (or telepush) would help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, this is exactly the wrong direction to take with the game
The proper thing is to defend phase gates and IPs because they're your sources of weakness (as you've identified). As gorgeous said, they shouldn't give you their advantage if you don't have control of the area they're in.
Marines are able to do this much more easily than aliens can defend eggs, because eggs are a broken awful mechanic that actually needs to be worked on.
If players are able to defend phase gates and portals (and they are), there is no reason to change that aspect of the game to be easier
Please, before you post a game design suggestion, sit down and play the game a lot so you know whether or not it's really necessary. If you haven't spent more time trying to guard phase gates/IPs than you have posting about them, you can't be trusted!
<!--quoteo(post=1910813:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:22 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 6 2012, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens don't run out of bite ammo while spawncamping ip's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aliens can't kill IPs from extreme range with 1 pistol magazine apiece (and even if they had pistols, they couldn't)
<!--quoteo(post=1910814:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:25 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 6 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, this is exactly the wrong direction to take with the game
The proper thing is to defend phase gates and IPs because they're your sources of weakness (as you've identified). As gorgeous said, they shouldn't give you their advantage if you don't have control of the area they're in.
Marines are able to do this much more easily than aliens can defend eggs, because eggs are a broken awful mechanic that actually needs to be worked on.
If players are able to defend phase gates and portals (and they are), there is no reason to change that aspect of the game to be easier
Please, before you post a game design suggestion, sit down and play the game a lot so you know whether or not it's really necessary. If you haven't spent more time trying to guard phase gates/IPs than you have posting about them, you can't be trusted!
aliens can't kill IPs from extreme range with 1 pistol magazine apiece (and even if they had pistols, they couldn't)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a single skulk running into marine occupied territory does not constitute "not having control", yet all too often i see a single skulk destroying an entire expansion just because he can camp the pg. i know it because i've been the one skulk many times. i mean, i don't mind it because obviously i like the ability to singlehandedly ruin the game for the marines, but you know...i can tell it's not quite right.
<!--quoteo(post=1910815:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:35 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 6 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a single skulk running into marine occupied territory does not constitute "not having control", yet all too often i see a single skulk destroying an entire expansion just because he can camp the pg. i know it because i've been the one skulk many times. i mean, i don't mind it because obviously i like the ability to singlehandedly ruin the game for the marines, but you know...i can tell it's not quite right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why was no one there in the first place? why was no one able to run there in the like...minute...that it takes for you to bite down the pg (including the time spent biting people who phase in without meds or nano)?
when I do this it always works because they're letting it work...
<!--quoteo(post=1910815:date=Mar 7 2012, 02:35 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 7 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a single skulk running into marine occupied territory does not constitute "not having control", yet all too often i see a single skulk destroying an entire expansion just because he can camp the pg. i know it because i've been the one skulk many times. i mean, i don't mind it because obviously i like the ability to singlehandedly ruin the game for the marines, but you know...i can tell it's not quite right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly dont think theres a good solution design wise that isnt gimmicky as long as the phasegate is designed the way it is as opposed to the 360 degree ns1 phasegate. (assuming no model clipping etc.)
That said, mines are good against the solo skulks. Against the fade camping... the only thing i can think of is increasing swipe energy cost but then again, i feel phasegate camping is the risk that comes with aggressive or inappropriate phasegate placement.
Once frenzy is removed i think we'll see this phasegate camping 'problem' less so as well.
The fact that marines have guns gives them amazing synergy, especially on the defensive. Its just that no one has yet figured out the need to stay spread out while keeping LoS. I do agree that the PGs are way to easy to camp atm, 1 fade is pretty much guaranteed death to all that go in. Maybe let marines lob nades through the pg?
They don't need more defensive capabilities, they need something to counter alien movement. The problem is not how good their defenses are, it's that they need to defend everywhere simultaneously.
If you gave them ways to change map layout to lock off areas and force aliens into attacking their strong points in order to get past them, you could probably make the game more combat based and more evenly balanced.
The best way to win has always been to ignore the enemy for the most part and just go for their structures behind the lines, infestation has made that a lot harder for marines, but aliens can still do that easily, and it's not really a fun way to win or lose.
Infestation has NOT made it harder for marines, IMO... as a frequent alien comm, it's annoying as ###### having marines shoot up my cysts until the front lines solidify somewhere after the two-hive mark, and can be very disruptive to early-game economy and structure timing.
