<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->did you never play NS2 before they changed how powernodes start?? most skulks went around (including myself) and killed every room of powernodes that we could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sad times. Leaving alien start with 3 skulks me : "let's push ventilation!"
First skulk stop in reactor and eat powernode. Me :/
Second skulk stop in dc and eat powernode. Me alone in ventilation dying in horrible manner :'(
Clearly what people like with the powernode is to get the light off and on, so I say, change the model to a light switch. Problem fixed !
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
i want that gameplay back! :)
risking a tangent from the topic slightly (promise not to hijack): why arent power nodes required to be destroyed to build infestation? seems like it would fix some issues (infestation spamming in base) while adding to the intuitive-ness. (territory is either powered, marine owned or unpowered, alien owned)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898913:date=Feb 2 2012, 08:27 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it has absolutely nothing to do with performance. not even close. 30 fps or 200 fps makes no difference in the choice to stay in spawn and stare at the wall or go rush marine spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with discussing anything on this forum is that whenever you do, you have to explain every little detail to the horde of posters who know nothing, or close to nothing, about how melee vs. ranged games actually play out.
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
risking a tangent from the topic slightly (promise not to hijack): why arent power nodes required to be destroyed to build infestation? seems like it would fix some issues (infestation spamming in base) while adding to the intuitive-ness. (territory is either powered, marine owned or unpowered, alien owned)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Continuing hijack: I think UWE doesn't want Marines walking into Alien Start and insta-nuking the hive by holding <b>e</b> for 10 seconds, or cut off the entire right side of the map instantly by doing the same to Reactor.
There are so many otherwise intelligent people on this forum stating "facts" with great authority that don't seem to realize not everyone agrees with their viewpoint.
I for one agree with the OP. Building nodes (much like other structures) in a good game feels tense and exciting because you're incredibly vulnerable, but getting power up (or down) just in time can change the course of a game completely. Usually you're parked in a bad angle so you either need someone to watch your back or be lucky enough not to get eaten.
From the alien side, chewing on nodes is equally dangerous but shutting down a room full of sentries and a pg is incredibly satisfying (and very hard if the marines have a clue.) Indeed as someone else in this thread said: quite a lot like the turret factories of old.
If that makes me someone who walks around with rose colored glasses so be it.
For people saying "nodes are boring", how are they more or less boring than building RTs or turret factories or what have you? Why are nodes so fundamentally different?
<!--quoteo(post=1898931:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:02 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not saying point 1 is not an issue but in my estimation in the current build points 2 and 3 completely overshadow that, at least when we're talking about early rushes. The crazy alien spawn rate is probably my biggest complaint there (and I play mostly alien.)
<!--quoteo(post=1898830:date=Feb 2 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 2 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I, for one, do enjoy staring at a socket and holding a button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should try watching paint dry, you'll have a blast.
<!--quoteo(post=1898941:date=Feb 2 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Feb 2 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should try watching paint dry, you'll have a blast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would, if things were trying to kill me to stop me from watching it, and if staring at it eroded the control of the people who wanted to stop me or established my potential safety or potential for prosperity in that area.
I could totally see an Amnesia style game like that: demons/insanity/eldrich horrors posessing your brain are trying to murder you, but by slapping paint in the right places and watching it dry, you can form a ward that weakens their influence. You've got to stay alive while trying to retain your mind and your life, the chaos of the posessing spirits offset by the mundanity of the only task that can fight back against them.
Paint every room in the haunted mansion to win. Fail, and your mind is given over to the abyss. Turn off the lights; put on headphones; lock your door; launch the game; ready your brush...
Maybe im blind, but could somebody give me any good arguments why powernodes are great? (but you should also read the arguments against it in both threads before you do this, ppl are tired of repeating the same again and again)
All i read is, i like powernodes because i like powernodes o_O ignoring everything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1898904:date=Feb 3 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fact: That's not a fact, and opinions like these posted as blanket statements are the reason I made this thread. I enjoy killing and rebuilding power nodes, and I'd rather create a weak point by cutting out Marine ability to expand/reinforce than take out 10 Tres worth of rebuildable equipment.
Opinion: You don't know what facts are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok fine :p. It might not be 'fact' that its tediously boring.
