<!--quoteo(post=1900944:date=Feb 8 2012, 12:35 PM:name=SkymanderX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Feb 8 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i supose that's true. it always is won over by aliens though. Kinda impossible to win as the marines i think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's very far from being true.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Alot of things on this map could be solved by static spawns. There are no vents in operations, ie. good marine spawning location(others are not). The distance from Cave to Central makes it possible for marines to hold it. 2nd hive in Cave is almost impossible for marines to pressure. I could keep going.
On the roof of the marine spawn as a lerk, I flew up there and then turned into an egg to get some upgrades, when I hatched I was perminatly stuck inside the roof and could not get out by any ways. This picture is me being stuck.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1904596:date=Feb 18 2012, 08:27 PM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Feb 18 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static spawns as it is almost a linear map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I see mineshaft layout like this; there are 3 paths to take from one end of the map to the other. In some places you can switch from your current path to another path, which makes it unlinear and filled with oppertunities, to me at least. Fact is, that if aliens spawn in either crushing, or ore extraction, marines won't be able to hold central, as it's just outside the alien spawn. I think most of the current imbalances are due to map designs/random spawns. And the base(hive/cc) HP nerfs, which even further encourages spawn rushes/camping, resulting in countless 1-2minute games. That affects the win/loss balance, which means that depending on spawns, your chances of winning the game are not equal, or fair. Chances of winning should be equal and fair for both teams.
I think, it can be obvioulsy seen from layout, that this map was meant with static spawns. With marines in Operations and aliens in that cavern. And that causes all the problems with balance.
The best solution for me is, that there will be maps with fixed spawns ant there will be maps with static spawns and thats it. Both aproaches bring different experience for players and mapper should base his layout upon decision which spawn system he will use.
Map was created for static spawns and multiple commanders. There is mixed data out there. I find that it depends what servers you go on as I seen aliens winning on one server and marines winning a lot on another and not just on mineshaft. Playing styles of entire server communities are totally different from one server to the next and are of course are consistent within the server its self so one thing happens on one map on one server and the total opposite on another.
Global statistics recorded so far have shown only a slightly lob sided balance by around 8-12% where as on individual servers is more like 25%/75% win/loss ratio for both teams depending on the server community like I said.
I want to try out static spawns again now that there have been more game play mechanics added recently and see how that works out now before making any drastic changes to Ore Extraction and Crushing Rooms proximity to central drilling.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I love the look and feel of the map, I just find it frustrating with the random spawns at the moment. Especially marines starting in Refinery Transfer (I think? The really close one to aliens). Overall though I really enjoy it!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905125:date=Feb 20 2012, 02:29 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Feb 20 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Map was created for static spawns and multiple commanders. There is mixed data out there. I want to try out static spawns again now that there have been more game play mechanics added recently and see how that works out now before making any drastic changes to Ore Extraction and Crushing Rooms proximity to central drilling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is awesome news, and that is how we currently play mineshaft on ENSL. I can already report that the flow of the gameplay is much better, it works great! Good job on making this map, it is truely unique and beautiful.
A few possible perhaps not plausible suggestions for mineshaft:
-remove drill repair tech point -remove crushing machine tech point -eliminate 1 resource point in central drilling -make cave and operations static spawn locations for both teams -create new area on east side of map for an additional tech point location
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1905841:date=Feb 22 2012, 01:40 PM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Feb 22 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A few possible perhaps not plausible suggestions for mineshaft:
-remove drill repair tech point -remove crushing machine tech point -eliminate 1 resource point in central drilling -make cave and operations static spawn locations for both teams -create new area on east side of map for an additional tech point location
The last suggestion is the least plausible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting suggestion, only thing I don't like about it is removing one of the nodes in central. It will make it <i>much</i> harder for aliens to achieve the 3rd hive. Not sure if that will be good or bad.
I am going to be doing some changes around the little brew room to make alien access from Crushing to Central less direct.
One of my thoughts are considering moving Operations and drill repair together over to the right and up so that operations ends up where drill repair is and drill repair becomes positioned right of the cart tunnel and connects to the end of the cart tunnel.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1908244:date=Feb 29 2012, 01:02 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Feb 29 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am going to be doing some changes around the little brew room to make alien access from Crushing to Central less direct.
One of my thoughts are considering moving Operations and drill repair together over to the right and up so that operations ends up where drill repair is and drill repair becomes positioned right of the cart tunnel and connects to the end of the cart tunnel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am loving the fixed spawns so far, it is still possible for me to end games very fast as a skulk but it is incredibly difficult against any reasonable team. The buffer Gap and Drill Repair give marines makes it difficult to get to Operations without meeting marines and there are many good vantage points for marines or choke points for alien movement. I think this makes it well balanced, as the area around marine start now favours marines.