<!--quoteo(post=1910857:date=Mar 7 2012, 06:06 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 7 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation has NOT made it harder for marines, IMO... as a frequent alien comm, it's annoying as ###### having marines shoot up my cysts until the front lines solidify somewhere after the two-hive mark, and can be very disruptive to early-game economy and structure timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As opposed to before when you just ended up with your RTs randomly dying with no warning?
It imposes expansion penalties, but it is also a potent defensive force, because you KNOW that marines are going to attack before they do, and you also give them something else to kill, slowing them down further.
In a game where intelligence and players are your most powerful tools, infestation is the best thing in the game for getting your players where they need to be in time.
<!--quoteo(post=1910866:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 6 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As opposed to before when you just ended up with your RTs randomly dying with no warning?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do like having the infestation field, it's the weakness of cyst chains that i have an issue with.
<!--quoteo(post=1910885:date=Mar 7 2012, 03:40 AM:name=RockyMarc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RockyMarc @ Mar 7 2012, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 turret placed correctly can stop skulks from coming into the marine base. 1 Hydra placed correctly is still a laughing stock :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. I feel shame as comm when I try to defend the base with a whip, only for a marine to go up and knife it to death.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910773:date=Mar 6 2012, 05:22 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he is suggesting is that you actually have to defend phase gates to use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> then what i said still stands true:
"PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even CONTESTED then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. "
<!--quoteo(post=1910801:date=Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need an alien on both sides of the phase gate to lock them in, not just one. And yes I think if you allow it to get into that position then you've already lost it. You don't need a turret farm to defend it, just a coordinated team and a well placed phase gate. If the aliens are going behind your lines to kill your phase gate while you're pushing, you need to take advantage of that time noting that those aliens can't be directly defending your attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>i dont think you are re creating a practical scenario in your head.</i>
1) one fully upgraded fade is all it takes at a slight angle. (we can go in a server i host and i'll demonstrate. trust me, i exploit this all the time) 2)"if you allow it to get into that position youve already lost it" currently it is not economical as i mentioned to build a turret farm every time, try it, see if your team wins. if not a turret farm, then by definition its "already lost" unless you have a team of marines protecting it... but then wtf is the point in mobility if your position is <b>STATIC</b>? 3) the aliens arent "going behind your lines" PG are set up mostly on the frontlines near or in contested areas, else they are in a location the enemy is unaware of - but in all of these situations there doesnt already exist an established base to protect it so were back to the same issue. 4) the issue, as i state is not that it should be an invulnerable item immune from attack, but rather <b>YOU CANT EVEN CONTEST OR DEFEND IT</b> currently unless its nearby something like a base or another PG. one turret? please. you just wasted 25 tres. (15 pg, 10 turret)
@Wheee: i have no idea what point you are trying to make, sorry. i think you might have misunderstood what i wrote, just that his comparison was inaccurate.
like elodea said: use mines. well this works as long as the cost for PG is lowered to account for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1910889:date=Mar 7 2012, 08:49 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 7 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do like having the infestation field, it's the weakness of cyst chains that i have an issue with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I generally find them to be a weakness only in the early game, later on they become an asset. Which is fair enough honestly, if they were strong as soon as you dropped them they'd be a bit overpowered.
It'll probably improve once infestation gets properly implemented, and actually grows stronger the longer you leave it.
<!--quoteo(post=1911056:date=Mar 7 2012, 03:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then what i said still stands true:
"PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even CONTESTED then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. "
<i>i dont think you are re creating a practical scenario in your head.</i>
1) one fully upgraded fade is all it takes at a slight angle. (we can go in a server i host and i'll demonstrate. trust me, i exploit this all the time) 2)"if you allow it to get into that position youve already lost it" currently it is not economical as i mentioned to build a turret farm every time, try it, see if your team wins. if not a turret farm, then by definition its "already lost" unless you have a team of marines protecting it... but then wtf is the point in mobility if your position is <b>STATIC</b>? 3) the aliens arent "going behind your lines" PG are set up mostly on the frontlines near or in contested areas, else they are in a location the enemy is unaware of - but in all of these situations there doesnt already exist an established base to protect it so were back to the same issue. 4) the issue, as i state is not that it should be an invulnerable item immune from attack, but rather <b>YOU CANT EVEN CONTEST OR DEFEND IT</b> currently unless its nearby something like a base or another PG. one turret? please. you just wasted 25 tres. (15 pg, 10 turret)
@Wheee: i have no idea what point you are trying to make, sorry. i think you might have misunderstood what i wrote, just that his comparison was inaccurate.
like elodea said: use mines. well this works as long as the cost for PG is lowered to account for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you not defend it? If you have a marine there, he's defending it. If that marine dies, you've lost your point. Why should you retain your forward base when the aliens have just taken it?
