<!--quoteo(post=1894939:date=Jan 17 2012, 02:41 AM:name=acid_rain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (acid_rain @ Jan 17 2012, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm failing to see where UWE posted that. There's been no talk of it being in or out, so I wouldn't assume either. Either way, I loved devour and will miss it quite a bit if it's not around for NS2. I really enjoyed some of the dark humor involved with NS. I really want some Tom Waits-like dark marine sayings. I think it'd be pretty killer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/7/detailed_onos_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009...led_onos_reveal</a>
Besides, devour is a terrible idea for NS2's resource model. In NS1, you could field a finite number of onoses (directly dependent on your resource towers). In NS2, because players earn resources individually and independently (i.e. 4 resource towers and 16 players does not mean those towers' resources are split between you, instead you earn income from 4 towers), if you had a 16 player team, you could technically quite easily field 16 onoses, therefore you could technically devour the other team whole. Pretty much any OP ability is out of the question.
To add on to what acid rain has said about play testers, if that is so then the development team need to seriously consider your feedback on gameplay a lot more. As I'm sure not all of you can really promote the game play ideals as they are, even if you accept them right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1894997:date=Jan 17 2012, 07:30 AM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Jan 17 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->avoiding the swear filter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. The exact opposite. Self-censorship, actually.
<!--quoteo(post=1894998:date=Jan 17 2012, 07:39 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 17 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you know? Maybe it's some kind of aussie lingo, DID YOU EVER THINK OF THAT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Swearing <b>is</b> Aussie lingo.
As I said on the third page, <!--quoteo(post=1894806:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:38 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1894708:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:58 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 16 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Props on making a video, it makes your opinion sound like it should matter more. The forced profanity was enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He'd be able to pull it off if he were Australian.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone who played a lot of NS1, as well as other shooters/RTS like Quake and Starcraft, I've been having some nagging thoughts recently about core game design issues that are in NS2, but I still really like the game as it is now (and the direction it is taking). I guess I'll watch the video and say what I think about each point.
#1
You don't actually explain how this "doesn't work." Are there players in game who refuse to buy guns or buy them and waste them? One of those things was still possible in NS1. Are there commanders who don't get involved in what guns players use? If so, maybe they should. When I comm (or don't comm for that matter) I'm always prattling away with ideas about what guns we could or should be using.
If you can explain this better, let me see it.
#2
I think this is largely a real concern, but it's something that can be fixed extremely easily with the current design of the game. How do you give the alien comm more to do than build? Add spellcasting (like umbra). That's at least one way. How do you make the gorge more fun with less building to do? Add more FPS-oriented support abilities - like the belly slide.
That second part is where the current design of the game is lacking. The gorge, like the lerk, doesn't scale well throughout the game. The support value of its healing is lost on a lot of situations (especially now that the crag hive upgrades are extremely powerful).
#3
I think the power node/infestation model is neat. Although it does slow down the game by adding more steps to get to a given point, it also increases the complexity of attacking or defending held positions. Beyond that, it puts well-defined boundaries on how the game will play out (but not to the point that it makes every game feel the same). As an indie developer trying to attract players and grow a brand, UWE can't afford to produce a mod for a diehard niche community. They have to reach out and produce something that's approachable, and part of that means 'dumbing it down' just a little bit for people who aren't extremely RTS-savvy. TF2 and TFC/QWTF have this exact same contrast, and if you asked me about a year ago I would say TF2 benefitted from the difference.
You can still do 'wacky' things with structure placement in NS2. Again, this is something that will be developed as the gameplay is improved further (now that performance is getting so good). Things like "movement chambers providing adrenaline to an area" and "creative arc/siege placement" will come with better map design and tweaking of the existing features.
#4
There is no such thing as 'turret versus turret gameplay' in NS2. Even the most rudimentary players intuitively know that static defences are PAIRED with moving players to create the situations that pan out in combat. It's that way by design - turrets face a certain way, require manual turning/reloading, hydras are powered by separate and weak entities, etc.
If anything, NS2 is better than NS1 in this regard. Why? ARCs move, unlike siege cannons. Whips move, unlike...NOTHING. It's the exact same idea as spine crawlers/bunker salvage in Starcraft 2, but in this game, and it accomplishes the same goals: making static defenses less 'static', and making the game more fun with more options.
#5
The clip you show is very obviously from a server that's choking. You talk about client performance (like "running at 60 FPS") and set that against your video. Shame!
I think any of us who play more often can tell you the game has DEFINITELY improved in the last 6 months, in terms of performance. Especially in build 190 with the input lag changes.
They're not sacrificing performance for prettiness, either. They just didn't start making the game with the goal of having everyone play with picmip, forced models, fullbright and a bunch of other stuff that belongs in 1998. One of the best parts of this game world is the potential for visuals and sounds to affect gameplay (beyond the most base interactions that other games have). Things like Spark's dynamic lighting (seeing the skulk's shadow because it's hiding in a vent with a light source above it) and volumetrics (flames bursting through vents and the like) will really make this shine in the future, if the developers accomplish their goals.
On a related note, it's not easy to make an entire game engine from the ground up between like 5 people, with nothing to support you but a small contingent of very rabid fans (and some venture capital that you HAVE to make a return on).
If the developers had made any kind of promise about performance, you might be entitled to complain about this. But guess what...