But yes, it is time inefficient and here is why. NS is about resources and timings. Ignoring the powernode and attacking the RT forces the recycle and wastes marine time and res rebuilding. I'm not sure you understand how important tres is when you say "oh they can just rebuild for 10 tres" like a throwaway statement. It isnt just a loss of 10 tres but also the loss of tres income which pushes back weapon and upgrade timings. Attacking the powernode instead not only maximizes the ammount of res gained by marines but gives them so much more time to respond that you might as well put a "hey look, free skulk kill on the minimap" around your neck. It takes 80 seconds for an RT to pay itself off. Attacking the powernode first is silly.
Doubling the ammount of time you spend attacking each RT room by also attacking powernodes means double the time for marines to respond and double the time required to kill off marine RT's (if they don't kill you trying to kill the first powernode.) This means more time not being available to help your team with skulk pressure which actually means greater potential for map control from marines. Powernodes can be rebuilt for NO res unlike rt's.
Whenever i see a skulk attacking powernodes first instead of rt's i nano shield it at 40% and laugh evilly at his feeble attempts from the comfort of my command chair.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe im blind, but could somebody give me any good arguments why powernodes are great?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure these are good, but it's what I have :
- It allows to switch on and off the lights. - It allows to finish the marines faster.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898931:date=Feb 2 2012, 12:02 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with discussing anything on this forum is that whenever you do, you have to explain every little detail to the horde of posters who know nothing, or close to nothing, about how melee vs. ranged games actually play out.
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
Do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
despite your opening with a condescending tone, i must insist you see your own error: you <u><b>still </b></u>didnt explain how performance actually persuades skulks to rush spawn early game or not. you simply are assuming the cause of this behavior, and you dont even stand by your assumption as you now have changed it to three potential causes, mostly because you "know nothing, or close to nothing"
the issue is the options available to a skulk early game, which has diminished with the change in power nodes. its not the only issue though and it doesnt have to be the solution.
and yes.. you must explain your arguments, this is just part of human communication, we have an issue with believing or understanding things without evidence, reasons etc. even if we are experienced in a subject. (such as long hallways lol) although there are exceptions, but those are generally ridiculed as fools.
Koruyo: power nodes are supposed to be great in the same way infestation is, as a form of fragile territorial control which adds an element besides PvP. they both also have a strength of changing the environment, lighting, placement of structures etc
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1898931:date=Feb 2 2012, 12:02 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with discussing anything on this forum is that whenever you do, you have to explain every little detail to the horde of posters who know nothing, or close to nothing, about how melee vs. ranged games actually play out.
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
Do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ideally, and in many scrims that I've played, this is usually the case (except for special cases like cloaked skulk rushes pre-Obs reveal). However, in public matches, where the skill of players are generally less then stellar, I find early skulk rushes to be quite effective. Even if you lose (i.e. all die without killing anyone or anything), you've forced marines into a defensive crouch. Any successes are basically crippling and the costs (waiting a few seconds to respawn) is basically trivial. Even if you bump that respawn time up to 10s+, early rushing would still be valuable for putting marines on the defensive.
Better performance, slower alien spawning, and later/limited number of lerks would help, but I don't think it would fix the problem as much as you think it would.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1898954:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you <u><b>still </b></u>didnt explain how performance actually persuades skulks to rush spawn early game or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't be serious. Wait, am I getting trolled? Is that what this is? Oh wow. Good show man, kudos.
<!--quoteo(post=1898955:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:34 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 2 2012, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ideally, and in many scrims that I've played, this is usually the case (except for special cases like cloaked skulk rushes pre-Obs reveal). However, in public matches, where the skill of players are generally less then stellar, I find early skulk rushes to be quite effective. Even if you lose (i.e. all die without killing anyone or anything), you've forced marines into a defensive crouch. Any successes are basically crippling and the costs (waiting a few seconds to respawn) is basically trivial. Even if you bump that respawn time up to 10s+, early rushing would still be valuable for putting marines on the defensive.
Better performance, slower alien spawning, and later/limited number of lerks would help, but I don't think it would fix the problem as much as you think it would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was no difference in this regard between competitive play and public play in NS1 and there's no reason why there should be a difference in NS2 either. I could write a long post explaining why it's a bigger issue on publics right now, and why it has nothing to do with the power grid or a perceived lack of options for aliens in the early game, but I'm honestly tired of having to explain every single detail to get the point across.
<!--quoteo(post=1898949:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:13 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 2 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe im blind, but could somebody give me any good arguments why powernodes are great? (but you should also read the arguments against it in both threads before you do this, ppl are tired of repeating the same again and again)
All i read is, i like powernodes because i like powernodes o_O ignoring everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few people already did, including myself. Maybe you don't feel they're arguments but hey :)
given current balance, * marines have too easy a time expanding and are very flexible on where they can build on the map. this requires constant alien scouting. * marines have too easy a time securing an area. turrets are way overpowered vs skulks right now. there's no amount of skill based movement that will allow a skulk to pass a sentry farm. * this means that if aliens fail to scout a hidden expansion for even a short period of time, the marines can lock it off against the aliens and leverage the defensive advantage afforded by turrets, meaning that aliens need a concerted effort and much res input to overtake a fortified expansion.
there are a few ways to solve these issues: * increase the time it takes to build things. this solution is terrible because not only does it not address the "pressing e is boring" crowd's complaints, it exacerbates the inability of pub marines to actually do anything meaningful. * nerfing turrets and static d. this solution is very tricky to balance, and in general static d doesn't scale well with playercount so it's probably something that will have to be addressed at some point. we can discuss this one all day. * include a mechanic that allows the aliens to deny marines the ability to fortify an area. aka power node system. while power nodes in themselves are an imperfect implementation imo, they work.
the problem of marine bases is somewhat alleviated by the current strength of gorge bilebomb, but honestly the gorge is the slowest moving alien class and takes forever to move from one location on the map to another. i don't think you can count on gorges to be a quick response to a hidden marine expansion.
Not only didnt aliens have infestation that kinda works like motion tracker(+ slows marines down), but the respawn rate is also faster for aliens and aliens can all go into a higher lifeform the first 2-3min into a game... also there is a commander now and aliens are not required to build rts anymore - they only have defend and attack.
Also it was never so easy to get rid of phasegates(kill marines, block phasegate), especially since beacon was nerfed and only revives players if they are in the respawn queue of a ip.
Mines are weaker and more expensive now. (also they can be destroyed by most lifeforms) ....
_____________________
- They give another weakspot(techpoint=>CC, Ips) for aliens to attack, they are even extra positioned to be easy harass-able for aliens(and a good amount weaker than CCs). - Other than infestation the weakness can end a game. (with such a downside they would need to give crazy upsides, but they have more or less none) - They dont give you map control - Because of some of those counter arguments ppl dont find it fun to repair and build them in addition to the main structures they have to build - They require units=players to build and repair, other than infestation. - They dont have any upsides besides light. - They dont really act as an additional distraction like infestation, so the only ones alien care about are the ones capable of destroying whole bases or outposts (see elodeas post) - They dont prevent turtle. (if anything its a reason why we see a lot sentry spam in ns2) - The game is now less about players and their abilitys. (you can avoid the fight a single marine if your timing is good as aliens at least until marines spam lots of sentrys around their base)
Powernodes are designed to be a downside and slow marines down, additionally to the bigger amount of higher lifeforms, infestation and a faster respawnrate compared to ns1. The longer a game goes, the weaker powernodes get and the more marines need a good and strong static defense in their bases to keep RTs alive and have the time to push alien areas and stay alive against lifeforms that require a 3:1 ratio and can easily escape with like 1hp left (fades)
If you have 2 fades you got plenty of time to get 1-2 gorges to gestate close to the marine start. Also you can have 3-4 ppl(lerks and skulks) attack and dodge around the ips or CC while the other 1-2 guys attack the powernode. etc etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1898984:date=Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why didnt we have those problems in ns1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If talking about Wheeee's previous post specifically: turrets needed the turret factory. Shutting that down often brought down the defensive position instantly to alien rush, but not always. Kind of like power nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1898984:date=Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only didnt aliens have infestation that kinda works like motion tracker(+ slows marines down), but the respawn rate is also faster for aliens and aliens can all go into a higher lifeform the first 2-3min into a game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think pretty much everyone agrees the current alien spawn rates are silly and the lerk is too strong/easy to get en masse but those are not power node issues. Same goes for mines and pgs which were introduced in the past few builds.
<!--quoteo(post=1898984:date=Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The longer a game goes, the weaker powernodes get and the more marines need a good and strong static defense in their bases to keep RTs alive and have the time to push alien areas and stay alive against lifeforms that require a 3:1 ratio and can easily escape with like 1hp left (fades)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's forget about life-form balancing as that has nothing to do with power nodes. As the game goes on hives and hydras and so on also become weaker. Is that bad? I don't think so. The later the game the more overpowering one side should become so we don't end up with hours of stalemate (like was the case in NS1 v1.x).
<!--quoteo(post=1898951:date=Feb 3 2012, 05:20 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 3 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure these are good, but it's what I have :
1- It allows to switch on and off the lights. 2- It allows to finish the marines faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1898953:date=Feb 3 2012, 05:27 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 I'd like to add to Yukki's list: It's fun (for some people) to repair and destroy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to offer the flipside to these arguments, so people don't misconstrue these as exclusively beneficial. 1- Aliens have a significant advantage, and marines have a significant disadvantage, in dark rooms. 2- It is a minimal-risk endeavour that can shut down an entire base. 3- It is not fun (for other people) to repair and destroy them.
<!--quoteo(post=1899063:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:41 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 2 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to offer the flipside to these arguments, so people don't misconstrue these as exclusively beneficial. 1- Aliens have a significant advantage, and marines have a significant disadvantage, in dark rooms. 2- It is a minimal-risk endeavour that can shut down an entire base. 3- It is not fun (for other people) to repair and destroy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4. it is objectively easy to defend and repair them, and it's heartbreaking to see so many people waste time attacking them and put their winning aliens team at a disadvantage
seriously, they're like a honey pot trap if you play against marines who shoot you instead of posting on the forums about power nodes!
So we cleared it all up... Some people despise power nodes to the point that they cringe when typing the word. Some people like power nodes to the point of taking joy from their destruction or creation. Some people don't care
<!--quoteo(post=1899119:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>but what is the question!??!</b></u>
:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was a question?
<!--quoteo(post=1898831:date=Feb 2 2012, 09:04 AM:name=reaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reaven @ Feb 2 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say that I prefer the old mode where all the nodes were deployed at start. Aliens had something to do at the start besides rushing marine base and I think it felt better overall. you knew aliens were around when the room was dark and in my opinion is pointless that you need to build a node so that the aliens can destroy it to benefit from the darkness. Just my 2 cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. One game I was in someone told us to play a "normal" game. What the hell else are we to do? The options are attack the base or do nothing.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1899156:date=Feb 3 2012, 02:43 AM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Feb 3 2012, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. One game I was in someone told us to play a "normal" game. What the hell else are we to do? The options are attack the base or do nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A "normal" game is one where aliens let the marines expand and take power nodes. In NS1 a normal game was when everybody went off to gorge res nodes at the start of the game while a few skulks protected them.
<!--quoteo(post=1899156:date=Feb 3 2012, 05:43 PM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Feb 3 2012, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. One game I was in someone told us to play a "normal" game. What the hell else are we to do? The options are attack the base or do nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You attack the marines trying to secure the res points outside their base.
When having such a fancy lighting engine, it would be a shame not to have a way of turning the lights on and off. :)
The concept of the power nodes isn't all that bad. The problem most people who dislike them seem to have is that they detract from the normal gameplay and don't add much other than another weak spot for marine spawn. The benefit is that it allows a heavily fortified room be overtaken by aliens by first disabling the power, and also provide the cover of darkness.
Now, if this is the case, the image of the light switch jokingly posted earlier isn't that bad an idea. What would happen if the build time and HP of the power nodes were to be reduced to say one tenth of what it is today? We get the same tug of war of keeping power going in a room and the alien benefits but with less tedious standing-around-and-holding-a-button. 'Course, a change like this would make the marine spawn more vulnerable, so the CC and IPs would have to be self-powering, something I don't think is that bad an idea either.
I'm by no means a veteran NS2 player so I might've overlooked something fundamental. If that's the case, point out the flaws of my reasoning. Still, might be fun juggling the idea around a bit.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1899171:date=Feb 3 2012, 03:57 AM:name=asker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (asker @ Feb 3 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What would happen if the build time and HP of the power nodes were to be reduced to say one tenth of what it is today? We get the same tug of war of keeping power going in a room and the alien benefits but with less tedious standing-around-and-holding-a-button. 'Course, a change like this would make the marine spawn more vulnerable, so the CC and IPs would have to be self-powering, something I don't think is that bad an idea either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know if it's still possible, but as Comm I used to stick a robotics factory right over the power node, so it was harder for aliens to get to, and if they could get to it then they had little surface area to bite. Your idea sounds interesting, maybe instead of one power node, there could be several instead but with the same total HP. Works better for both teams too, means that instead of everyone hugging one node and being killed at the same time by one marine or one skulk, it distributes the action in the room, creating a more dynamic gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1898950:date=Feb 2 2012, 04:18 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 2 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whenever i see a skulk attacking powernodes first instead of rt's i nano shield it at 40% and laugh evilly at his feeble attempts from the comfort of my command chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats a lie
fact: ive never seen elodea go into the command chair
to me powernode still serves these purposes:
stops the ability to take over an area instantly.
eg, marine just took out alien hive still need to go build powernode before dropping down sentries/pgs - allowing aliens more time to reclaim the area
its the 'push, then hold' mentality that for me is quite central to marine gameplay
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weak point in a fortified marine base
can be argued if this is a good/bad thing, but its at least a purpose of the powernode
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for people to press e against apparently some ppl like to press e
Comments
Sad times. Leaving alien start with 3 skulks me : "let's push ventilation!"
First skulk stop in reactor and eat powernode. Me :/
Second skulk stop in dc and eat powernode. Me alone in ventilation dying in horrible manner :'(
Clearly what people like with the powernode is to get the light off and on, so I say, change the model to a light switch. Problem fixed !
<img src="http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/light-switch.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
risking a tangent from the topic slightly (promise not to hijack):
why arent power nodes required to be destroyed to build infestation? seems like it would fix some issues (infestation spamming in base) while adding to the intuitive-ness. (territory is either powered, marine owned or unpowered, alien owned)
The problem with discussing anything on this forum is that whenever you do, you have to explain every little detail to the horde of posters who know nothing, or close to nothing, about how melee vs. ranged games actually play out.
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
Do the math.
risking a tangent from the topic slightly (promise not to hijack):
why arent power nodes required to be destroyed to build infestation? seems like it would fix some issues (infestation spamming in base) while adding to the intuitive-ness. (territory is either powered, marine owned or unpowered, alien owned)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Continuing hijack: I think UWE doesn't want Marines walking into Alien Start and insta-nuking the hive by holding <b>e</b> for 10 seconds, or cut off the entire right side of the map instantly by doing the same to Reactor.
I for one agree with the OP. Building nodes (much like other structures) in a good game feels tense and exciting because you're incredibly vulnerable, but getting power up (or down) just in time can change the course of a game completely. Usually you're parked in a bad angle so you either need someone to watch your back or be lucky enough not to get eaten.
From the alien side, chewing on nodes is equally dangerous but shutting down a room full of sentries and a pg is incredibly satisfying (and very hard if the marines have a clue.) Indeed as someone else in this thread said: quite a lot like the turret factories of old.
If that makes me someone who walks around with rose colored glasses so be it.
For people saying "nodes are boring", how are they more or less boring than building RTs or turret factories or what have you? Why are nodes so fundamentally different?
<!--quoteo(post=1898931:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:02 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not saying point 1 is not an issue but in my estimation in the current build points 2 and 3 completely overshadow that, at least when we're talking about early rushes. The crazy alien spawn rate is probably my biggest complaint there (and I play mostly alien.)
You should try watching paint dry, you'll have a blast.
I would, if things were trying to kill me to stop me from watching it, and if staring at it eroded the control of the people who wanted to stop me or established my potential safety or potential for prosperity in that area.
I could totally see an Amnesia style game like that: demons/insanity/eldrich horrors posessing your brain are trying to murder you, but by slapping paint in the right places and watching it dry, you can form a ward that weakens their influence. You've got to stay alive while trying to retain your mind and your life, the chaos of the posessing spirits offset by the mundanity of the only task that can fight back against them.
Paint every room in the haunted mansion to win. Fail, and your mind is given over to the abyss. Turn off the lights; put on headphones; lock your door; launch the game; ready your brush...
All i read is, i like powernodes because i like powernodes o_O ignoring everything else.
Opinion: You don't know what facts are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok fine :p. It might not be 'fact' that its tediously boring.
But yes, it is time inefficient and here is why. NS is about resources and timings. Ignoring the powernode and attacking the RT forces the recycle and wastes marine time and res rebuilding. I'm not sure you understand how important tres is when you say "oh they can just rebuild for 10 tres" like a throwaway statement. It isnt just a loss of 10 tres but also the loss of tres income which pushes back weapon and upgrade timings. Attacking the powernode instead not only maximizes the ammount of res gained by marines but gives them so much more time to respond that you might as well put a "hey look, free skulk kill on the minimap" around your neck. It takes 80 seconds for an RT to pay itself off. Attacking the powernode first is silly.
Doubling the ammount of time you spend attacking each RT room by also attacking powernodes means double the time for marines to respond and double the time required to kill off marine RT's (if they don't kill you trying to kill the first powernode.) This means more time not being available to help your team with skulk pressure which actually means greater potential for map control from marines. Powernodes can be rebuilt for NO res unlike rt's.
Whenever i see a skulk attacking powernodes first instead of rt's i nano shield it at 40% and laugh evilly at his feeble attempts from the comfort of my command chair.
I'm not sure these are good, but it's what I have :
- It allows to switch on and off the lights.
- It allows to finish the marines faster.
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
Do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
despite your opening with a condescending tone, i must insist you see your own error:
you <u><b>still </b></u>didnt explain how performance actually persuades skulks to rush spawn early game or not.
you simply are assuming the cause of this behavior, and you dont even stand by your assumption as you now have changed it to three potential causes, mostly because you "know nothing, or close to nothing"
the issue is the options available to a skulk early game, which has diminished with the change in power nodes. its not the only issue though and it doesnt have to be the solution.
and yes.. you must explain your arguments, this is just part of human communication, we have an issue with believing or understanding things without evidence, reasons etc. even if we are experienced in a subject. (such as long hallways lol) although there are exceptions, but those are generally ridiculed as fools.
Koruyo:
power nodes are supposed to be great in the same way infestation is, as a form of fragile territorial control which adds an element besides PvP. they both also have a strength of changing the environment, lighting, placement of structures etc
Look, with a little practice, shooting multiple skulks rushing you down a long hallway as a marine is not a difficult task. That's why rushing marine start in a giant blob of skulks was a very risky proposition in NS1, and usually a bad idea. Even just a few marines staying in base were usually enough to take out the rushing skulks, leaving the alien resource towers wide open for a marine counter attack, or even in some cases a spawn camp which immediately ends the game in the marines' favour.
Nothing has changed in NS2 compared to NS1, with regards to how powerful the basic machinegun equipped marine is compared to the skulk. If anything, the marine should be even stronger in NS2, because he now has a very powerful rifle butt attack and the aliens have one less player in the field (comm). The only difference is: (1) Low server/client performance, (2) alien spawn rate, and (3) essentially unlimited number of lerks in the early game.
Do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ideally, and in many scrims that I've played, this is usually the case (except for special cases like cloaked skulk rushes pre-Obs reveal). However, in public matches, where the skill of players are generally less then stellar, I find early skulk rushes to be quite effective. Even if you lose (i.e. all die without killing anyone or anything), you've forced marines into a defensive crouch. Any successes are basically crippling and the costs (waiting a few seconds to respawn) is basically trivial.
Even if you bump that respawn time up to 10s+, early rushing would still be valuable for putting marines on the defensive.
Better performance, slower alien spawning, and later/limited number of lerks would help, but I don't think it would fix the problem as much as you think it would.
You can't be serious. Wait, am I getting trolled? Is that what this is? Oh wow. Good show man, kudos.
<!--quoteo(post=1898955:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:34 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 2 2012, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ideally, and in many scrims that I've played, this is usually the case (except for special cases like cloaked skulk rushes pre-Obs reveal). However, in public matches, where the skill of players are generally less then stellar, I find early skulk rushes to be quite effective. Even if you lose (i.e. all die without killing anyone or anything), you've forced marines into a defensive crouch. Any successes are basically crippling and the costs (waiting a few seconds to respawn) is basically trivial.