P.S. You can get around all of this by simply nano shielding a marine and sending him through first.
Easy counters are already in place to this "problem" and I don't see anything that needs to be changed.
I still maintain the problem is not defensive ability, but how much you're expected to defend.
Marines can defend bases really well, the problem is that they have to defend their entire territory at once.
If you add more defenses, you make their bases invulnerable, so the trick is not to add more defence, but to focus the defence at their bases.
If marines could just completely block off areas of the map, so that aliens just cannot get through, and FORCE them to go through their bases, they would be able to control territory perfectly well.
The problem is that at the moment, you have to defend every extractor, every power node, every vent and corridor to keep aliens at bay, what a slow moving force should be able to do is plonk a base down <i>in the way</i> of the enemy, and force them to go through it to get to things behind it. At the moment there is no behind, you just run around the base and go for the extractors. There are no battle lines and marines desperately need battle lines to be really effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1910830:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:55 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 6 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why was no one there in the first place? why was no one able to run there in the like...minute...that it takes for you to bite down the pg (including the time spent biting people who phase in without meds or nano)?
when I do this it always works because they're letting it work...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why no one's there? could have been because the skulk killed the defender(s), could be because the comm wanted too much aggression, could be for any variety of reasons that the skulk lives to camp the phase gate. He could have even snuck in with cloak and waited til all the marines were off on the front lines, idk. it just happens. yes, mines can delay a skulk, but you can kill the mines or set them off without dying.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1910885:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:40 AM:name=RockyMarc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RockyMarc @ Mar 7 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 turret placed correctly can stop skulks from coming into the marine base. 1 Hydra placed correctly is still a laughing stock :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the early game opportunity cost of putting down one hydra is much lower than one sentry. For example, the effective cost of the first sentry/hydra are as follows Sentry = 20 (robo) + 10 (sentry) = 30 TRes Hydra = 10 (gorge) + 3 (minicyst) + 10 (hydra) = 23 PRes
However, when you compare that cost to how much TRes/PRes each start out, its clear that sentries are simply more cost prohibitive as an early game defense except for an alien team with 1 player Sentry = 30/50 = 60% starting TRes Hydra = 23/(1x25) = 92.0% starting PRes (for a 1 player team) Hydra = 23/(2x25) = 46.0% starting PRes (for a 2 player team) Hydra = 23/(3x25) = 30.7% starting PRes (for a 3 player team) Hydra = 23/(4x25) = 23.0% starting PRes (for a 4 player team) Hydra = 23/(5x25) = 18.4% starting PRes (for a 5 player team) Hydra = 23/(6x25) = 15.3% starting PRes (for a 6 player team) Hydra = 23/(7x25) = 13.1% starting PRes (for a 7 player team) Hydra = 23/(8x25) = 11.5% starting PRes (for a 8 player team) Hydra = 23/(9x25) = 10.2% starting PRes (for a 9 player team)
In effect, hydras should be weaker than sentries because of the different in opportunity cost for dropping either early game. Also, matches devolved into hydra spamming when they were cheaper/more effective (alpha/early beta builds).
Yeah I undestand, although the comm can drop a sentry and marines take a few seconds to build it, and then back out into the killing fields, evolving into a gorge takes a skulk off the map and is one offensive player down.
<!--quoteo(post=1911097:date=Mar 7 2012, 07:01 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 7 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still maintain the problem is not defensive ability, but how much you're expected to defend.
Marines can defend bases really well, the problem is that they have to defend their entire territory at once.
If you add more defenses, you make their bases invulnerable, so the trick is not to add more defence, but to focus the defence at their bases.
If marines could just completely block off areas of the map, so that aliens just cannot get through, and FORCE them to go through their bases, they would be able to control territory perfectly well.
The problem is that at the moment, you have to defend every extractor, every power node, every vent and corridor to keep aliens at bay, what a slow moving force should be able to do is plonk a base down <i>in the way</i> of the enemy, and force them to go through it to get to things behind it. At the moment there is no behind, you just run around the base and go for the extractors. There are no battle lines and marines desperately need battle lines to be really effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I don't know what games you have played, but I clearly see Battle lines all the time. A good example is Crushing Machine on Mineshaft, that room is the main control point for the map, The aliens always try to make sure the marines can't get into there and the Kharaa need that room since its a Hive location and there is another Hive location right next door. It is a clear battle line. Summit would be cross roads or Flight Control, Tram would be elevator transfer or Repair Room...
The Marines having to defend their entire territory at once isn't any different than the aliens. Marines can just as easily get behind the aliens front lines and chop a cyst chain, which can result in the loss of a lot more than a single structure.
Why should the marines be able to build a "Wall" and keep the aliens away from any point of the map, this isn't starcraft 2, these are real people not bots, being forced into a base and picked off isn't fun.
Try putting Mines on everything and you'll find that every RT you lose will cost them 3 skulks.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1911094:date=Mar 7 2012, 02:53 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 7 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How can you not defend it? If you have a marine there, he's defending it. If that marine dies, you've lost your point. Why should you retain your forward base when the aliens have just taken it? P.S. You can get around all of this by simply nano shielding a marine and sending him through first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sigh. so, my options are to take 1 marine out of the fight so he stays there and defends it? Not only do i lose one to the frontlines/fight but do you really think that one marine (Even with nanoshield) will survive my fade? once again i challenge your theory to practicality in a server, good sir. (i will block you, i will swipe you, i will dodge you, and then i will destroy your structure.)
lastly, its not a forward "base" if its just a single and alone, susceptible, blockable, spawn camped building. thats not a base. thats a highly vulnerable waste of res unless you intend on using it for some temporary purpose like hive rush etc. Chris0132 is very correct in his post regarding frontlines for marines not being economical at all. we dont need turrets stronger, we dont need more of them in a room, we just need to be able to friggin purchase them when/where needed so we can get on with our expansion.
personally, when i PG to an area i make a point to defend that area with turrets, mines and marines. It seriously dissuades the average rogue alien. I sacrifice momentum the alien team is still utilizing, but it can pay off in pugs when the alien team does not coordinate. In organized matches you can throw this tactic out the window completely, its a highly useful yet highly vulnerable structure that will be built by itself and unfortunately, it generally becomes disposable. (read: destroyed)
all i suggest is allow the player to <b>contest</b> the area he is <b>attempting </b>to hold, by not allowing the aliens to a)block the path so teleporting is useless (you just teleport back to base because you cant move) b)allow a marine to go through the pg without getting hit until he is on the other side and able to fire. (Theres a delay just like spawning, where aliens get a "Free" hit before you screen updates)
otherwise, make it more economical to establish frontlines like Chris0132 stated. (Which i like more, personally)
<!--quoteo(post=1911122:date=Mar 8 2012, 12:37 AM:name=Majin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Majin @ Mar 8 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Try putting Mines on everything and you'll find that every RT you lose will cost them 3 skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is to say, nothing, and you 30 pres or so to surround the RT with mines.
<!--quoteo(post=1911126:date=Mar 7 2012, 07:41 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sigh. so, my options are to take 1 marine out of the fight so he stays there and defends it? Not only do i lose one to the frontlines/fight but do you really think that one marine (Even with nanoshield) will survive my fade? once again i challenge your theory to practicality in a server, good sir. (i will block you, i will swipe you, i will dodge you, and then i will destroy your structure.)
lastly, its not a forward "base" if its just a single and alone, susceptible, blockable, spawn camped building. thats not a base. thats a highly vulnerable waste of res unless you intend on using it for some temporary purpose like hive rush etc. Chris0132 is very correct in his post regarding frontlines for marines not being economical at all. we dont need turrets stronger, we dont need more of them in a room, we just need to be able to friggin purchase them when/where needed so we can get on with our expansion.
personally, when i PG to an area i make a point to defend that area with turrets, mines and marines. It seriously dissuades the average rogue alien. I sacrifice momentum the alien team is still utilizing, but it can pay off in pugs when the alien team does not coordinate. In organized matches you can throw this tactic out the window completely, its a highly useful yet highly vulnerable structure that will be built by itself and unfortunately, it generally becomes disposable. (read: destroyed)
all i suggest is allow the player to <b>contest</b> the area he is <b>attempting </b>to hold, by not allowing the aliens to a)block the path so teleporting is useless (you just teleport back to base because you cant move) b)allow a marine to go through the pg without getting hit until he is on the other side and able to fire. (Theres a delay just like spawning, where aliens get a "Free" hit before you screen updates)
otherwise, make it more economical to establish frontlines like Chris0132 stated. (Which i like more, personally)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't "attempting to hold" an area if you're phasing into a room which the aliens have already taken control of. That's called "attempting to retake" which should be hard.
1 alien can't block a phase gate unless you're exploiting the broken collision, which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about fades standing on one side of the gate and blocking you from leaving that side. That is legit and should be left in as such. If you lose control over the exit of your phase gate, then you should have to work to regain control.
It's pretty ridiculous that if marines accumulate enough res to build something like 5-6 IPs and then 2-3 obs, it's almost impossible to take down their last base even if you have 3 onos running in. They can infinitely have the entire team spawned with full ammo, and 3 clips kills an onos at full upgrades (I think).
The IP spawn rate is WAY high at the moment. It should be slowed by 2 seconds, back to where it was.
Controversially, 2 flamer marines at an unattended hive can kill all the eggs in a matter of seconds and make it so that nothing can spawn there for minutes.
Comments
Imo. most of the suggestions to fix this situation in this thread are just overly complicated workarounds for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place.
And Marines can even more easily camp egg spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) <b>whats the point in having quick mobility of PGs if it requires heavy investment every time of a turret farm to protect??</b> what you're suggesting is that i spend 15 res on the PG and then if a single alien stands in front and is able to kill the structure and every player walking through... that this is how its supposed to work? no. PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, <b>and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even <u>CONTESTED </u></b>then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. otherwise they are a useless feature. a simple comm ability to temporarily electrify a PG is a valid tactic to get your marines through to at the very least contest the structure they built. let me remind you that there is no equal method to disable alien mobility which brings me to my next point:
2) marines camping spawn eggs is not equivalent to aliens camping PGs. Marines camping egg spawns is equivalent to aliens camping IPs, whereas you will be in a developed base spawn killing, not actively denying mobility.
If you lose control of your phase gate, then your phase gate is lost. It shouldn't be a safe travel form if you don't have control of the surrounding area.
You need an alien on both sides of the phase gate to lock them in, not just one. And yes I think if you allow it to get into that position then you've already lost it. You don't need a turret farm to defend it, just a coordinated team and a well placed phase gate. If the aliens are going behind your lines to kill your phase gate while you're pushing, you need to take advantage of that time noting that those aliens can't be directly defending your attack.
Plus what GORGEous said.
<!--quoteo(post=1910767:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) marines camping spawn eggs is not equivalent to aliens camping PGs. Marines camping egg spawns is equivalent to aliens camping IPs, whereas you will be in a developed base spawn killing, not actively denying mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was comparing it to camping IPs(where he mentions spawns).
aliens don't run out of bite ammo while spawncamping ip's.
Nope, this is exactly the wrong direction to take with the game
The proper thing is to defend phase gates and IPs because they're your sources of weakness (as you've identified). As gorgeous said, they shouldn't give you their advantage if you don't have control of the area they're in.
Marines are able to do this much more easily than aliens can defend eggs, because eggs are a broken awful mechanic that actually needs to be worked on.
If players are able to defend phase gates and portals (and they are), there is no reason to change that aspect of the game to be easier
Please, before you post a game design suggestion, sit down and play the game a lot so you know whether or not it's really necessary. If you haven't spent more time trying to guard phase gates/IPs than you have posting about them, you can't be trusted!
<!--quoteo(post=1910813:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:22 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 6 2012, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens don't run out of bite ammo while spawncamping ip's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aliens can't kill IPs from extreme range with 1 pistol magazine apiece (and even if they had pistols, they couldn't)
The proper thing is to defend phase gates and IPs because they're your sources of weakness (as you've identified). As gorgeous said, they shouldn't give you their advantage if you don't have control of the area they're in.
Marines are able to do this much more easily than aliens can defend eggs, because eggs are a broken awful mechanic that actually needs to be worked on.
If players are able to defend phase gates and portals (and they are), there is no reason to change that aspect of the game to be easier
Please, before you post a game design suggestion, sit down and play the game a lot so you know whether or not it's really necessary. If you haven't spent more time trying to guard phase gates/IPs than you have posting about them, you can't be trusted!
aliens can't kill IPs from extreme range with 1 pistol magazine apiece (and even if they had pistols, they couldn't)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a single skulk running into marine occupied territory does not constitute "not having control", yet all too often i see a single skulk destroying an entire expansion just because he can camp the pg. i know it because i've been the one skulk many times. i mean, i don't mind it because obviously i like the ability to singlehandedly ruin the game for the marines, but you know...i can tell it's not quite right.
why was no one there in the first place? why was no one able to run there in the like...minute...that it takes for you to bite down the pg (including the time spent biting people who phase in without meds or nano)?
when I do this it always works because they're letting it work...
I honestly dont think theres a good solution design wise that isnt gimmicky as long as the phasegate is designed the way it is as opposed to the 360 degree ns1 phasegate. (assuming no model clipping etc.)
That said, mines are good against the solo skulks. Against the fade camping... the only thing i can think of is increasing swipe energy cost but then again, i feel phasegate camping is the risk that comes with aggressive or inappropriate phasegate placement.
Once frenzy is removed i think we'll see this phasegate camping 'problem' less so as well.
If you gave them ways to change map layout to lock off areas and force aliens into attacking their strong points in order to get past them, you could probably make the game more combat based and more evenly balanced.
The best way to win has always been to ignore the enemy for the most part and just go for their structures behind the lines, infestation has made that a lot harder for marines, but aliens can still do that easily, and it's not really a fun way to win or lose.
As opposed to before when you just ended up with your RTs randomly dying with no warning?
It imposes expansion penalties, but it is also a potent defensive force, because you KNOW that marines are going to attack before they do, and you also give them something else to kill, slowing them down further.
In a game where intelligence and players are your most powerful tools, infestation is the best thing in the game for getting your players where they need to be in time.
1 Hydra placed correctly is still a laughing stock :)
I do like having the infestation field, it's the weakness of cyst chains that i have an issue with.
1 Hydra placed correctly is still a laughing stock :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. I feel shame as comm when I try to defend the base with a whip, only for a marine to go up and knife it to death.
For me, there is rarely an armoury built, so after the first alien assault, there is a rush back to arm up again, leaving the outpost undefended.
Some sort of outpost structure that gave health, ammo and a limited defence (electric shock?) would make the remote end more defendable.
It would be strong against a weak alien skirmish, but not a proper assault.
then what i said still stands true:
"PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even CONTESTED then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. "
<!--quoteo(post=1910801:date=Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need an alien on both sides of the phase gate to lock them in, not just one. And yes I think if you allow it to get into that position then you've already lost it. You don't need a turret farm to defend it, just a coordinated team and a well placed phase gate. If the aliens are going behind your lines to kill your phase gate while you're pushing, you need to take advantage of that time noting that those aliens can't be directly defending your attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>i dont think you are re creating a practical scenario in your head.</i>
1) one fully upgraded fade is all it takes at a slight angle. (we can go in a server i host and i'll demonstrate. trust me, i exploit this all the time)
2)"if you allow it to get into that position youve already lost it" currently it is not economical as i mentioned to build a turret farm every time, try it, see if your team wins. if not a turret farm, then by definition its "already lost" unless you have a team of marines protecting it... but then wtf is the point in mobility if your position is <b>STATIC</b>?
3) the aliens arent "going behind your lines" PG are set up mostly on the frontlines near or in contested areas, else they are in a location the enemy is unaware of - but in all of these situations there doesnt already exist an established base to protect it so were back to the same issue.
4) the issue, as i state is not that it should be an invulnerable item immune from attack, but rather <b>YOU CANT EVEN CONTEST OR DEFEND IT</b> currently unless its nearby something like a base or another PG. one turret? please. you just wasted 25 tres. (15 pg, 10 turret)
@Wheee: i have no idea what point you are trying to make, sorry. i think you might have misunderstood what i wrote, just that his comparison was inaccurate.
like elodea said: use mines. well this works as long as the cost for PG is lowered to account for it.
I generally find them to be a weakness only in the early game, later on they become an asset. Which is fair enough honestly, if they were strong as soon as you dropped them they'd be a bit overpowered.
It'll probably improve once infestation gets properly implemented, and actually grows stronger the longer you leave it.
"PG is supposed to be a counter to alien's inherent mobility, and if we dont have the means to ensure our mobility is even CONTESTED then you need to substitute it by making turret farms / large bases more economical so we can protect them proactively. "
<i>i dont think you are re creating a practical scenario in your head.</i>
1) one fully upgraded fade is all it takes at a slight angle. (we can go in a server i host and i'll demonstrate. trust me, i exploit this all the time)
2)"if you allow it to get into that position youve already lost it" currently it is not economical as i mentioned to build a turret farm every time, try it, see if your team wins. if not a turret farm, then by definition its "already lost" unless you have a team of marines protecting it... but then wtf is the point in mobility if your position is <b>STATIC</b>?
3) the aliens arent "going behind your lines" PG are set up mostly on the frontlines near or in contested areas, else they are in a location the enemy is unaware of - but in all of these situations there doesnt already exist an established base to protect it so were back to the same issue.
4) the issue, as i state is not that it should be an invulnerable item immune from attack, but rather <b>YOU CANT EVEN CONTEST OR DEFEND IT</b> currently unless its nearby something like a base or another PG. one turret? please. you just wasted 25 tres. (15 pg, 10 turret)
@Wheee: i have no idea what point you are trying to make, sorry. i think you might have misunderstood what i wrote, just that his comparison was inaccurate.
like elodea said: use mines. well this works as long as the cost for PG is lowered to account for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you not defend it? If you have a marine there, he's defending it. If that marine dies, you've lost your point. Why should you retain your forward base when the aliens have just taken it?
P.S. You can get around all of this by simply nano shielding a marine and sending him through first.
Easy counters are already in place to this "problem" and I don't see anything that needs to be changed.
Marines can defend bases really well, the problem is that they have to defend their entire territory at once.
If you add more defenses, you make their bases invulnerable, so the trick is not to add more defence, but to focus the defence at their bases.
If marines could just completely block off areas of the map, so that aliens just cannot get through, and FORCE them to go through their bases, they would be able to control territory perfectly well.
The problem is that at the moment, you have to defend every extractor, every power node, every vent and corridor to keep aliens at bay, what a slow moving force should be able to do is plonk a base down <i>in the way</i> of the enemy, and force them to go through it to get to things behind it. At the moment there is no behind, you just run around the base and go for the extractors. There are no battle lines and marines desperately need battle lines to be really effective.
when I do this it always works because they're letting it work...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why no one's there? could have been because the skulk killed the defender(s), could be because the comm wanted too much aggression, could be for any variety of reasons that the skulk lives to camp the phase gate. He could have even snuck in with cloak and waited til all the marines were off on the front lines, idk. it just happens. yes, mines can delay a skulk, but you can kill the mines or set them off without dying.
1 Hydra placed correctly is still a laughing stock :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the early game opportunity cost of putting down one hydra is much lower than one sentry. For example, the effective cost of the first sentry/hydra are as follows
Sentry = 20 (robo) + 10 (sentry) = 30 TRes
Hydra = 10 (gorge) + 3 (minicyst) + 10 (hydra) = 23 PRes
However, when you compare that cost to how much TRes/PRes each start out, its clear that sentries are simply more cost prohibitive as an early game defense except for an alien team with 1 player
Sentry = 30/50 = 60% starting TRes
Hydra = 23/(1x25) = 92.0% starting PRes (for a 1 player team)
Hydra = 23/(2x25) = 46.0% starting PRes (for a 2 player team)
Hydra = 23/(3x25) = 30.7% starting PRes (for a 3 player team)
Hydra = 23/(4x25) = 23.0% starting PRes (for a 4 player team)
Hydra = 23/(5x25) = 18.4% starting PRes (for a 5 player team)
Hydra = 23/(6x25) = 15.3% starting PRes (for a 6 player team)
Hydra = 23/(7x25) = 13.1% starting PRes (for a 7 player team)
Hydra = 23/(8x25) = 11.5% starting PRes (for a 8 player team)
Hydra = 23/(9x25) = 10.2% starting PRes (for a 9 player team)
In effect, hydras should be weaker than sentries because of the different in opportunity cost for dropping either early game. Also, matches devolved into hydra spamming when they were cheaper/more effective (alpha/early beta builds).
Marines can defend bases really well, the problem is that they have to defend their entire territory at once.
If you add more defenses, you make their bases invulnerable, so the trick is not to add more defence, but to focus the defence at their bases.
If marines could just completely block off areas of the map, so that aliens just cannot get through, and FORCE them to go through their bases, they would be able to control territory perfectly well.
The problem is that at the moment, you have to defend every extractor, every power node, every vent and corridor to keep aliens at bay, what a slow moving force should be able to do is plonk a base down <i>in the way</i> of the enemy, and force them to go through it to get to things behind it. At the moment there is no behind, you just run around the base and go for the extractors. There are no battle lines and marines desperately need battle lines to be really effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I don't know what games you have played, but I clearly see Battle lines all the time. A good example is Crushing Machine on Mineshaft, that room is the main control point for the map, The aliens always try to make sure the marines can't get into there and the Kharaa need that room since its a Hive location and there is another Hive location right next door. It is a clear battle line.
Summit would be cross roads or Flight Control, Tram would be elevator transfer or Repair Room...
The Marines having to defend their entire territory at once isn't any different than the aliens. Marines can just as easily get behind the aliens front lines and chop a cyst chain, which can result in the loss of a lot more than a single structure.
Why should the marines be able to build a "Wall" and keep the aliens away from any point of the map, this isn't starcraft 2, these are real people not bots, being forced into a base and picked off isn't fun.
Try putting Mines on everything and you'll find that every RT you lose will cost them 3 skulks.
P.S. You can get around all of this by simply nano shielding a marine and sending him through first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sigh.
so, my options are to take 1 marine out of the fight so he stays there and defends it?
Not only do i lose one to the frontlines/fight but do you really think that one marine (Even with nanoshield) will survive my fade? once again i challenge your theory to practicality in a server, good sir. (i will block you, i will swipe you, i will dodge you, and then i will destroy your structure.)
lastly, its not a forward "base" if its just a single and alone, susceptible, blockable, spawn camped building. thats not a base. thats a highly vulnerable waste of res unless you intend on using it for some temporary purpose like hive rush etc.
Chris0132 is very correct in his post regarding frontlines for marines not being economical at all. we dont need turrets stronger, we dont need more of them in a room, we just need to be able to friggin purchase them when/where needed so we can get on with our expansion.
personally, when i PG to an area i make a point to defend that area with turrets, mines and marines. It seriously dissuades the average rogue alien. I sacrifice momentum the alien team is still utilizing, but it can pay off in pugs when the alien team does not coordinate. In organized matches you can throw this tactic out the window completely, its a highly useful yet highly vulnerable structure that will be built by itself and unfortunately, it generally becomes disposable. (read: destroyed)
all i suggest is allow the player to <b>contest</b> the area he is <b>attempting </b>to hold, by not allowing the aliens to
a)block the path so teleporting is useless (you just teleport back to base because you cant move)
b)allow a marine to go through the pg without getting hit until he is on the other side and able to fire. (Theres a delay just like spawning, where aliens get a "Free" hit before you screen updates)
otherwise, make it more economical to establish frontlines like Chris0132 stated. (Which i like more, personally)
Which is to say, nothing, and you 30 pres or so to surround the RT with mines.
so, my options are to take 1 marine out of the fight so he stays there and defends it?
Not only do i lose one to the frontlines/fight but do you really think that one marine (Even with nanoshield) will survive my fade? once again i challenge your theory to practicality in a server, good sir. (i will block you, i will swipe you, i will dodge you, and then i will destroy your structure.)
lastly, its not a forward "base" if its just a single and alone, susceptible, blockable, spawn camped building. thats not a base. thats a highly vulnerable waste of res unless you intend on using it for some temporary purpose like hive rush etc.
Chris0132 is very correct in his post regarding frontlines for marines not being economical at all. we dont need turrets stronger, we dont need more of them in a room, we just need to be able to friggin purchase them when/where needed so we can get on with our expansion.
personally, when i PG to an area i make a point to defend that area with turrets, mines and marines. It seriously dissuades the average rogue alien. I sacrifice momentum the alien team is still utilizing, but it can pay off in pugs when the alien team does not coordinate. In organized matches you can throw this tactic out the window completely, its a highly useful yet highly vulnerable structure that will be built by itself and unfortunately, it generally becomes disposable. (read: destroyed)
all i suggest is allow the player to <b>contest</b> the area he is <b>attempting </b>to hold, by not allowing the aliens to
a)block the path so teleporting is useless (you just teleport back to base because you cant move)
b)allow a marine to go through the pg without getting hit until he is on the other side and able to fire. (Theres a delay just like spawning, where aliens get a "Free" hit before you screen updates)
otherwise, make it more economical to establish frontlines like Chris0132 stated. (Which i like more, personally)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't "attempting to hold" an area if you're phasing into a room which the aliens have already taken control of. That's called "attempting to retake" which should be hard.
1 alien can't block a phase gate unless you're exploiting the broken collision, which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about fades standing on one side of the gate and blocking you from leaving that side. That is legit and should be left in as such. If you lose control over the exit of your phase gate, then you should have to work to regain control.
It's no different than egg camping or IP camping.
Marines = Better defense but less atack
Aliens = Better Atack but less defence
The IP spawn rate is WAY high at the moment. It should be slowed by 2 seconds, back to where it was.
Controversially, 2 flamer marines at an unattended hive can kill all the eggs in a matter of seconds and make it so that nothing can spawn there for minutes.