If you move Operations/Drill Repair would this mean that Operations is then linked directly to Central? I think it is important to maintain the buffer of Drill Repair, which not only gives marines favourable ground with which to fight, but also gives notice of alien movements before they arrive at Operations.
All in all, I am really enjoying playing on Mineshaft at the moment, thank you for making such a fun map!
Operations would still link to Gap not Central, The left MS exit tunnel would remain but link up with the Gap's Bridge, Then your choices would be to take the small crammed tunnel to Upper central or go across the bridge for the node and Refinery Transfer.
Drill location should definitely lose the tech point, it just serves no purpose. Other than that, I have to say that Mineshaft is one of the best "feeling" maps out there, in terms of immersion and the sheer amount of vents/options/places to go as a skulk, its fantastic.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1908282:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:47 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Feb 29 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Operations would still link to Gap not Central, The left MS exit tunnel would remain but link up with the Gap's Bridge, Then your choices would be to take the small crammed tunnel to Upper central or go across the bridge for the node and Refinery Transfer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, only one entrance to MS? I think you should think that over again, it will be very hard for aliens to end the games if there is only one entrance. Two is recommended for a marine spawn.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
The biggest problem I have with the map at the moment is that it seems most games are entirely determined by whether the marines can hold crushing machine. That might work out ok, except that the boundary between ore extraction and crushing machine isn't fun to fight over.
You typically have marines creeping through the vent with grenade launchers, and skulks suicide rushing them trying to get a few bites off and hoping they cause a grenade to explode next to the marine. Meanwhile, the north hallway doesn't have any interesting geometry to fight around, and the rest of the battles take place there. Every so often, the aliens will try to go around to central drilling to come into ore extraction the back way, but their only chances there are typically to bile bomb and hope they aren't noticed in time, because they're so cut off from the rest of the team there.
I don't know exactly what the solution is, but I don't typically enjoy that battle on this map, and it happens every game I play. (Other than that, love tons of things about this map. There are a lot of rooms that are a blast to fight in. Ore extraction is especially fun to defend from within the room.)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Have to agree with Moultano here.
As alien comm, the first words out of my mouth to the team is hold Crushing. If the aliens hold crushing, then it's 3 hives in less than 8 mins, if they can't, it's only a max of 2 hives, as drill repair is too far away, and too easy for a marine to accidently stumble upon the hive, and Refinery is cut off by crushing.
To my mind, the main issues on the map are:
Refinery > Crushing > Ore Extraction - This is 3 hives in a row, very close together, and holding crushing for marines effectively denies all 3 hives to aliens. There is no way of getting to Refinery, without passing through Marine territory, if they hold crushing.
To my mind, the map has been set-up with 3 hives for aliens, and 3 hives for marines, with Refinery and Crushing the two hives from each team most at threat from the other team. The trouble is if aliens hold Refinery, it doesn't stop marine expansion, however if Marines hold crushing, Aliens expansion is stopped and all effort is spent trying to clear crushing.
A perfect example yesterday. I commed for Aliens, had a guy telling me he could 3 hive in 7.5 mins, I told him so could I. We held crushing and got 3 hives right on time. Next game he was comm, but Marines got and held crushing and it was game over for aliens, we never got past 2nd hive.
I really like how this map looks and feels. There is also quite a lot of little details to it, which adds to the overall effect.
But from a balance standpoint, this map gives aliens a huge advantage.
The distance between cave and crushing, operations and crushing is one of the major issues.
If marines relocate to crushing, they can easily control ore extraction and they are very close to 5 of the alien RTs and the hive. Aliens will usually try and take drill repair for their 2nd hive at this point. Marines can easily take it down due to the fact they are closer to that hive than aliens or they have a phase gate in operations.
If marines sit in operations, they either setup base in central drilling or refinery. Central drilling is very hard to hold for either team to begin with. Aliens can easily take crushing and ore extraction hives so they are very close to this outpost. Combine that with the fact that phase gates are easily campable, marines will lose to 3 hives very fast. Same goes with refinery, however belt transfer is a choke point of death for marines.