Even if you bump that respawn time up to 10s+, early rushing would still be valuable for putting marines on the defensive.
Better performance, slower alien spawning, and later/limited number of lerks would help, but I don't think it would fix the problem as much as you think it would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was no difference in this regard between competitive play and public play in NS1 and there's no reason why there should be a difference in NS2 either. I could write a long post explaining why it's a bigger issue on publics right now, and why it has nothing to do with the power grid or a perceived lack of options for aliens in the early game, but I'm honestly tired of having to explain every single detail to get the point across.
All i read is, i like powernodes because i like powernodes o_O ignoring everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few people already did, including myself. Maybe you don't feel they're arguments but hey :)
given current balance,
* marines have too easy a time expanding and are very flexible on where they can build on the map. this requires constant alien scouting.
* marines have too easy a time securing an area. turrets are way overpowered vs skulks right now. there's no amount of skill based movement that will allow a skulk to pass a sentry farm.
* this means that if aliens fail to scout a hidden expansion for even a short period of time, the marines can lock it off against the aliens and leverage the defensive advantage afforded by turrets, meaning that aliens need a concerted effort and much res input to overtake a fortified expansion.
there are a few ways to solve these issues:
* increase the time it takes to build things. this solution is terrible because not only does it not address the "pressing e is boring" crowd's complaints, it exacerbates the inability of pub marines to actually do anything meaningful.
* nerfing turrets and static d. this solution is very tricky to balance, and in general static d doesn't scale well with playercount so it's probably something that will have to be addressed at some point. we can discuss this one all day.
* include a mechanic that allows the aliens to deny marines the ability to fortify an area. aka power node system. while power nodes in themselves are an imperfect implementation imo, they work.
the problem of marine bases is somewhat alleviated by the current strength of gorge bilebomb, but honestly the gorge is the slowest moving alien class and takes forever to move from one location on the map to another. i don't think you can count on gorges to be a quick response to a hidden marine expansion.
Not only didnt aliens have infestation that kinda works like motion tracker(+ slows marines down), but the respawn rate is also faster for aliens and aliens can all go into a higher lifeform the first 2-3min into a game... also there is a commander now and aliens are not required to build rts anymore - they only have defend and attack.
Also it was never so easy to get rid of phasegates(kill marines, block phasegate), especially since beacon was nerfed and only revives players if they are in the respawn queue of a ip.
Mines are weaker and more expensive now. (also they can be destroyed by most lifeforms)
....
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- They give another weakspot(techpoint=>CC, Ips) for aliens to attack, they are even extra positioned to be easy harass-able for aliens(and a good amount weaker than CCs).
- Other than infestation the weakness can end a game. (with such a downside they would need to give crazy upsides, but they have more or less none)
- They dont give you map control
- Because of some of those counter arguments ppl dont find it fun to repair and build them in addition to the main structures they have to build
- They require units=players to build and repair, other than infestation.
- They dont have any upsides besides light.
- They dont really act as an additional distraction like infestation, so the only ones alien care about are the ones capable of destroying whole bases or outposts (see elodeas post)
- They dont prevent turtle. (if anything its a reason why we see a lot sentry spam in ns2)
- The game is now less about players and their abilitys. (you can avoid the fight a single marine if your timing is good as aliens at least until marines spam lots of sentrys around their base)
Powernodes are designed to be a downside and slow marines down, additionally to the bigger amount of higher lifeforms, infestation and a faster respawnrate compared to ns1.
The longer a game goes, the weaker powernodes get and the more marines need a good and strong static defense in their bases to keep RTs alive and have the time to push alien areas and stay alive against lifeforms that require a 3:1 ratio and can easily escape with like 1hp left (fades)
If you have 2 fades you got plenty of time to get 1-2 gorges to gestate close to the marine start. Also you can have 3-4 ppl(lerks and skulks) attack and dodge around the ips or CC while the other 1-2 guys attack the powernode. etc etc.
If talking about Wheeee's previous post specifically: turrets needed the turret factory. Shutting that down often brought down the defensive position instantly to alien rush, but not always. Kind of like power nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1898984:date=Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only didnt aliens have infestation that kinda works like motion tracker(+ slows marines down), but the respawn rate is also faster for aliens and aliens can all go into a higher lifeform the first 2-3min into a game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think pretty much everyone agrees the current alien spawn rates are silly and the lerk is too strong/easy to get en masse but those are not power node issues. Same goes for mines and pgs which were introduced in the past few builds.
<!--quoteo(post=1898984:date=Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 3 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The longer a game goes, the weaker powernodes get and the more marines need a good and strong static defense in their bases to keep RTs alive and have the time to push alien areas and stay alive against lifeforms that require a 3:1 ratio and can easily escape with like 1hp left (fades)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's forget about life-form balancing as that has nothing to do with power nodes. As the game goes on hives and hydras and so on also become weaker. Is that bad? I don't think so. The later the game the more overpowering one side should become so we don't end up with hours of stalemate (like was the case in NS1 v1.x).
1- It allows to switch on and off the lights.
2- It allows to finish the marines faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1898953:date=Feb 3 2012, 05:27 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 I'd like to add to Yukki's list: It's fun (for some people) to repair and destroy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd just like to offer the flipside to these arguments, so people don't misconstrue these as exclusively beneficial.
1- Aliens have a significant advantage, and marines have a significant disadvantage, in dark rooms.
2- It is a minimal-risk endeavour that can shut down an entire base.
3- It is not fun (for other people) to repair and destroy them.
1- Aliens have a significant advantage, and marines have a significant disadvantage, in dark rooms.
2- It is a minimal-risk endeavour that can shut down an entire base.
3- It is not fun (for other people) to repair and destroy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4. it is objectively easy to defend and repair them, and it's heartbreaking to see so many people waste time attacking them and put their winning aliens team at a disadvantage
seriously, they're like a honey pot trap if you play against marines who shoot you instead of posting on the forums about power nodes!
Less Filling
So we cleared it all up...
Some people despise power nodes to the point that they cringe when typing the word.
Some people like power nodes to the point of taking joy from their destruction or creation.
Some people don't care
oh and 42.
:)
:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was a question?
Exactly. One game I was in someone told us to play a "normal" game. What the hell else are we to do? The options are attack the base or do nothing.
A "normal" game is one where aliens let the marines expand and take power nodes. In NS1 a normal game was when everybody went off to gorge res nodes at the start of the game while a few skulks protected them.
You attack the marines trying to secure the res points outside their base.
The concept of the power nodes isn't all that bad. The problem most people who dislike them seem to have is that they detract from the normal gameplay and don't add much other than another weak spot for marine spawn. The benefit is that it allows a heavily fortified room be overtaken by aliens by first disabling the power, and also provide the cover of darkness.
Now, if this is the case, the image of the light switch jokingly posted earlier isn't that bad an idea. What would happen if the build time and HP of the power nodes were to be reduced to say one tenth of what it is today? We get the same tug of war of keeping power going in a room and the alien benefits but with less tedious standing-around-and-holding-a-button. 'Course, a change like this would make the marine spawn more vulnerable, so the CC and IPs would have to be self-powering, something I don't think is that bad an idea either.
I'm by no means a veteran NS2 player so I might've overlooked something fundamental. If that's the case, point out the flaws of my reasoning. Still, might be fun juggling the idea around a bit.
Don't know if it's still possible, but as Comm I used to stick a robotics factory right over the power node, so it was harder for aliens to get to, and if they could get to it then they had little surface area to bite. Your idea sounds interesting, maybe instead of one power node, there could be several instead but with the same total HP. Works better for both teams too, means that instead of everyone hugging one node and being killed at the same time by one marine or one skulk, it distributes the action in the room, creating a more dynamic gameplay.
thats a lie
fact: ive never seen elodea go into the command chair
to me powernode still serves these purposes:
stops the ability to take over an area instantly.
eg, marine just took out alien hive
still need to go build powernode before dropping down sentries/pgs - allowing aliens more time to reclaim the area
its the 'push, then hold' mentality that for me is quite central to marine gameplay
--
weak point in a fortified marine base
can be argued if this is a good/bad thing, but its at least a purpose of the powernode
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for people to press e against
apparently some ppl like to press e