Allowing Gorges to build
Orz
Join Date: 2010-03-24 Member: 71069Members
Join Date: 2010-03-24 Member: 71069Members
This has no doubt been asked and answered many times before, but will there definitely be no 'official' return to NS1-style Gorge gameplay? IE, being able to build res nodes and other structures. This was the most enjoyable aspect of being a Gorge, and to a larger extent playing Natural Selection at all - but now it's gone, and I believe it's not making a comeback.
Would simply giving Gorges the ability build stuff hamper gameplay that much?
Personally, I really wish it was back in the game, it would make it so much more enjoyable. What does everyone else think about it? Nobody cares anymore?
Would simply giving Gorges the ability build stuff hamper gameplay that much?
Personally, I really wish it was back in the game, it would make it so much more enjoyable. What does everyone else think about it? Nobody cares anymore?
Comments
Use to gorge straight away when the game started, build res nodes and chambers and you'd be helping the team heaps. Now in NS2 if you gorge straight away on game start, you can't do much but extend cysts, build hydra's which marines will laugh as they walk past, and heal skulks.
For example, by default, each Gorge can only build Mini-Cyst, Hydra, and Goo Wall (as they are designed to be built by him), and once the Alien Commander selects a Gorge (or cycle through players using new A. Comm. UI coming soon), he can pay TRes to unlock a structure for the Gorge to build.
The Gorge will be notified and in his build menu #4, 5, 6 will be available. Numbers depend on how many structures are determined for a Gorge to build; personally, I'd like the Crag, Shade, and Shift only, as to keep the Drifter vital for base expansion/res node capture/research structures.
Edit: Oh I just got a cute mental image for an alternative idea: when Commander assigns a structure for Gorge to build, a Drifter lands on the Gorge's back and the Gorge carries it wherever he likes. The Comm can detach the Drifter at any time to build on his own accord, for say if he changed his mind or if the Gorge is about to die...
Drifter attached = Gorge can build a Khamm buildable structure; No Drifter attached = no support structure building
Use to gorge straight away when the game started, build res nodes and chambers and you'd be helping the team heaps. Now in NS2 if you gorge straight away on game start, you can't do much but extend cysts, build hydra's which marines will laugh as they walk past, and heal skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is a problem/one of the reasons why it wasn't implemented in NS2, then again, surely this can be tweaked to make it work.
Undoubtedly, if UWE doesn't make it an official mode, then a modder will, but perhaps not as well as the original team could have done.
I think that the various field "chambers" a la NS1 would better serve the Gorge arsenal than the alien Comm. Actually, I think "mini-" versions of the chambers might work as well, though the "mini-" novelty might begin to feel a bit forced if overused.
Spit is useless also btw. I dont know am I bad aimer or what but I dont ever hit when spitting.
Atm gorge feels a bit weak, its structures are weak and only strong ability is bile bomb (ofc heal is good for your teammates and sometimes you can get a kill).
The way I would want to change gorge.
1. Spit - Its good self defence and without second hive you can do some damage from range. Still needs to be alot faster if you want to hit marines.
2. Build menu:
2.1 Mini-cyst - its fine.
2.2 Hydra - Make it more powerful. Would cost 15 PRES, more health/armor, wouldnt miss that much or never, would do more damage(?), infinite range or close to it so marines just cannot walk past it or kill it from range. Hydras are joke now, none fear em.
2.3 Goo-wall - Lets see.
2.4a Movement chamber - Able to teleport through movement/shift chambers and could be build anywhere on infestation. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to one per gorge and if gorge changes form/dies the chamber would die also. Too big to make it in vents.
2.4b Defence chamber - Would work same like crags. Anyway crags are bit too weak atm so a little buff would be in place. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to 2 per gorge.
2.4c Sensory chamber - Would work same like in NS. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to one per gorge.
-One of these 2.4 structures would be chosen. You wouldnt be able to build all of these as yourself but this would make it more reasonable to have more gorges. Also it would allow to change strategies as gorge. You could rechoose the way if you would evolve to gorge again, at the cost of 10 PRES and previous chambers would die.
3. Heal Spray - Its fine.
4. Bile Bomb - It may be too powerful. Nerf its splash radius, the damage is good imo.
Any thoughts? Or would people want something new than structures from old NS? :)
Gorges will fill the roles of
1. Healer (Heal Spray)
2. Infestation developer (Mini Cyst)
3. Offensive Area Denial (Hydra)
4. Defensive Area Denial (Goo-wall)
which should keep every Gorge player busy and happy.