Aliens have 5 RTs they can hold very easily which makes for about an 8 minute window for marines to push down 2 hives before aliens get onos out. Aliens can hydra up crushing which will hold against anything say a full team grenade launcher push/ARCs. Ore extraction hive area's terrain is already in favor for aliens to easily defend.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1911205:date=Mar 7 2012, 10:26 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Mar 7 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem I have with the map at the moment is that it seems most games are entirely determined by whether the marines can hold crushing machine. That might work out ok, except that the boundary between ore extraction and crushing machine isn't fun to fight over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree with this. Once you realize that winning revolves around who holds crushing, the gameplay gets a bit stale. I think part of the reason is because Ore extraction is such a good location for a 2nd alien hive (and poor location for a marine forward base). Problems with Ore extraction include: - The major areas to attack it are either from the low ground (think attacking from central drilling or cavern) or via a narrow chokepoint (crushing conveyor belt) - The room powernode is in a terrible location for marines to defend
Another issue with the map that bugs me is that choosing refinery transfer as a marine forward base usually turns out to be a terrible decision because 1) It far enough away from the next nearest likely hive location (crushing) that its difficult to take down a 2nd hive there and 2) Because there is no short path between refinery and central you're often surrendering the east side of the map to the aliens.
Comments
That's very far from being true.
There are no vents in operations, ie. good marine spawning location(others are not).
The distance from Cave to Central makes it possible for marines to hold it.
2nd hive in Cave is almost impossible for marines to pressure.
I could keep going.
On the roof of the marine spawn as a lerk, I flew up there and then turned into an egg to get some upgrades, when I hatched I was perminatly stuck inside the roof and could not get out by any ways. This picture is me being stuck.
Well I see mineshaft layout like this; there are 3 paths to take from one end of the map to the other.
In some places you can switch from your current path to another path, which makes it unlinear and filled with oppertunities, to me at least.
Fact is, that if aliens spawn in either crushing, or ore extraction, marines won't be able to hold central, as it's just outside the alien spawn.
I think most of the current imbalances are due to map designs/random spawns.
And the base(hive/cc) HP nerfs, which even further encourages spawn rushes/camping, resulting in countless 1-2minute games.
That affects the win/loss balance, which means that depending on spawns, your chances of winning the game are not equal, or fair.
Chances of winning should be equal and fair for both teams.
The best solution for me is, that there will be maps with fixed spawns ant there will be maps with static spawns and thats it. Both aproaches bring different experience for players and mapper should base his layout upon decision which spawn system he will use.
I find that it depends what servers you go on as I seen aliens winning on one server and marines winning a lot on another and not just on mineshaft.
Playing styles of entire server communities are totally different from one server to the next and are of course are consistent within the server its self so one thing happens on one map on one server and the total opposite on another.
Global statistics recorded so far have shown only a slightly lob sided balance by around 8-12% where as on individual servers is more like 25%/75% win/loss ratio for both teams depending on the server community like I said.
I want to try out static spawns again now that there have been more game play mechanics added recently and see how that works out now before making any drastic changes to Ore Extraction and Crushing Rooms proximity to central drilling.
Well timed with the release of Onos, too!
I want to try out static spawns again now that there have been more game play mechanics added recently and see how that works out now before making any drastic changes to Ore Extraction and Crushing Rooms proximity to central drilling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is awesome news, and that is how we currently play mineshaft on ENSL.
I can already report that the flow of the gameplay is much better, it works great!
Good job on making this map, it is truely unique and beautiful.
-remove drill repair tech point
-remove crushing machine tech point
-eliminate 1 resource point in central drilling
-make cave and operations static spawn locations for both teams
-create new area on east side of map for an additional tech point location
<img src="http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj631/LV426-Colonist/ns2mineshaftsuggestions02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The last suggestion is the least plausible.
-remove drill repair tech point
-remove crushing machine tech point
-eliminate 1 resource point in central drilling
-make cave and operations static spawn locations for both teams
-create new area on east side of map for an additional tech point location
<img src="http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj631/LV426-Colonist/ns2mineshaftsuggestions02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The last suggestion is the least plausible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting suggestion, only thing I don't like about it is removing one of the nodes in central.
It will make it <i>much</i> harder for aliens to achieve the 3rd hive.
Not sure if that will be good or bad.
Yet it takes up to an hour sometimes to end the game from this point.
<img src="http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj631/LV426-Colonist/mineshaft1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
One of my thoughts are considering moving Operations and drill repair together over to the right and up so that operations ends up where drill repair is and drill repair becomes positioned right of the cart tunnel and connects to the end of the cart tunnel.