Your 'final words' are more rhetoric and 'fake angry internet guy persona.' How are they 'changes for the sake of changes'? The developers post a lot about their rationale for these things, and I've even intuited a bunch of them for you in this post with only a shred of brainpower applied.
Oh, and skill-based movement is definitely important. The developers have said that they plan to add more (and they started experimenting in the new patch with the skulk walljump). Were you aware of any of that?
<!--quoteo(post=1894939:date=Jan 16 2012, 02:41 PM:name=acid_rain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (acid_rain @ Jan 16 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm failing to see where UWE posted that. There's been no talk of it being in or out, so I wouldn't assume either. Either way, I loved devour and will miss it quite a bit if it's not around for NS2. I really enjoyed some of the dark humor involved with NS. I really want some Tom Waits-like dark marine sayings. I think it'd be pretty killer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/What%27s_new_from_NS1" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...7s_new_from_NS1</a>
"Onos gains a new ability Bone Shield. Gore and Stomp abilities gain a disruptive element, knocking back or temporarily disabling marines and marine structures. <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Loses Devour<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> and Charge. "
I can guarantee you that Charlie himself has said this multiple times on these forums. It would be a lot easier to find except the search function on this forum sucks (ie. no advanced search)
I personally didn't mind devour but I do think that maybe the devour time was too long, both from the Onos and Marine perspective. The only time I really got annoyed by Devour was when I was getting devoured a few times in a row, which was rare. It was actually funny to get devoured and hear the marine shooting sounds get farther away and then, "boink," you pop out as the Onos gets killed while trying to retreat.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Hey primal, i won't flame trust me, but i do enjoy the discussion - as long as it doesn't dissolve into the personal attack area you seemed to also be concerned about. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1894846:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Primal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Primal @ Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because you need to be a game designer to critique a video game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no but to have any experience at all besides playing games would give credence and weight to your critique.<b> a fit of rage only worsens the reception.</b> everyone seems so sure their idea is the right one and better than what's planned (since its not complete) that its necessary to go to such lengths other than just posting their idea and moving on. i get the passion. not the attitude or negativity.
<!--quoteo(post=1894846:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Primal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Primal @ Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Successful sequels take what made the first game successful and build onto it, not redefine it to something almost unrecognizable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same teams, same classes, same RTS/FPS hybrid, similar weapons, very similar hp/armor levels (flayra is constantly adjusting to NS1 stats ).. there's definitely some core ideas in play. yes the RTK and infestation/powergrid are new ideas and may need working on - i wont argue that, this game is not completed though so i hold judgement until its all worked out, but i understand the concern and thats why i get the passionate responses regarding gameplay - just wish people remembered that these people are working hard and what it must be like to read some of these abrasive comments from their supposed "<i>fans</i>".. i know i would have begun avoiding the forums long ago if i were them - and not because the feedback's content but instead due to it's delivery.
<!--quoteo(post=1894885:date=Jan 16 2012, 05:52 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 16 2012, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think ironwhatshisface got my post. It's the people getting upset because they can't accept NS1 concepts work better than the new completely foreign ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kolada, we're not the ones getting upset? lol and also the jury is still out - there are still so many placeholders and features not implemented, beta, not finished etc etc etc
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1895033:date=Jan 16 2012, 10:32 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jan 16 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... long post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen the video yesterday and to be honest it demotivated me a bit. i was thinking if it wouldn't be better to change the dev style to be more closed instead of open as it is now.
now after reading your post i remembered for whom we make this game, and that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy the early access to the game and are curious about what is coming up next. So, thanks for writing this :)
to your comment about the wall jump: Me and matso (main contributor for game code) were working on the weekend based on an idea he had. We did this in our free time, and since it was not on schedule it involved some personal risk for me to add that to the game and devote the time (possible new bugs, could delay tasks on schedule, etc.). Now as you said, this is just an early version, and I will focus on improving it later (hopefully based on a lot of constructive criticism :) )
Remake NS1 with the new graphics and minor improvements. Sell it, hopefully making a lot of money.
Use the time everyone is transfixed on NS2 to make NS3. Take all elements trying to be included now and throw that into NS3. That way UWE can take the time needed to put out a QUALITY game.
Hell, call is NS1:Spark. Sure it would take time to gets elements right but at least it would be faster than the current project and it also wouldn't send the NS2 hype into a nose dive as is the current situation.
Cant tell you how disappointed i am with the game as is and the "new" planned features. This game is not 33% old, 33% updated, and 33% new. It is 20% old (structures and names stay the same), 20% updated, and 60% new.
I know it wont happen, but i so want this game to work. Those who hadn't put hours and hours into NS1 wouldn't understand. This is the only game and i mean only game i have EVER loaded the multiplayer maps on my computer in my own server just to practice and get better navigating.
I love you UWE, but i think the game as is has "jumped the shark". Dont listen to the loud minority. Go to your loyal NS1 player base and find out what made NS1 great. You had a magic formula. I didnt just play your game. I felt better about myself and life in general while and after playing. No game has done that for me in my 25 years of gaming. Give me that magic back =D please?
*takes prozac to cure the sudden emo tide and puts the razor down.*
I agree 1 even rather than 2, 5. However, I find it interesting about Power node and Infestation(Cysts look suck by the way).
Anyway, what I wanna say is it's fully correct what you say, that the communication between Commander and Marine Players is really suck now. That's the problem. But otherwise, it have had also big problem that Commander has all the responsibilities to give players equipments just like previous Natural Selection.
