<!--quoteo(post=1910394:date=Mar 6 2012, 05:24 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 6 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->schimmel: that idea of yours also helps dissuade early skulk rushes! if your team failed, it would have major consequences besides eggs.
i like it! +1
@koruyo there were two different talks going on here, grissi and swalk talking about mass lifeforms /tech and swalk and I were discussing why i disagree with untying tech from the hive. (both were mentioned in the OP)
edit: contributing to that other topic,<b> i suggest Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you personally assisted in, not from map control. map control contributes only to TECH.</b> Flayra once talked about something similar in the design log that got me thinking, on 8/29/2011 in concern to stalemates (turtling) "Give points incrementally when damaging structures, instead of only when it’s destroyed (encourages teamwork, but this is soft)." i think that building items and destroying items in the game that help the team along should go to the player, so that not everyone is able to purchase that shotgun - only those contributing to the teamwork the most. this could be simple buffs like being in a group of 3 or more for x time, or welding, or simply <i>hurting </i>the hive. the idea is not RFK its ResourcesForTeamwork, RFT. These things are already being pooled and recorded mostly anyhow, like when you see that +5 for building something.
Oh and it obviously not only helps stalemates, but also solves Mass Tech, increases teamwork significantly and scales with players!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do like the idea. An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". It is a soft fix and will help i think. Might even help give that extra incentive for pubbers to build stuff.
Even in the competitive scene the "base b*tch" would be rocking the first shotgun lol. Quite a change. Putting RpK back in the game might help further this along as well.
------
Another thing about this discussion is Shotguns themselves. They are the end all be all in weaponry and were only balanced out by HMGs. When talking about Tier 1 i like the shotgun and how you have to get it. There are so many choices as a comm in what to go for first: Phase Tech, MT, Weapons 1, Armor 1, Shotguns, Advanced Armory, another IP. It is a little overwhelming for me personally as a noob comm but i muddled through it (also was talking about RTs lol had to change the new name).
Problem is Alien side. Lerks are too fragile, skulks have movement issues (that are being worked on), and gorges blow through Pres like nothing which forces them to stay in their role. Skulks are bigger and a lot easier to hit as is the case with the lerks. Aliens get stomped before 2nd hive if comm'd correctly.
This is where i look to the competitive scene to see what is going one. People generally know what they are doing and what their options are. You still have your uber players but they can no longer off set a game by that huge a margin. How do competitive players deal with Hive 1? Rush Hive 2 and struggle till then?
edit* Another BIG problem is this game was balanced when marines lagged so bad they couldnt hit anything. Aliens were toned down.. well marines can AIM now lol... Tone it BACK. Feature complete will help too. Which will throw everything else out of whack. Feature complete before balance please =)
<!--quoteo(post=1910606:date=Mar 6 2012, 02:49 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 6 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While marines certainly can and have won even if the aliens get the 2nd hive up, their chances of doing so drop drastically. Basically, if the marine team is skillstacked, then no amount of higher lifeforms/better upgrades are going to save the aliens. The point being that with near evenly matched teams, 2nd hive = inevitable alien victory in 99% of games.
However, it may take till the aliens get a 3rd/4th/5th hive before they can truly end the game. Even bad marines teams are still very capable of turtling in marine start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, that is because there are so many new players. There are probably 3 or 4 people, tops, in most of the games I play that even understand what is going on. It's hard to fight fades when less than a third of your team even knows where the fade is.
When people get better, they too will understand that fades are not the end of the game.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Gorgeous.. he just stated that "nearly evenly matched teams"... so it has nothing to do with "new" players if the skill levels are even. This is especially true coming from a <b>playtester </b>who is probably speaking from experience observing matches between players who play <b>all day.</b>
its an issue, and is related to the other topic similar to this one: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910725" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910725</a>
i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. RPS, my friend :)
I would so love just 10 minutes of talk time with Flayra to discuss the decisions he made regarding tech points from May of last year, I get all the reasons for the changes, but think he may not have considered a great deal of consequences that came with them and I have a lot of great talking points I'd love to share!
<!--quoteo(post=1910684:date=Mar 6 2012, 02:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly, that is because there are so many new players. There are probably 3 or 4 people, tops, in most of the games I play that even understand what is going on. It's hard to fight fades when less than a third of your team even knows where the fade is.
When people get better, they too will understand that fades are not the end of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree. Since "Gorilla" there has been a massive influx of new people. Sometimes i have to switch between 4 or 5 servers before i see anyone i recognize. It's fun to see so many people experiencing the game for the first time but the balance goes out the window if more than a few new players are on any one team. I don't think natural selection will ever have a short learning curve but it is fun right away even if you have no clue what you are doing.
With the whole Reddit thing I've met a LOT of new players in the last couple of days. That'll settle out.
One of the major problems I see with map control from the alien point of view is utter reliance on cyst chains. Especially in the early game, hive energy is incredibly rationed, and some of the legs you need to run cysts down (Tram server room to, well, ANY nearby res node?) are ridiculously long (in Tram, the two closest res nodes are also the nearest tech points!). This forces there to be even more gorges if you want rapid, aggressive expansion, which reduces the number of combat lifeforms running around and so makes it easier for the marines to harass your infrastructure. This also makes attempts to tweak balance incredibly dependent upon map design, as more spread out maps (or ones with super-annoying geometry that leads to inefficient placement of cysts to cover distance) become inherently harder for the aliens to control territory on.
A single marine making a point out of ninja'ing into your backfield on maps like Summit and blowing through a few cysts can dramatically slow down your ability to spend res early in the game, because you're spending so much energy on cysts (it's not uncommon, on a hard-fought game, to have over a hundred res but no hive energy). A bad start location for aliens (like Server Room) makes it ridiculously easy for the marines to chop up your cyst chains by plinking at them with pistols from down the hallway or a single suicide run with a rifle to shred 2-4 before the skulks come to stop you, and then it's either some prez off a gorge (who needs to spend it by the bucketful to get anything useful out of hydras) or a bunch of hive energy to make sure that your expansion stays alive. Marines don't have this problem, as their expansions simply consist of an easily rebuildable power node and a res tower that can even be remotely recycled to recover most of it's value, not taking a single marine off the firing line until you're ready to rebuild the res tower; their only loss is a small percentage of the invested res, and the res-over-time that they would have gathered until reconstruction. Aliens lose the entire cost of the res tower, the res over time they would have gathered, AND whatever energy or prez were spent re-establishing cyst access to that area.
<!--quoteo(post=1910730:date=Mar 6 2012, 07:16 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 6 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorgeous.. he just stated that "nearly evenly matched teams"... so it has nothing to do with "new" players if the skill levels are even. This is especially true coming from a <b>playtester </b>who is probably speaking from experience observing matches between players who play <b>all day.</b>
its an issue, and is related to the other topic similar to this one: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910725" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910725</a>
i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. RPS, my friend :)
I would so love just 10 minutes of talk time with Flayra to discuss the decisions he made regarding tech points from May of last year, I get all the reasons for the changes, but think he may not have considered a great deal of consequences that came with them and I have a lot of great talking points I'd love to share!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It absolutely does matter the skill level you're playing at.
"Bad" fades will own "bad" marines all day long. "Good" fades are rather even against "good" marines, assuming proper upgrades (armor 2, shotgun).
And lerks are generally lack luster this patch, but good lerks can 1v1 any marine and frequently 1v2 in certain rooms. Lerks are the best harassing // quick response unit in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1910730:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:16 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 6 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would so love just 10 minutes of talk time with Flayra to discuss the decisions he made regarding tech points from May of last year, I get all the reasons for the changes, but think he may not have considered a great deal of consequences that came with them and I have a lot of great talking points I'd love to share!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u>hehe, i am actually glad tech points for marines was done away with. I like the job of marines denying alien expansion and i think they have enough incentive to lock down potential hive locations.</u>** I personally think there are too many tech points on these small maps. I like the NS1 model of 4 tech points period. That way marines had to gamble on one hive location or the other and really lock down both.
Maps were made without the random spawning in mind (which i hate random spawning for rines) and will be fixed in the bigger maps that are promised or community maps. A lot has gone in to this game and so much has changed though some things are slow to catch up properly. Poor dev team... a lot to do and summer isnt coming any slower.
Edit ** Disregard underlined. I didnt like the 2 comm idea. Tech points would be an interesting addition if there were only 4 tech points as stated above. Either fight for that second or both get your second easily, but it forces conflict and the destruction of a base to gain #3 (because we all know it is over when #3 pops. Plus having 1 tech vs 3 could deny the 1 team of the 2nd tech node's tech shortening the game further.). I do like that idea... Just for the love of gorges no two comms lol or tasers hahaha
<!--quoteo(post=1910739:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:33 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 6 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I totally agree. Since "Gorilla" there has been a massive influx of new people. Sometimes i have to switch between 4 or 5 servers before i see anyone i recognize. It's fun to see so many people experiencing the game for the first time but the balance goes out the window if more than a few new players are on any one team. I don't think natural selection will ever have a short learning curve but it is fun right away even if you have no clue what you are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A strong Comm can help this now on both sides. I make it a point to talk on my mic and get other to do the same. Once you have a friendly banter going on everyone starts talking and cooperating. The comm should really always have a mic. Helps SO MUCH.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1909884:date=Mar 4 2012, 06:21 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 4 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nano shield was specifically buffed for this reason, it says so right in the changelog. Commanders who don't use it have no right to complain.
Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Attack is the best defense.
I agree with GORGEous that Fades are not nearly as powerful as people perceive them to be, especially when you consider their cost. Especially if you have the commander shielding and dropping healthpacks on the Fade's target. Most of the time fades dominate it is because the rines don't have armor 2 and therefore get 2-shot instead of 3-shot by the Fade (or vast skill discrepancies).
I think Lerks are great right now though as far as their effectiveness, but they need a lot of work to make the class more interesting. The most effective way I've found to play a Lerk is to forget that I have gas and just constantly spike rines from a healthy distance while they are distracted by Gorges and Skulks. Whenever I die on a Lerk it's because I got bored of plinking from the rear and charge in like an idiot to get a shotgun spike kill or some gas down.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910769:date=Mar 6 2012, 05:18 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It absolutely does matter the skill level you're playing at. "Bad" fades will own "bad" marines all day long. "Good" fades are rather even against "good" marines, assuming proper upgrades (armor 2, shotgun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ::facepalm:: that example you gave is biased, in that it is comparing higher life forms vs lower inappropriately. just because a group of marines can kill an onos with LMG does not mean it is the onos' equal, tech wise, thats just an example of teamwork aka Skill. The fade's equivalent is <b><u>multiple </u></b>marines, preferably with lvl 2 armor and shotguns. a single marine will, and should always get owned if it's properly used. thats a <u>50 res lifeform</u>.
does this mean i cant kill a fade single handedly? no i do it all the time, and it happens to me all the time when i play it <b>but that's a difference in skill</b> and what Scardybob is saying is <u><b>IF </b>the skills are evenly matched, 2nd hive up means gg for marines</u>.
and in my opinion a "bad" fade will die and/or not "own" anything. being bad at fade means 1) you didnt blink away to safety 2) you didnt do any damage and therefore didnt "own" anything, you're a hit and run life form unlike marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1911077:date=Mar 7 2012, 05:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->::facepalm:: that example you gave is biased, in that it is comparing higher life forms vs lower inappropriately. just because a group of marines can kill an onos with LMG does not mean it is the onos' equal, tech wise, thats just an example of teamwork aka Skill. The fade's equivalent is <b><u>multiple </u></b>marines, preferably with lvl 2 armor and shotguns. a single marine will, and should always get owned if it's properly used. thats a <u>50 res lifeform</u>.
does this mean i cant kill a fade single handedly? no i do it all the time, and it happens to me all the time when i play it <b>but that's a difference in skill</b> and what Scardybob is saying is <u><b>IF </b>the skills are evenly matched, 2nd hive up means gg for marines</u>.
and in my opinion a "bad" fade will die and/or not "own" anything. being bad at fade means 1) you didnt blink away to safety 2) you didnt do any damage and therefore didnt "own" anything, you're a hit and run life form unlike marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I didn't bias anything there. I'm talking about a bad fade versus bad marines or a good fade versus good marines. The fades seem unbeatable against bad marines. The good marines know how to counter and defend against even good marines. Alien 2nd hive is NOT GG for the marines. If you honestly believe this, then you should really put some more thought into the counters of fades. Right now in many pub games, because people are bad, fades are the end for marines.
To put it another way: Fades have a high skill floor (ie fades are easy for new players) in fighting against fades, Marines have a low skill floor (ie marines are hard against fades for new players)
Both have at least a moderate amount of depth, as it is hard to judge at this point in the game. But I am confident that as new players get better at marines, their relative strength against fades will continue to improve.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<i>"Right now in many pub games, because people are bad, fades are the end for marines."</i>
then how do you explain organized matches, where people are not "bad", and even often "evenly matched"? once aliens get fades its <i>usually</i> gg. neither of us is stating its always gonna go this route. but its most definitely the trend. (stats dont lie) too much occurs when a 2nd is put up, not just a fade, its a huge tipping point.
If you don't see this, its because you are using pug players as an example, hoping they learn to play instead of using "evenly matched scrims/playtests" as the baseline to compare and analyze with.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1911138:date=Mar 8 2012, 01:04 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 8 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"Right now in many pub games, because people are bad, fades are the end for marines."</i>
then how do you explain organized matches, where people are not "bad", and even often "evenly matched"? once aliens get fades its <i>usually</i> gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can safely say this is due to a deafeatist attitude. We have had it in duplex and we are one of the more skilled/disciplined teams.
Even in matches where we were struggling against skulks/lerks we could still easily dispatch fades once aliens had the second hive up. The problem was two fold:
1) Some of our team decided we had lost and practically gave up once we saw fades.
2) The marine strategy required pre and post 2nd hive is very different. Without much experience it was tough for marine teams to learn and adapt to deal with aliens with a 2nd hive.
These days we fare much better, with a clear strategy for the occasion and a more postitive attitude from the team. It will take public players a much longer time to develop to the same point. Life is tough for fades at the moment, with even two marines that can aim well they die almost instantly.
i think one of the biggest things that turn things in favor of aliens isn't so much that fades are overpowered in and of themselves (they aren't really), it's that fades force marines to go on the defensive. If marines continue aggression, they risk losing all their advanced weaponry (too far from a pg/spawn point so can't recover dropped weapons), which means that they have no way to combat fades. thus, they lose all their undefended res nodes, which means if the marines don't do something drastic like kill all of the alien team fades, they are eventually ground down through res starvation.
Marines simply need to add pressure <i>somewhere</i>. That keeps the aliens pinned down or at least focused. If you dont pressure the aliens it doesnt matter if fades are out or not, you will lose res nodes to skulks and lose the game. Marines dont have to be too concerned with base defense later game because one beacon takes care of any serious attempt.
While I've only scrimmed a few times, it seems like bile bomb is about a million times more effective than fades at insta-winning the game when you get to 2 hives. In pub play, the power of 2 hives is that you can crank out so many cysts/drifters and compensate for how ridiculously punishing both those mechanics are right now. It also lets your players spawn in 2 places instead of 1, which compensates for what an awful mechanic the egg spawning system is. Without even considering the hive 2 abilities/lifeforms, it's necessary to get a second hive just to stamp out the incredibly silly cyst/drifter/egg mechanics, all of which put the aliens team on a slippery slope faster than you can say 'wtf op'
Without getting into it really deeply, I think fades and shotguns are intuitively good at fighting each other. Add flamethrowers and commander spells to the mix, and things get hard for the fade (so he brings friends too). The only time I see fades go on a big streak anymore is when they're always killing single marines or 2-3 shotgunners at a time are missing every shot somehow. This is what I see when I play NS2, and I play it a lot. Am I hallucinating?
I think fades are not that bad later game balance wise, its just when you are fighting a1 or a0 marines. The fade needs to be adjusted so that it is not a complete steamroll before a2. It seems that whatever kind of damage the fade swipe does is kind of OP itself, as I believe it can one hit a marine without armor. I think the damage in NS1 worked well, which was 80 a swipe.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1911406:date=Mar 8 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 8 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think fades are not that bad later game balance wise, its just when you are fighting a1 or a0 marines. The fade needs to be adjusted so that it is not a complete steamroll before a2. It seems that whatever kind of damage the fade swipe does is kind of OP itself, as I believe it can one hit a marine without armor. I think the damage in NS1 worked well, which was 80 a swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the attack rate was much higher in ns1. but i agree, it's a big problem that the fade needs only 2 swipes (before the swipe delay was added you could not even notice the fade before the 2nd swipe arrived due to latency -> perceived instant death)
<!--quoteo(post=1911403:date=Mar 8 2012, 04:50 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 8 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only time I see fades go on a big streak anymore is when they're always killing single marines or 2-3 shotgunners at a time are missing every shot somehow. This is what I see when I play NS2, and I play it a lot. Am I hallucinating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's about what I see, especially if the Comm is on the ball and has armor 2 online. Giant roaming fade parties can be death on two legs for a disorganized or scattered marine team.
I dont think the fade rof was that much higher in NS1, however you had much lower interp settings and high update rate, so you saw your death coming more accurately. I do think that the aliens lack some power mid game with the 2nd hive against relatively comparably teched marines, but also i do not see people playing with the teamwork and coordination you saw in NS1. I do think that the lerk really needs ranged spores and the crop duster ones, as mid to late game gas is extremely important for coordinate alien attacks, but is almost certain death for the lerk against decent marines.
Map control? Pressure the hive and your RTs will be left alone. If they don't leave your RTs alone then your pressure on the hive will mean it dies, you win.
<!--quoteo(post=1911466:date=Mar 8 2012, 10:20 PM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ Mar 8 2012, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Map control? Pressure the hive and your RTs will be left alone. If they don't leave your RTs alone then your pressure on the hive will mean it dies, you win.
The end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but that sounds boring. you really want to play a video game where every time you play you do exactly the same thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1911535:date=Mar 9 2012, 09:41 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Mar 9 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but that sounds boring. you really want to play a video game where every time you play you do exactly the same thing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most things written like that sound boring on paper, I could do a similar write up with starcraft how simple the basics are.
Its all about how you execute them that makes the game fun, there are many ways to keep pressure on the alien team and to maintain map control.
<!--quoteo(post=1911608:date=Mar 9 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Mar 9 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most things written like that sound boring on paper, I could do a similar write up with starcraft how simple the basics are.
Its all about how you execute them that makes the game fun, there are many ways to keep pressure on the alien team and to maintain map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's so much depth in this game already that nobody has explored half of it yet, and yet people want to add more mechanics
why? because they want fisher price mechanics like completely opaque spores that do 95% of the work for them.
Comments
that idea of yours also helps dissuade early skulk rushes!
if your team failed, it would have major consequences besides eggs.
i like it! +1
@koruyo
there were two different talks going on here, grissi and swalk talking about mass lifeforms /tech and swalk and I were discussing why i disagree with untying tech from the hive. (both were mentioned in the OP)
edit: contributing to that other topic,<b> i suggest Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you personally assisted in, not from map control. map control contributes only to TECH.</b>
Flayra once talked about something similar in the design log that got me thinking, on 8/29/2011 in concern to stalemates (turtling) "Give points incrementally when damaging structures, instead of only when it’s destroyed (encourages teamwork, but this is soft)."
i think that building items and destroying items in the game that help the team along should go to the player, so that not everyone is able to purchase that shotgun - only those contributing to the teamwork the most. this could be simple buffs like being in a group of 3 or more for x time, or welding, or simply <i>hurting </i>the hive. the idea is not RFK its ResourcesForTeamwork, RFT. These things are already being pooled and recorded mostly anyhow, like when you see that +5 for building something.
Oh and it obviously not only helps stalemates, but also solves Mass Tech, increases teamwork significantly and scales with players!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do like the idea. An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". It is a soft fix and will help i think. Might even help give that extra incentive for pubbers to build stuff.
Even in the competitive scene the "base b*tch" would be rocking the first shotgun lol. Quite a change. Putting RpK back in the game might help further this along as well.
------
Another thing about this discussion is Shotguns themselves. They are the end all be all in weaponry and were only balanced out by HMGs. When talking about Tier 1 i like the shotgun and how you have to get it. There are so many choices as a comm in what to go for first: Phase Tech, MT, Weapons 1, Armor 1, Shotguns, Advanced Armory, another IP. It is a little overwhelming for me personally as a noob comm but i muddled through it (also was talking about RTs lol had to change the new name).
Problem is Alien side. Lerks are too fragile, skulks have movement issues (that are being worked on), and gorges blow through Pres like nothing which forces them to stay in their role. Skulks are bigger and a lot easier to hit as is the case with the lerks. Aliens get stomped before 2nd hive if comm'd correctly.
This is where i look to the competitive scene to see what is going one. People generally know what they are doing and what their options are. You still have your uber players but they can no longer off set a game by that huge a margin. How do competitive players deal with Hive 1? Rush Hive 2 and struggle till then?
edit* Another BIG problem is this game was balanced when marines lagged so bad they couldnt hit anything. Aliens were toned down.. well marines can AIM now lol... Tone it BACK. Feature complete will help too. Which will throw everything else out of whack. Feature complete before balance please =)
However, it may take till the aliens get a 3rd/4th/5th hive before they can truly end the game. Even bad marines teams are still very capable of turtling in marine start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, that is because there are so many new players. There are probably 3 or 4 people, tops, in most of the games I play that even understand what is going on. It's hard to fight fades when less than a third of your team even knows where the fade is.
When people get better, they too will understand that fades are not the end of the game.
its an issue, and is related to the other topic similar to this one:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910725" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910725</a>
i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. RPS, my friend :)
I would so love just 10 minutes of talk time with Flayra to discuss the decisions he made regarding tech points from May of last year, I get all the reasons for the changes, but think he may not have considered a great deal of consequences that came with them and I have a lot of great talking points I'd love to share!
When people get better, they too will understand that fades are not the end of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree. Since "Gorilla" there has been a massive influx of new people. Sometimes i have to switch between 4 or 5 servers before i see anyone i recognize. It's fun to see so many people experiencing the game for the first time but the balance goes out the window if more than a few new players are on any one team. I don't think natural selection will ever have a short learning curve but it is fun right away even if you have no clue what you are doing.
One of the major problems I see with map control from the alien point of view is utter reliance on cyst chains. Especially in the early game, hive energy is incredibly rationed, and some of the legs you need to run cysts down (Tram server room to, well, ANY nearby res node?) are ridiculously long (in Tram, the two closest res nodes are also the nearest tech points!). This forces there to be even more gorges if you want rapid, aggressive expansion, which reduces the number of combat lifeforms running around and so makes it easier for the marines to harass your infrastructure. This also makes attempts to tweak balance incredibly dependent upon map design, as more spread out maps (or ones with super-annoying geometry that leads to inefficient placement of cysts to cover distance) become inherently harder for the aliens to control territory on.
A single marine making a point out of ninja'ing into your backfield on maps like Summit and blowing through a few cysts can dramatically slow down your ability to spend res early in the game, because you're spending so much energy on cysts (it's not uncommon, on a hard-fought game, to have over a hundred res but no hive energy). A bad start location for aliens (like Server Room) makes it ridiculously easy for the marines to chop up your cyst chains by plinking at them with pistols from down the hallway or a single suicide run with a rifle to shred 2-4 before the skulks come to stop you, and then it's either some prez off a gorge (who needs to spend it by the bucketful to get anything useful out of hydras) or a bunch of hive energy to make sure that your expansion stays alive. Marines don't have this problem, as their expansions simply consist of an easily rebuildable power node and a res tower that can even be remotely recycled to recover most of it's value, not taking a single marine off the firing line until you're ready to rebuild the res tower; their only loss is a small percentage of the invested res, and the res-over-time that they would have gathered until reconstruction. Aliens lose the entire cost of the res tower, the res over time they would have gathered, AND whatever energy or prez were spent re-establishing cyst access to that area.
its an issue, and is related to the other topic similar to this one:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910725" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910725</a>
i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. RPS, my friend :)
I would so love just 10 minutes of talk time with Flayra to discuss the decisions he made regarding tech points from May of last year, I get all the reasons for the changes, but think he may not have considered a great deal of consequences that came with them and I have a lot of great talking points I'd love to share!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It absolutely does matter the skill level you're playing at.