Making mini cysts (at least the connected ones) free would be the right step.
2. Infestation - That role is fine also.
3. Offensive area - That is broken, even 10 hydras wont kill that much and just slow down marines but not control it. Its the cost of ONOS so they should do much much better.
4. Defensive area - Lets see, hard to discuss yet.
How it really goes.
Heal Spray - This skill is fun to use because it keeps you alive and teammates alive. Also it keeps your structures alive and annoys marines much. But the best part is that while it does damage to marines it heals you and everyone around <3 You are really the healer.
Cysts - At start your cysts help the commander, later when second hive is built they wont help that much. You just cannot expand further or alien commander has enough energy to spread infestation himself/herself. At this point you spam cysts just for fun. Althought its fun to spread infestation on walls etc so this is fine, gorge just lack of interesting structures to benefit from it.
Hydras - You cannot make these much at start and therefore a SINGLE marine can wipe your hydras because they just cannot hit anything. Nice to see when a single marine with rifle takes 2-3 hydras and you have lost 30 PRES? Not. Later you have perhaps made 10 hydras and if marines come with grenade launchers/ARCs your hydras are pretty much dead and they probably havent even killed anyone. If you really want them to work, alien commander has to make whips to throw grenades back but once those whips are dead your hydras are also dead. Hydras just slow down marines and they slow em down pretty much but its not that much fun to spam heal spray 24/7 near hydras just to keep them alive when marines are attacking em. It would be fun if they would kill those marines but they wont so you have to heal em just to slow down marines more, not fun imo. So its not offensive area denial, its defensive structure because it CANNOT kill anyone so therefore it cannot be offensive. Also after playing gorge often Im starting to hate hydras and dont make em anymore, they are waste of PRES and definitely not a fun structure if they cannot kill anyone.
Goo-wall - This perhaps would work if hydras would kill someone but I think this will become gorges number 1. spam ability, making goo-walls everywhere because hydras are useless.
You made it sound that things arent that bad how people let em sound, but there isnt much more to do than spam hydras and cysts. Where is the tactical part of being gorge? Decide aliens upgrades, making the hive, resources etc. I dont say that gorge has to work same like in NS but at least for me its not that fun atm and more I play as gorge, the more I hate it :/
This is far from nostalgia kicking. You can bypass gorges current problems, but it needs something yet. Giving even one tactical structure for gorge would be good. Quote from my post:
"2.4a Movement chamber - Able to teleport through movement/shift chambers and could be build anywhere on infestation. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to one per gorge and if gorge changes form/dies the chamber would die also. Too big to make it in vents.
2.4b Defence chamber - Would work same like crags. Anyway crags are bit too weak atm so a little buff would be in place. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to 2 per gorge.
2.4c Sensory chamber - Would work same like in NS. Would cost 15 PRES, limited to one per gorge.
-One of these 2.4 structures would be chosen. You wouldnt be able to build all of these as yourself but this would make it more reasonable to have more gorges. Also it would allow to change strategies as gorge. You could rechoose the way if you would evolve to gorge again, at the cost of 10 PRES and previous chambers would die."
Gorges wouldnt be able to choose techs, wouldnt be able to make harvesters/hives and so on. This would give something different tactics for gorges who are bored to only spam hydras and cysts. At least Im VERY bored to spam hydras and heal spray to keep em alive... Something like that I would want to have, not only being hydra/heal spray spammer.
I like the current gorge.But hydras are so to such an extend weak that i even cant descripe it.
Please make the spikes do more dmg or maybe make it that all three heads of the hydra shot a spike at the same time (maybe some upgraded version of hydra what the gorge or com can apply).
Increase the fire rate or give the spikes some kind of a short lasting poison which does small extra dmg to marines over time.
Give them more range or speed up the spikes.
And yes i would also like that the gorge could build small versions of crag, whip and shade....why he got the mini cyst then ? what is the problem if alien commander and gorge can build structures (RTs and Hive i would restrict only to commander)...i think it would make the game much more deeper.