So this is my idea to deal with those two opposite problem.
So why don't we let commander actually <b>'produce'</b> the weapons and just keep let marines buy it with own personal resources? This is in my opinion really great comprimise and also good combination of two different major problems of two Natural Selection series.
For example, when commander produce 10 shotguns, then players can buy 10 shotguns till they are all sold out. Same with 20 or 30. Then commander can/will keep producing weapons <b>WHEN NEEDED</b>, so marine players won't be so individual at all. And, the problem of previous NS, that commanders mostly give weapons only to good players will also be sold, that it still depends on each players themselves to <b>GET/BUY</b> the weapon.
I heard developers are fans of Company Of Heroes, which is my favorite RTS game all the time. And my idea upon is really simillar with it. Although those units of the game are AIs.
Please LET COMMANDER 'PRODUCE' the weapons and equipments just like LIMITED EDITION that can keep being produced WHEN NEEDED. Not just unlock it. And then Marines will still be able to BUY it themselves, but just until they sold out and just when commander produce(that's like an order of him). This will be in my opinion the best solution to deal with two real different problem at once.
UPGRADE(UNLOCK) WEAPON -> then commander should keep 'PRODUCE' 10 SHOTGUNS (30 tres) / 20 SHOTGUNS (50 tres) for example...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
Where did this idea come from that NS is the holy grail of gaming come from... Last I checked it has some <b>serious flaws in the <u>easy to learn</u> and not get eviscerate by vets</b> thing going. That is not something you want in a game that is catering to a bigger audience.
Sure NS2 is easier to get into right now, but you can still use your "hardcore skills" to destroy the enemy. What NS is failed to do (easy to learn, hard to master), is exactly where NS2 is picking up the torch and bring it into a real game not just a mod catered to the competitive crowd. Don't kid yourself, this game (NS2) will not survive if the initial impression is being crushed by good/veteran players. And even if NS2 is dampening that effect to some extend it is still possible.
Also shame on the you to post about performance and using footage from a 6-8 months back, we all know NS2 has increased in performance a whole lot during the last year...
<!--quoteo(post=1895012:date=Jan 16 2012, 07:56 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 16 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To add on to what acid rain has said about play testers, if that is so then the development team need to seriously consider your feedback on gameplay a lot more. As I'm sure not all of you can really promote the game play ideals as they are, even if you accept them right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread really sparked some ideas for me to help improve our playtesting. I'm coming up with some really neat ideas to get some of the outside world involved with the playtesting more than we do now, and hopefully we'll see one of the ideas I have today! I also want everyone to know that I don't speak on behalf of UWE in any way, I'm just an average Joe like anyone else. We're all humans and we have our opinions, and I like sharing mine with the rest of the community. :)
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2012
Let alien commander have access to all alien structors, including the gorge. But only one difference, alien commander has static structors while the gorge has non-static structors, so the gorge can move around his structors.
Marine commander doesn't have the flexebility to deploying structors and moving them around whiled being deployed, why should alien commander have it?
Make both part sides similar when it comes to base mechanics.
Are we able to presume (under the assumption that it is a public game and they like using the weapon involved) that if a marine has enough personal resources on spawn they will always upgrade their weapon from the armory?
I think perhaps the changes from the NS1 model raise an issue in that there is no way of knowing the commanders next move and evaluating whether you should save for a JP/exo/mines. Simple communication like this can't be taken for granted in a public game so each time a marine spawns it is in their rational self interest to just buy whatever they can and run off to fight.
Perhaps some method for the commander to indicate their next big move to their marines would solve this? The waypoints act as sub-tasks while the over-arching goal could be somewhere on the HUD. E.g. [Siege Room X] or [Defend Room Y]. That sort of thing.
Perhaps it's too fiddly, anyone got any better ideas?
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1895129:date=Jan 17 2012, 01:52 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Jan 17 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let alien commander have access to all alien structors, including the gorge. But only one difference, alien commander has static structors while the gorge has non-static structors, so the gorge can move around his structors.
Marine commander doesn't have the flexebility to deploying structors and moving them around whiled being deployed, why should alien commander have it?
Make both part sides similar when it comes to base mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just chiming in to say asymmetrical base mechanics are one of the reasons NS is so attractive to me.
Something needs to be done about individual resources, its handed out like candy thus all these mine problems. I for one don't think twice before walking to an armory and buy stuff. I rambo sometimes knowing that if I die I wont miss my weapon cause I can just buy another directly with the res flowing as fast as they do unlike NS1 where if I got better weapons + jetpack I wont rambo because I know in the back of my head that I wont get new ones as easy.
On the other hand one thing NS1 suffered from was if you lost your lerk or what ever if you are not a pro player and getting alot of kills it could take you some time to get enough res to have fun with. If only UWE could find a solution inbetween those two cases.
If this could be done in a smart way it can even save the commander role ( talking marine side now as its more feature complete then the alien commander I think ) as the commander need to know who dosn't have enough res and fully equip the whole team before rushing a hive or what ever, for example marines might have enough res to buy weapons then the commander could step in and buy them jetpacks.
On that note the disappear timer for dropped weapons should be longer, sometimes I even don't bother go looking for my weapon where I last died and just buy new one as soon as I spawn this is because of the timer and the large res flow that makes me lose that attachment to my weapon, and this is one of the things I still love from NS1 to run back into enemy territory after dying to get my weapon and rush back to base.
<!--quoteo(post=1894643:date=Jan 15 2012, 09:13 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 15 2012, 09:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Marine Units - Your point seems to be that controlling the loadout of your team was an enjoyable part of NS1 commanding, which I agree with but you've gotten it confused with the ability to drop weapons. There's no difference between NS2 marine comming and the de-centralised decision making of calling plays as NS1 aliens. If anything, it makes public games vastly more enjoyable and at worst has no effect on marine competitive play.
The real solution is to implement a built-in PUG matchmaker so you can play with randoms in a setting more conducive to co-operation.
2. Alien commander - Currently split the NS1 gorge role into two, not necessarily bad. But right now both A-Comm and gorge are terrible to play, I agree. The main fun of NS1 gorge wasn't placing structures, it was healing team-mates/structures and bilebombing ######. It also provided a nice bit of calm if you chose to potter about behind the front lines for a bit by focusing on improving alien infrastructure. Since the A-Comm is obviously here to stay it needs way more active stuff to be doing than farting umbra from static defenses.
Here's a post I made about a simple way to improve the gameplay of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115862&st=40&p=1894434&#entry1894434" target="_blank">Alien commander</a> and here's one about the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115284&st=100&p=1886232&#entry1886232" target="_blank">gorge</a>.
3. Infestation/Power system - I agree with your analysis of them as gameplay elements.
As an NS1 vet, ever since we had a roundtable ventrilo discussion with Flayra years ago the power grid idea set off alarm bells. We instinctively felt it was removing one of the fun elements of the game. It turns out that the power system merely offers false choice, which seems to appease players who like staring at a wall for 30 seconds. Yeah I get that it's trying to apply the Turret Factory/Turret point of weakness relationship to all marine structures, but is that even a good idea? All evidence points to no.
re: Infestation - I feel infestation works better than the power grid but only because extra macro for the commander role is direly needed. ATM it's not really a choice whether to build a drifter or build a cyst - they're both part of the same choice because you have to cyst before you can build. If drifters were actually viable for use as other things throughout the whole game [see Alien comm link above] this would be more of a real choice, but even then the choice is between "build" and "combat support" and not "infest", "build" or "combat support". Cysts just seem like a really longwinded way of increasing build time of buildings. Or as the OP said: Slow the game down needlessly.
I would love to test a version of NS2 where you can build anywhere you want as aliens and infestation merely spawns as an aesthetic around structures.
Also on the topic of infestation: why why why WHY WHY does infestation debuff the marines? It is <b>so very annoying</b>. If player power must be linked to territorial control (which is a terrible idea for an FPS and still pretty ###### in an RTS <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115493&st=0&p=1886706&#entry1886706" target="_blank">Here is a post I made identifying why</a>) then can we at least have the change in power be fun? Speed up the aliens by 10% rather than slow the (already gimped) marines.
While we're at it I'd like to test a version with a blanket run-speed buff applied to both marines and aliens of approx 10-20%. Also remove sprint.
4. Static defence - Agree completely. Can we have turrets and hydras die after 60 seconds? Has anyone ever had fun fighting against static defences? The only reason mines were even tolerated in NS1 was because they <b>expire on use</b>, <b>weren't spammed everywhere</b> and were <b>more a deterrent than killing device</b>. Turrets and hydras are none of these. Every time a turret is dropped in NS, the game dies a little more in my eyes.
How to fix? Make mines cost team res and only deployable by the commander. Make hydras and turrets expire after a short amount of time and reduce their DPS. Limit the number that can be placed, either by limiting the number per area (link to power node or something) or by player (in the case of gorges, you can drop 3 max). Adjust costs accordingly. Do all of these, not just one or two. Static defence only work as time creating deterrents, allowing real players to arrive and deal with a threat, not when they're commander controlled killing machines.
5. Optimisation - I won't comment on this because my input would be of literally no value. I think everyone knows what's up with this.
Edit: Oh yeah, I wanted to say this: With regards to design choices, it seems like overly rock paper scissors decisions are trumping the gameplay portions every time. To me, it feels like the game design is so focused on creating a game that works in theory that it is bordering on completely overshadowing the FPS/RTS aspects. This makes no sense to me because strategy is all well and good, but I'm not going to want to play a game where the basics are just not fun.
My point? More focus on making the FPS and RTS sides of the game enjoyable, please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I echo literally every point made here wholeheartedly.
Debuffing marines on infestation is a terrible idea that is strategically interesting but comes at the expense of a player's sense of freedom of movement. Wherever possible, you want people to feel like they aren't handicapped and one way of doing this is to afford bonuses to team X instead of debuffs to team Y. Truthfully, I don't like the idea of a buff either because the handicapped feeling still exists, albeit in a disguised form. Rather, I think we should leave it to map geometry to create (dis)advantageous areas. Another way is to have the handicap very temporary like webs, flashbangs or knockback (and even these suck).
I think the problem of static defenses is an important one. It's very dull and, at the moment, very powerful. Mu's idea that turrets and hydras should be temporary is interesting although I would probably confine this solution to marines alone. In fact, I think the notion of a temporary turret is an answer to other problems too, namely the crushing effectiveness of a simple base rush and the often cited boring commander role. Being able to actually <i>respond</i> to a situation rather than <i>prepare</i> for it keeps the game dynamic, especially from the commander's point of view. Keep permanent turrets in as well if you must but have them as weak and fragile deterrents rather than alien annihilation machines.