"Bad" fades will own "bad" marines all day long. "Good" fades are rather even against "good" marines, assuming proper upgrades (armor 2, shotgun).
And lerks are generally lack luster this patch, but good lerks can 1v1 any marine and frequently 1v2 in certain rooms. Lerks are the best harassing // quick response unit in the game.
<u>hehe, i am actually glad tech points for marines was done away with. I like the job of marines denying alien expansion and i think they have enough incentive to lock down potential hive locations.</u>** I personally think there are too many tech points on these small maps. I like the NS1 model of 4 tech points period. That way marines had to gamble on one hive location or the other and really lock down both.
Maps were made without the random spawning in mind (which i hate random spawning for rines) and will be fixed in the bigger maps that are promised or community maps. A lot has gone in to this game and so much has changed though some things are slow to catch up properly. Poor dev team... a lot to do and summer isnt coming any slower.
Edit ** Disregard underlined. I didnt like the 2 comm idea. Tech points would be an interesting addition if there were only 4 tech points as stated above. Either fight for that second or both get your second easily, but it forces conflict and the destruction of a base to gain #3 (because we all know it is over when #3 pops. Plus having 1 tech vs 3 could deny the 1 team of the 2nd tech node's tech shortening the game further.). I do like that idea... Just for the love of gorges no two comms lol or tasers hahaha
<!--quoteo(post=1910739:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:33 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 6 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I totally agree. Since "Gorilla" there has been a massive influx of new people. Sometimes i have to switch between 4 or 5 servers before i see anyone i recognize. It's fun to see so many people experiencing the game for the first time but the balance goes out the window if more than a few new players are on any one team. I don't think natural selection will ever have a short learning curve but it is fun right away even if you have no clue what you are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A strong Comm can help this now on both sides. I make it a point to talk on my mic and get other to do the same. Once you have a friendly banter going on everyone starts talking and cooperating. The comm should really always have a mic. Helps SO MUCH.
Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Attack is the best defense.
I think Lerks are great right now though as far as their effectiveness, but they need a lot of work to make the class more interesting. The most effective way I've found to play a Lerk is to forget that I have gas and just constantly spike rines from a healthy distance while they are distracted by Gorges and Skulks. Whenever I die on a Lerk it's because I got bored of plinking from the rear and charge in like an idiot to get a shotgun spike kill or some gas down.
"Bad" fades will own "bad" marines all day long. "Good" fades are rather even against "good" marines, assuming proper upgrades (armor 2, shotgun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
::facepalm::
that example you gave is biased, in that it is comparing higher life forms vs lower inappropriately. just because a group of marines can kill an onos with LMG does not mean it is the onos' equal, tech wise, thats just an example of teamwork aka Skill. The fade's equivalent is <b><u>multiple </u></b>marines, preferably with lvl 2 armor and shotguns. a single marine will, and should always get owned if it's properly used. thats a <u>50 res lifeform</u>.
does this mean i cant kill a fade single handedly? no i do it all the time, and it happens to me all the time when i play it <b>but that's a difference in skill</b> and what Scardybob is saying is <u><b>IF </b>the skills are evenly matched, 2nd hive up means gg for marines</u>.
and in my opinion a "bad" fade will die and/or not "own" anything. being bad at fade means 1) you didnt blink away to safety 2) you didnt do any damage and therefore didnt "own" anything, you're a hit and run life form unlike marines.
that example you gave is biased, in that it is comparing higher life forms vs lower inappropriately. just because a group of marines can kill an onos with LMG does not mean it is the onos' equal, tech wise, thats just an example of teamwork aka Skill. The fade's equivalent is <b><u>multiple </u></b>marines, preferably with lvl 2 armor and shotguns. a single marine will, and should always get owned if it's properly used. thats a <u>50 res lifeform</u>.
does this mean i cant kill a fade single handedly? no i do it all the time, and it happens to me all the time when i play it <b>but that's a difference in skill</b> and what Scardybob is saying is <u><b>IF </b>the skills are evenly matched, 2nd hive up means gg for marines</u>.
and in my opinion a "bad" fade will die and/or not "own" anything. being bad at fade means 1) you didnt blink away to safety 2) you didnt do any damage and therefore didnt "own" anything, you're a hit and run life form unlike marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I didn't bias anything there. I'm talking about a bad fade versus bad marines or a good fade versus good marines. The fades seem unbeatable against bad marines. The good marines know how to counter and defend against even good marines. Alien 2nd hive is NOT GG for the marines. If you honestly believe this, then you should really put some more thought into the counters of fades. Right now in many pub games, because people are bad, fades are the end for marines.
To put it another way:
Fades have a high skill floor (ie fades are easy for new players)
in fighting against fades, Marines have a low skill floor (ie marines are hard against fades for new players)
Both have at least a moderate amount of depth, as it is hard to judge at this point in the game. But I am confident that as new players get better at marines, their relative strength against fades will continue to improve.
then how do you explain organized matches, where people are not "bad", and even often "evenly matched"? once aliens get fades its <i>usually</i> gg.
neither of us is stating its always gonna go this route. but its most definitely the trend. (stats dont lie)
too much occurs when a 2nd is put up, not just a fade, its a huge tipping point.
If you don't see this, its because you are using pug players as an example, hoping they learn to play instead of using "evenly matched scrims/playtests" as the baseline to compare and analyze with.
then how do you explain organized matches, where people are not "bad", and even often "evenly matched"? once aliens get fades its <i>usually</i> gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can safely say this is due to a deafeatist attitude. We have had it in duplex and we are one of the more skilled/disciplined teams.
Even in matches where we were struggling against skulks/lerks we could still easily dispatch fades once aliens had the second hive up. The problem was two fold:
1) Some of our team decided we had lost and practically gave up once we saw fades.
2) The marine strategy required pre and post 2nd hive is very different. Without much experience it was tough for marine teams to learn and adapt to deal with aliens with a 2nd hive.
These days we fare much better, with a clear strategy for the occasion and a more postitive attitude from the team. It will take public players a much longer time to develop to the same point. Life is tough for fades at the moment, with even two marines that can aim well they die almost instantly.
In pub play, the power of 2 hives is that you can crank out so many cysts/drifters and compensate for how ridiculously punishing both those mechanics are right now. It also lets your players spawn in 2 places instead of 1, which compensates for what an awful mechanic the egg spawning system is. Without even considering the hive 2 abilities/lifeforms, it's necessary to get a second hive just to stamp out the incredibly silly cyst/drifter/egg mechanics, all of which put the aliens team on a slippery slope faster than you can say 'wtf op'
Without getting into it really deeply, I think fades and shotguns are intuitively good at fighting each other. Add flamethrowers and commander spells to the mix, and things get hard for the fade (so he brings friends too). The only time I see fades go on a big streak anymore is when they're always killing single marines or 2-3 shotgunners at a time are missing every shot somehow. This is what I see when I play NS2, and I play it a lot. Am I hallucinating?
the attack rate was much higher in ns1. but i agree, it's a big problem that the fade needs only 2 swipes (before the swipe delay was added you could not even notice the fade before the 2nd swipe arrived due to latency -> perceived instant death)
That's about what I see, especially if the Comm is on the ball and has armor 2 online. Giant roaming fade parties can be death on two legs for a disorganized or scattered marine team.
The end.
The end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but that sounds boring. you really want to play a video game where every time you play you do exactly the same thing?
Most things written like that sound boring on paper, I could do a similar write up with starcraft how simple the basics are.
Its all about how you execute them that makes the game fun, there are many ways to keep pressure on the alien team and to maintain map control.
Its all about how you execute them that makes the game fun, there are many ways to keep pressure on the alien team and to maintain map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's so much depth in this game already that nobody has explored half of it yet, and yet people want to add more mechanics
why? because they want fisher price mechanics like completely opaque spores that do 95% of the work for them.
prove me wrong.