Indeed. I think people think automatically if you say "let gorge build more structures" that you mean hive/rt's. Nope, but currently gorge is only HYDRA spammer, not more or less, meaning in structure side. You can help commander to put mini cysts early but imo after second hive its worthless to help commander with cysts, because with 2 hives you have enough energy or you just simply cannot expand further without marines killing em. So far you are placing ONLY mini cysts on wall and then hydras, you cannot place hydras to protect even ###### harvesters because they are too weak. Lets see how it is when (they have to, no choice srsly ;p) they buff hydras.
Generally because there is no feedback to it and the saved time is usually negligible.
Its a little too symmetrical and drifters are too much like Zerg Drones.
Aesthetically speaking, seeing insect-like drifters magically poofing into worm-like (harvesters and whips), fungus-like (shades, crags shifts) structures seems very odd.
I know this would take a whole lot of work and isn't practical when the release date is this summer but, I'd love to see hives create harvesters as AI units that the commander can control. Harvesters will puke infestation as they travel, the infestation will only remain when supported by a cyst chain. The harvester would then travel and latch onto res nodes, gathering resources while taking damage until a cyst chain is made to support it.
As for whips, I'd like to see their animation change, so that they travel by slithering, like the harvester would.
As for the other structures, shades, crags, shifts. They look very stationary, so I feel they should simply grow out of the infestation. Like the infestation bulges, starts to glow and as the infestation bulge peels back, the structure is left.
What does the drifter do then? I feel the drifters should be casters. They already have flare. Why not have drifters release trails of umbra? or trails of spores? or trails of pheromones to show where to attack, defend or etc.or evolve into an offensive form of babblers. (versus the defensive form of babblers that are smaller and swarm out of the crag upon activation) Why not have drifters interact with crags in order to allow them to create babblers.
Change drifters to Tres AND, getting back to the topic of this thread, cysts and gorge's mini cysts can be upgraded into structures such as whips, shifts, shades and crags. Aesthetically speaking, cysts already look like the cores of or components of these structures. This could also allow structures to be built along the walls.
I believe this gives Khamm's much more micro to manage, more things to spend Tres on and gives gorges the ability to build encampements, in vents and along walls. Encourages more gorge and khammander teamplay. Is highly asymmetrical to marine commander and pleases NS1 gorge builder fans and enhances the Khammander role.
Otherwise I think the crag, whip, shift, shade activated abilities, separate shells, veils, spurs for upgrades is a great idea. I can't wait for the implementation of tendrils and dynamic infestation.
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I miss gorges being able to build in vents and larger vent spaces and hidden rooms in vents, a la repair room vent in Tram.
The marine comm feels very solid for the fact that NS1 had a marine comm.
NS2's khamm hasn't had that luxury and I think it needs a lot of careful planning to make it as intuitive, asymmetrical, balanced and fun as possible. (emphasis on asymmetrical)
I think I speak for UWE when I say that the last thing I would like to see is Khamm gameplay mechanics becoming a ripoff of Comm mechanics.
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Something off topic that needs another thread:
Alien and Khammander HUD needs improvement to show more information, researched abilities, finished hives, structures, number of Hives, which Hive is under attack, when hydras are attacking or taking damage, etc.
Marine and Commander HUD has managed to do this, while sticking to the theme of simplicity. I hope the same can be done for aliens especially, since melee attacking makes things a little chaotic.
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Anyway keep doing what you're doing UWE, NS2 is turning out to be an amazing game and its come such a loooong way since its alpha and is continuing to surprise me every day and is still more fun than most games out there currently, even if its only a beta. Thats a huge accomplishment and you have my full support and input as a caring community member, like everyone on this forum.
I agree with this, it seems like Gorge should at least be able to build Crags/Shades/Shifts once they've been chosen by the comm, as well as having better Hydras or even Whips as well. I also don't know why he can't have any building rights except little mini-cysts that as someone else said, just feel laborious when you've got nothing to do with them except a few lousy Hydras.
what made NS1 awesome was it's asymmetry, which NS2 lacks at the moment.
This would also make the alien commander practically useless.
Charlie stated more than once, he refuses to remove alien commander, and its here to stay no matter what. So even if it doesn't work, he will still support it...
gorge has no role in this game currently, all he can do, and been doing is spam hydras and be field medic. The role has been dumbed down so much, it isn't fun playing this class. That is why charlie is adding this "goo wall" idea for the class, maybe make him fun or useful again.