One of my thoughts are considering moving Operations and drill repair together over to the right and up so that operations ends up where drill repair is and drill repair becomes positioned right of the cart tunnel and connects to the end of the cart tunnel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am loving the fixed spawns so far, it is still possible for me to end games very fast as a skulk but it is incredibly difficult against any reasonable team. The buffer Gap and Drill Repair give marines makes it difficult to get to Operations without meeting marines and there are many good vantage points for marines or choke points for alien movement. I think this makes it well balanced, as the area around marine start now favours marines.
If you move Operations/Drill Repair would this mean that Operations is then linked directly to Central? I think it is important to maintain the buffer of Drill Repair, which not only gives marines favourable ground with which to fight, but also gives notice of alien movements before they arrive at Operations.
All in all, I am really enjoying playing on Mineshaft at the moment, thank you for making such a fun map!
So, only one entrance to MS?
I think you should think that over again, it will be very hard for aliens to end the games if there is only one entrance.
Two is recommended for a marine spawn.
You typically have marines creeping through the vent with grenade launchers, and skulks suicide rushing them trying to get a few bites off and hoping they cause a grenade to explode next to the marine. Meanwhile, the north hallway doesn't have any interesting geometry to fight around, and the rest of the battles take place there. Every so often, the aliens will try to go around to central drilling to come into ore extraction the back way, but their only chances there are typically to bile bomb and hope they aren't noticed in time, because they're so cut off from the rest of the team there.
I don't know exactly what the solution is, but I don't typically enjoy that battle on this map, and it happens every game I play. (Other than that, love tons of things about this map. There are a lot of rooms that are a blast to fight in. Ore extraction is especially fun to defend from within the room.)
As alien comm, the first words out of my mouth to the team is hold Crushing. If the aliens hold crushing, then it's 3 hives in less than 8 mins, if they can't, it's only a max of 2 hives, as drill repair is too far away, and too easy for a marine to accidently stumble upon the hive, and Refinery is cut off by crushing.
To my mind, the main issues on the map are:
Refinery > Crushing > Ore Extraction - This is 3 hives in a row, very close together, and holding crushing for marines effectively denies all 3 hives to aliens. There is no way of getting to Refinery, without passing through Marine territory, if they hold crushing.
To my mind, the map has been set-up with 3 hives for aliens, and 3 hives for marines, with Refinery and Crushing the two hives from each team most at threat from the other team. The trouble is if aliens hold Refinery, it doesn't stop marine expansion, however if Marines hold crushing, Aliens expansion is stopped and all effort is spent trying to clear crushing.
A perfect example yesterday. I commed for Aliens, had a guy telling me he could 3 hive in 7.5 mins, I told him so could I. We held crushing and got 3 hives right on time. Next game he was comm, but Marines got and held crushing and it was game over for aliens, we never got past 2nd hive.
But from a balance standpoint, this map gives aliens a huge advantage.
The distance between cave and crushing, operations and crushing is one of the major issues.
If marines relocate to crushing, they can easily control ore extraction and they are very close to 5 of the alien RTs and the hive. Aliens will usually try and take drill repair for their 2nd hive at this point. Marines can easily take it down due to the fact they are closer to that hive than aliens or they have a phase gate in operations.
If marines sit in operations, they either setup base in central drilling or refinery. Central drilling is very hard to hold for either team to begin with. Aliens can easily take crushing and ore extraction hives so they are very close to this outpost. Combine that with the fact that phase gates are easily campable, marines will lose to 3 hives very fast. Same goes with refinery, however belt transfer is a choke point of death for marines.
Aliens have 5 RTs they can hold very easily which makes for about an 8 minute window for marines to push down 2 hives before aliens get onos out. Aliens can hydra up crushing which will hold against anything say a full team grenade launcher push/ARCs. Ore extraction hive area's terrain is already in favor for aliens to easily defend.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qEJsGl7P3CA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qEJsGl7P3CA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I have to agree with this. Once you realize that winning revolves around who holds crushing, the gameplay gets a bit stale. I think part of the reason is because Ore extraction is such a good location for a 2nd alien hive (and poor location for a marine forward base). Problems with Ore extraction include:
- The major areas to attack it are either from the low ground (think attacking from central drilling or cavern) or via a narrow chokepoint (crushing conveyor belt)
- The room powernode is in a terrible location for marines to defend
Another issue with the map that bugs me is that choosing refinery transfer as a marine forward base usually turns out to be a terrible decision because 1) It far enough away from the next nearest likely hive location (crushing) that its difficult to take down a 2nd hive there and 2) Because there is no short path between refinery and central you're often surrendering the east side of the map to the aliens.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/tcSHC.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As a gorge I fell down under the stairs here and its impossible to get out
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NRNh1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />