How does it help when i collect data from ppl playing the game and knowing only half the rules? Or playing the game in a wrong way, using non of the possibility available? (Team deathmatch, no teamwork) Starting rounds 1v1 with very unbalanced player counts on teams during most matches? Lots of leavers during games? No commander for half of the game, etc...
There is no real useful data from there to finetune and balance the game. (sure you see if something is VERY off)
If you balance for those global stats the game wont really be balanced - only the statistic will look better. (the biggest part of the global data is from matches with the problems above)
=> finetuning needs data from games with specific parameters. (teams are maxed out, have commanders, have tactics, are average/good in their skills as groundplayer or commander, relative even, utilize all of the available mechanics and features of the game as good as possible etc.)
Im not into statistics, but at least thats how i see it...
PS: this is also true for player feedback about balance. If you dont know how the game plays in an organized* environment your view of the balance can be a bit off... (e.g. players saying the lerk is weak atm... hide?! :X)
*what i mean with organized is, everybody knows the game well, average skill, full teams, commanders, tactics.. etc.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
The problems with using statistics is also that you try to figure out a normalization of the ns2 game. It works towards a generic game and reduced the variances of it.
It is true that if the game is properly balanced, statistics will reflect that. So statistics can be used to see if what is, is working. But it won't help you figure out what is not working if it is not, it will just tell it is not working.
Statistics can be used to see what is in the present moment. But predictions on the future are still impossible. Just look at any economist's predictions using statistical models, the outcome of the future is always completely different than what statistics told. That is because the number of variables when living things of our scale are involved are infinite. When you try to balance things according to your statistics, there are always so much more variables, just as influential, that you haven't taken into account. Finding all the variables involved is not graspable by human beings as we are not conscious of the true nature of reality.
Just look at build 193. The balance is now way off because so much variables were not taken into account, yet on paper it might of worked for the variables identified.
That is why only direct experience of it can give you insight and consciousness of what is truly going on.
I do not claim I have the solution to the perfect balance for NS2. I acknowledge that I do not have the proper experience of it. I can just give insight to what balance is for I have experience in that.
But why not do it like that: Get a bunch of dedicated or "competitive" players(at least a few ns1 veterans), so they help you balance the game. (get stats, feedback and statistics from there) Also all the other game companies do it like that. (blizz sc2, valve dota2, etc.)
If i look at the ensl gather there are ppl that play daily 3-10matches (1match = 2rounds= 1alien and 1marine side game) How often can devs or playtesters play real proper matches? (i imagine there is not too much time for this)
While there are changes in mechanics etc. its still the same basic game, and ppl know how it should play, and were problems are... so there can be discussions about mechanics and how to balance them and still maintain the new vision charlie has for ns2.
edit: but its not an easy task to find players that want to improve on the new ns2 not only a bunch of ignorant ns1 bobs flaming how ns2 is not ns1... :P <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#2F4F4F--><span style="color:#2F4F4F"><!--/coloro-->(*cough* *cough* i like ns2 and want to improve on the new ideas and mechanics, not building a ns1 clone - so do most i play with daily in ensl ns2 gather for example)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897717:date=Jan 28 2012, 04:27 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 28 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is true that if the game is properly balanced, statistics will reflect that. So statistics can be used to see if what is, is working. But it won't help you figure out what is not working if it is not, it will just tell it is not working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wisdom.
Comments
How does it help when i collect data from ppl playing the game and knowing only half the rules? Or playing the game in a wrong way, using non of the possibility available? (Team deathmatch, no teamwork) Starting rounds 1v1 with very unbalanced player counts on teams during most matches? Lots of leavers during games? No commander for half of the game, etc...
There is no real useful data from there to finetune and balance the game. (sure you see if something is VERY off)
If you balance for those global stats the game wont really be balanced - only the statistic will look better. (the biggest part of the global data is from matches with the problems above)
=> finetuning needs data from games with specific parameters. (teams are maxed out, have commanders, have tactics, are average/good in their skills as groundplayer or commander, relative even, utilize all of the available mechanics and features of the game as good as possible etc.)
Im not into statistics, but at least thats how i see it...
PS: this is also true for player feedback about balance. If you dont know how the game plays in an organized* environment your view of the balance can be a bit off... (e.g. players saying the lerk is weak atm... hide?! :X)
*what i mean with organized is, everybody knows the game well, average skill, full teams, commanders, tactics.. etc.
It is true that if the game is properly balanced, statistics will reflect that. So statistics can be used to see if what is, is working. But it won't help you figure out what is not working if it is not, it will just tell it is not working.
Statistics can be used to see what is in the present moment. But predictions on the future are still impossible. Just look at any economist's predictions using statistical models, the outcome of the future is always completely different than what statistics told. That is because the number of variables when living things of our scale are involved are infinite. When you try to balance things according to your statistics, there are always so much more variables, just as influential, that you haven't taken into account. Finding all the variables involved is not graspable by human beings as we are not conscious of the true nature of reality.
Just look at build 193. The balance is now way off because so much variables were not taken into account, yet on paper it might of worked for the variables identified.
That is why only direct experience of it can give you insight and consciousness of what is truly going on.
I do not claim I have the solution to the perfect balance for NS2. I acknowledge that I do not have the proper experience of it. I can just give insight to what balance is for I have experience in that.
Get a bunch of dedicated or "competitive" players(at least a few ns1 veterans), so they help you balance the game. (get stats, feedback and statistics from there)
Also all the other game companies do it like that. (blizz sc2, valve dota2, etc.)
If i look at the ensl gather there are ppl that play daily 3-10matches (1match = 2rounds= 1alien and 1marine side game)
How often can devs or playtesters play real proper matches? (i imagine there is not too much time for this)
While there are changes in mechanics etc. its still the same basic game, and ppl know how it should play, and were problems are... so there can be discussions about mechanics and how to balance them and still maintain the new vision charlie has for ns2.
edit: but its not an easy task to find players that want to improve on the new ns2 not only a bunch of ignorant ns1 bobs flaming how ns2 is not ns1... :P
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#2F4F4F--><span style="color:#2F4F4F"><!--/coloro-->(*cough* *cough* i like ns2 and want to improve on the new ideas and mechanics, not building a ns1 clone - so do most i play with daily in ensl ns2 gather for example)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Wisdom.