For aliens, the hydra might require a different solution. I don't really know what it is yet because I understand that the gorge needs to have a job besides endlessly healing and spreading infestation. What I do know is that, as it stands, the hydra is spammy and i've seen enough of them for my lifetime. At the end of the day, it's just not that fun. You want to give players a sense that progression is possible, even if unlikely. Static defences are simply too powerful and need to be limited. I can envisage competitive play being less affected by this problem perhaps but public games will suffer from this forever if it is not addressed.
Balancing a game is important. Really important. However, I want to reiterate Mu's plea for more focus on making the game enjoyable from an fps/rts perspective. Reducing shotgun cost and tweaking values is all well and good but it's whether the core movement/game mechanics are enjoyable that determines my repeat custom. If the commander or the gorge or the skulk or any integral facet isn't enjoyable or engaging, then NS2 will have let itself down considerably.
Is there a reason we still get resources for kills? That seems like a very CoD thing that we have to be praised for our killing.. kills shouldn't be rewarded, especially when there's no real reason why the energy is able to be salvaged.. when a lifeform is dead it is no longer producing energy. Where is this resources coming from?
Also if this system is removed it will put more emphasis on getting resource towers and fighting over them, which I think should be the main objective other than obtaining enough prowess to make the final pushes into enemy territory.
<!--quoteo(post=1895147:date=Jan 17 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 17 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if this system is removed it will put more emphasis on getting resource towers and fighting over them, which I think should be the main objective other than obtaining enough prowess to make the final pushes into enemy territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What really should be removed is the "energy" resource, make ALL buildings with an activated comm-ability cost (suitable) res, so there's no spamming of beacons with no loss, no spamming of umbra etc.. you have to think about when using the actives, not just "when there's enough energy -->spam"
Or just tie powernodes into providing an energy pool. Its an idea thats been suggested before by people. It makes powernodes relevant beyond just being a weak point in the chain and territorial control matter more.
I really don't like the format of your video here, especially with all the swearing and rudeness. But a few points:
- We haven't announced any release date, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Stop telling people when you think we're going to release and pretending it's fact. - This sounds like similar griping that was heard between TF and TF2. As a player I'm sure you feel threatened when we try new things, but if we had to make the same game over and over, then we would go work on Madden and there would be no more NS-anything. - Most of the balance data is identical to NS1. Check balance.txt and Balance.lua and BalanceHealth.lua to see for yourself. I changed the resource model because it wasn't thought through at all when I started NS1 and isn't anything good to build on top of. We're not making an RTS, we're making an FPS that has RTS elements. There were some big problems with the resource model in NS1 which led to the game being unbalanced at every size game instead of 6v6. I considered the resource model in NS1 to be pretty flawed. - The Alien Commander isn't properly implemented yet so please don't evaluate it yet. - We agree with structure vs. structure play and we're working on it. You'll see a big improvement shortly with Lerk spores "confusing" sentries, which allow aliens working together to defeat sentries. - We are not EA. We're don't have oodles of cash to work on the most technically perfect, gameplay-identical sequel which we will then released with a big marketing campaign to players who want "more of the same". We wanted to continue our tradition of NS1 where we co-develop our game with the community, taking feedback as we go, when we actually have time to take it into account and rework whole systems.
It sounds to me like you just want NS1 - well congratulations, it's available for free RIGHT NOW. We're not interested in re-making the same game and I don't think most of you want us to do the same. It sounds like NS2 (and perhaps any kind of change) is not for you.
Comments
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/7/detailed_onos_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009...led_onos_reveal</a>
Besides, devour is a terrible idea for NS2's resource model. In NS1, you could field a finite number of onoses (directly dependent on your resource towers). In NS2, because players earn resources individually and independently (i.e. 4 resource towers and 16 players does not mean those towers' resources are split between you, instead you earn income from 4 towers), if you had a 16 player team, you could technically quite easily field 16 onoses, therefore you could technically devour the other team whole. Pretty much any OP ability is out of the question.
Nope. The exact opposite. Self-censorship, actually.
<!--quoteo(post=1894998:date=Jan 17 2012, 07:39 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 17 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you know? Maybe it's some kind of aussie lingo, DID YOU EVER THINK OF THAT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Swearing <b>is</b> Aussie lingo.
As I said on the third page,
<!--quoteo(post=1894806:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:38 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1894708:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:58 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 16 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Props on making a video, it makes your opinion sound like it should matter more. The forced profanity was enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He'd be able to pull it off if he were Australian.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1
You don't actually explain how this "doesn't work." Are there players in game who refuse to buy guns or buy them and waste them? One of those things was still possible in NS1. Are there commanders who don't get involved in what guns players use? If so, maybe they should. When I comm (or don't comm for that matter) I'm always prattling away with ideas about what guns we could or should be using.
If you can explain this better, let me see it.
#2
I think this is largely a real concern, but it's something that can be fixed extremely easily with the current design of the game.
How do you give the alien comm more to do than build? Add spellcasting (like umbra). That's at least one way.
How do you make the gorge more fun with less building to do? Add more FPS-oriented support abilities - like the belly slide.
That second part is where the current design of the game is lacking. The gorge, like the lerk, doesn't scale well throughout the game. The support value of its healing is lost on a lot of situations (especially now that the crag hive upgrades are extremely powerful).
#3
I think the power node/infestation model is neat. Although it does slow down the game by adding more steps to get to a given point, it also increases the complexity of attacking or defending held positions. Beyond that, it puts well-defined boundaries on how the game will play out (but not to the point that it makes every game feel the same). As an indie developer trying to attract players and grow a brand, UWE can't afford to produce a mod for a diehard niche community. They have to reach out and produce something that's approachable, and part of that means 'dumbing it down' just a little bit for people who aren't extremely RTS-savvy. TF2 and TFC/QWTF have this exact same contrast, and if you asked me about a year ago I would say TF2 benefitted from the difference.
You can still do 'wacky' things with structure placement in NS2. Again, this is something that will be developed as the gameplay is improved further (now that performance is getting so good). Things like "movement chambers providing adrenaline to an area" and "creative arc/siege placement" will come with better map design and tweaking of the existing features.
#4
There is no such thing as 'turret versus turret gameplay' in NS2. Even the most rudimentary players intuitively know that static defences are PAIRED with moving players to create the situations that pan out in combat. It's that way by design - turrets face a certain way, require manual turning/reloading, hydras are powered by separate and weak entities, etc.
If anything, NS2 is better than NS1 in this regard. Why? ARCs move, unlike siege cannons. Whips move, unlike...NOTHING. It's the exact same idea as spine crawlers/bunker salvage in Starcraft 2, but in this game, and it accomplishes the same goals: making static defenses less 'static', and making the game more fun with more options.
#5
The clip you show is very obviously from a server that's choking. You talk about client performance (like "running at 60 FPS") and set that against your video. Shame!
I think any of us who play more often can tell you the game has DEFINITELY improved in the last 6 months, in terms of performance. Especially in build 190 with the input lag changes.
They're not sacrificing performance for prettiness, either. They just didn't start making the game with the goal of having everyone play with picmip, forced models, fullbright and a bunch of other stuff that belongs in 1998. One of the best parts of this game world is the potential for visuals and sounds to affect gameplay (beyond the most base interactions that other games have). Things like Spark's dynamic lighting (seeing the skulk's shadow because it's hiding in a vent with a light source above it) and volumetrics (flames bursting through vents and the like) will really make this shine in the future, if the developers accomplish their goals.
On a related note, it's not easy to make an entire game engine from the ground up between like 5 people, with nothing to support you but a small contingent of very rabid fans (and some venture capital that you HAVE to make a return on).
If the developers had made any kind of promise about performance, you might be entitled to complain about this. But guess what...
Your 'final words' are more rhetoric and 'fake angry internet guy persona.' How are they 'changes for the sake of changes'? The developers post a lot about their rationale for these things, and I've even intuited a bunch of them for you in this post with only a shred of brainpower applied.
Oh, and skill-based movement is definitely important. The developers have said that they plan to add more (and they started experimenting in the new patch with the skulk walljump). Were you aware of any of that?
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/What%27s_new_from_NS1" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...7s_new_from_NS1</a>
"Onos gains a new ability Bone Shield. Gore and Stomp abilities gain a disruptive element, knocking back or temporarily disabling marines and marine structures. <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Loses Devour<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> and Charge. "
I can guarantee you that Charlie himself has said this multiple times on these forums. It would be a lot easier to find except the search function on this forum sucks (ie. no advanced search)
I personally didn't mind devour but I do think that maybe the devour time was too long, both from the Onos and Marine perspective. The only time I really got annoyed by Devour was when I was getting devoured a few times in a row, which was rare. It was actually funny to get devoured and hear the marine shooting sounds get farther away and then, "boink," you pop out as the Onos gets killed while trying to retreat.
<!--quoteo(post=1894846:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Primal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Primal @ Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because you need to be a game designer to critique a video game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no but to have any experience at all besides playing games would give credence and weight to your critique.<b> a fit of rage only worsens the reception.</b>
everyone seems so sure their idea is the right one and better than what's planned (since its not complete) that its necessary to go to such lengths other than just posting their idea and moving on. i get the passion. not the attitude or negativity.
<!--quoteo(post=1894846:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Primal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Primal @ Jan 16 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Successful sequels take what made the first game successful and build onto it, not redefine it to something almost unrecognizable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same teams, same classes, same RTS/FPS hybrid, similar weapons, very similar hp/armor levels (flayra is constantly adjusting to NS1 stats ).. there's definitely some core ideas in play. yes the RTK and infestation/powergrid are new ideas and may need working on - i wont argue that, this game is not completed though so i hold judgement until its all worked out, but i understand the concern and thats why i get the passionate responses regarding gameplay - just wish people remembered that these people are working hard and what it must be like to read some of these abrasive comments from their supposed "<i>fans</i>".. i know i would have begun avoiding the forums long ago if i were them - and not because the feedback's content but instead due to it's delivery.
<!--quoteo(post=1894885:date=Jan 16 2012, 05:52 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 16 2012, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think ironwhatshisface got my post. It's the people getting upset because they can't accept NS1 concepts work better than the new completely foreign ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kolada, we're not the ones getting upset? lol
and also the jury is still out - there are still so many placeholders and features not implemented, beta, not finished etc etc etc
isn't that avoiding the censorship? if I called u a dumb mother fu__er would that be ok?
I have seen the video yesterday and to be honest it demotivated me a bit. i was thinking if it wouldn't be better to change the dev style to be more closed instead of open as it is now.
now after reading your post i remembered for whom we make this game, and that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy the early access to the game and are curious about what is coming up next. So, thanks for writing this :)
to your comment about the wall jump: Me and matso (main contributor for game code) were working on the weekend based on an idea he had. We did this in our free time, and since it was not on schedule it involved some personal risk for me to add that to the game and devote the time (possible new bugs, could delay tasks on schedule, etc.). Now as you said, this is just an early version, and I will focus on improving it later (hopefully based on a lot of constructive criticism :) )
Remake NS1 with the new graphics and minor improvements. Sell it, hopefully making a lot of money.
Use the time everyone is transfixed on NS2 to make NS3. Take all elements trying to be included now and throw that into NS3. That way UWE can take the time needed to put out a QUALITY game.
Hell, call is NS1:Spark. Sure it would take time to gets elements right but at least it would be faster than the current project and it also wouldn't send the NS2 hype into a nose dive as is the current situation.
Cant tell you how disappointed i am with the game as is and the "new" planned features. This game is not 33% old, 33% updated, and 33% new. It is 20% old (structures and names stay the same), 20% updated, and 60% new.
I know it wont happen, but i so want this game to work. Those who hadn't put hours and hours into NS1 wouldn't understand. This is the only game and i mean only game i have EVER loaded the multiplayer maps on my computer in my own server just to practice and get better navigating.
I love you UWE, but i think the game as is has "jumped the shark". Dont listen to the loud minority. Go to your loyal NS1 player base and find out what made NS1 great. You had a magic formula. I didnt just play your game. I felt better about myself and life in general while and after playing. No game has done that for me in my 25 years of gaming. Give me that magic back =D please?
*takes prozac to cure the sudden emo tide and puts the razor down.*
Anyway, what I wanna say is it's fully correct what you say, that the communication between Commander and Marine Players is really suck now. That's the problem. But otherwise, it have had also big problem that Commander has all the responsibilities to give players equipments just like previous Natural Selection.
So this is my idea to deal with those two opposite problem.
So why don't we let commander actually <b>'produce'</b> the weapons and just keep let marines buy it with own personal resources? This is in my opinion really great comprimise and also good combination of two different major problems of two Natural Selection series.
For example, when commander produce 10 shotguns, then players can buy 10 shotguns till they are all sold out. Same with 20 or 30.
Then commander can/will keep producing weapons <b>WHEN NEEDED</b>, so marine players won't be so individual at all.
And, the problem of previous NS, that commanders mostly give weapons only to good players will also be sold, that it still depends on each players themselves to <b>GET/BUY</b> the weapon.
I heard developers are fans of Company Of Heroes, which is my favorite RTS game all the time.
And my idea upon is really simillar with it. Although those units of the game are AIs.
Please LET COMMANDER 'PRODUCE' the weapons and equipments just like LIMITED EDITION that can keep being produced WHEN NEEDED. Not just unlock it. And then Marines will still be able to BUY it themselves, but just until they sold out and just when commander produce(that's like an order of him). This will be in my opinion the best solution to deal with two real different problem at once.
UPGRADE(UNLOCK) WEAPON -> then commander should keep 'PRODUCE' 10 SHOTGUNS (30 tres) / 20 SHOTGUNS (50 tres) for example...
Sure NS2 is easier to get into right now, but you can still use your "hardcore skills" to destroy the enemy. What NS is failed to do (easy to learn, hard to master), is exactly where NS2 is picking up the torch and bring it into a real game not just a mod catered to the competitive crowd. Don't kid yourself, this game (NS2) will not survive if the initial impression is being crushed by good/veteran players. And even if NS2 is dampening that effect to some extend it is still possible.
Also shame on the you to post about performance and using footage from a 6-8 months back, we all know NS2 has increased in performance a whole lot during the last year...
This thread really sparked some ideas for me to help improve our playtesting. I'm coming up with some really neat ideas to get some of the outside world involved with the playtesting more than we do now, and hopefully we'll see one of the ideas I have today! I also want everyone to know that I don't speak on behalf of UWE in any way, I'm just an average Joe like anyone else. We're all humans and we have our opinions, and I like sharing mine with the rest of the community. :)
Marine commander doesn't have the flexebility to deploying structors and moving them around whiled being deployed, why should alien commander have it?
Make both part sides similar when it comes to base mechanics.
Are we able to presume (under the assumption that it is a public game and they like using the weapon involved) that if a marine has enough personal resources on spawn they will always upgrade their weapon from the armory?
I think perhaps the changes from the NS1 model raise an issue in that there is no way of knowing the commanders next move and evaluating whether you should save for a JP/exo/mines. Simple communication like this can't be taken for granted in a public game so each time a marine spawns it is in their rational self interest to just buy whatever they can and run off to fight.
Perhaps some method for the commander to indicate their next big move to their marines would solve this? The waypoints act as sub-tasks while the over-arching goal could be somewhere on the HUD. E.g. [Siege Room X] or [Defend Room Y]. That sort of thing.
Perhaps it's too fiddly, anyone got any better ideas?
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1895129:date=Jan 17 2012, 01:52 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Jan 17 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let alien commander have access to all alien structors, including the gorge. But only one difference, alien commander has static structors while the gorge has non-static structors, so the gorge can move around his structors.
Marine commander doesn't have the flexebility to deploying structors and moving them around whiled being deployed, why should alien commander have it?
Make both part sides similar when it comes to base mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just chiming in to say asymmetrical base mechanics are one of the reasons NS is so attractive to me.
On the other hand one thing NS1 suffered from was if you lost your lerk or what ever if you are not a pro player and getting alot of kills it could take you some time to get enough res to have fun with. If only UWE could find a solution inbetween those two cases.
If this could be done in a smart way it can even save the commander role ( talking marine side now as its more feature complete then the alien commander I think ) as the commander need to know who dosn't have enough res and fully equip the whole team before rushing a hive or what ever, for example marines might have enough res to buy weapons then the commander could step in and buy them jetpacks.
On that note the disappear timer for dropped weapons should be longer, sometimes I even don't bother go looking for my weapon where I last died and just buy new one as soon as I spawn this is because of the timer and the large res flow that makes me lose that attachment to my weapon, and this is one of the things I still love from NS1 to run back into enemy territory after dying to get my weapon and rush back to base.
The real solution is to implement a built-in PUG matchmaker so you can play with randoms in a setting more conducive to co-operation.
2. Alien commander - Currently split the NS1 gorge role into two, not necessarily bad. But right now both A-Comm and gorge are terrible to play, I agree. The main fun of NS1 gorge wasn't placing structures, it was healing team-mates/structures and bilebombing ######. It also provided a nice bit of calm if you chose to potter about behind the front lines for a bit by focusing on improving alien infrastructure. Since the A-Comm is obviously here to stay it needs way more active stuff to be doing than farting umbra from static defenses.
Here's a post I made about a simple way to improve the gameplay of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115862&st=40&p=1894434&#entry1894434" target="_blank">Alien commander</a> and here's one about the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115284&st=100&p=1886232&#entry1886232" target="_blank">gorge</a>.
3. Infestation/Power system - I agree with your analysis of them as gameplay elements.
As an NS1 vet, ever since we had a roundtable ventrilo discussion with Flayra years ago the power grid idea set off alarm bells. We instinctively felt it was removing one of the fun elements of the game. It turns out that the power system merely offers false choice, which seems to appease players who like staring at a wall for 30 seconds. Yeah I get that it's trying to apply the Turret Factory/Turret point of weakness relationship to all marine structures, but is that even a good idea? All evidence points to no.
re: Infestation - I feel infestation works better than the power grid but only because extra macro for the commander role is direly needed. ATM it's not really a choice whether to build a drifter or build a cyst - they're both part of the same choice because you have to cyst before you can build. If drifters were actually viable for use as other things throughout the whole game [see Alien comm link above] this would be more of a real choice, but even then the choice is between "build" and "combat support" and not "infest", "build" or "combat support". Cysts just seem like a really longwinded way of increasing build time of buildings. Or as the OP said: Slow the game down needlessly.
I would love to test a version of NS2 where you can build anywhere you want as aliens and infestation merely spawns as an aesthetic around structures.
Also on the topic of infestation: why why why WHY WHY does infestation debuff the marines? It is <b>so very annoying</b>. If player power must be linked to territorial control (which is a terrible idea for an FPS and still pretty ###### in an RTS <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115493&st=0&p=1886706&#entry1886706" target="_blank">Here is a post I made identifying why</a>) then can we at least have the change in power be fun? Speed up the aliens by 10% rather than slow the (already gimped) marines.
While we're at it I'd like to test a version with a blanket run-speed buff applied to both marines and aliens of approx 10-20%. Also remove sprint.
4. Static defence - Agree completely. Can we have turrets and hydras die after 60 seconds? Has anyone ever had fun fighting against static defences? The only reason mines were even tolerated in NS1 was because they <b>expire on use</b>, <b>weren't spammed everywhere</b> and were <b>more a deterrent than killing device</b>. Turrets and hydras are none of these. Every time a turret is dropped in NS, the game dies a little more in my eyes.
How to fix? Make mines cost team res and only deployable by the commander. Make hydras and turrets expire after a short amount of time and reduce their DPS. Limit the number that can be placed, either by limiting the number per area (link to power node or something) or by player (in the case of gorges, you can drop 3 max). Adjust costs accordingly. Do all of these, not just one or two. Static defence only work as time creating deterrents, allowing real players to arrive and deal with a threat, not when they're commander controlled killing machines.
5. Optimisation - I won't comment on this because my input would be of literally no value. I think everyone knows what's up with this.
Edit: Oh yeah, I wanted to say this: With regards to design choices, it seems like overly rock paper scissors decisions are trumping the gameplay portions every time. To me, it feels like the game design is so focused on creating a game that works in theory that it is bordering on completely overshadowing the FPS/RTS aspects. This makes no sense to me because strategy is all well and good, but I'm not going to want to play a game where the basics are just not fun.
My point? More focus on making the FPS and RTS sides of the game enjoyable, please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I echo literally every point made here wholeheartedly.
Debuffing marines on infestation is a terrible idea that is strategically interesting but comes at the expense of a player's sense of freedom of movement. Wherever possible, you want people to feel like they aren't handicapped and one way of doing this is to afford bonuses to team X instead of debuffs to team Y. Truthfully, I don't like the idea of a buff either because the handicapped feeling still exists, albeit in a disguised form. Rather, I think we should leave it to map geometry to create (dis)advantageous areas. Another way is to have the handicap very temporary like webs, flashbangs or knockback (and even these suck).
I think the problem of static defenses is an important one. It's very dull and, at the moment, very powerful. Mu's idea that turrets and hydras should be temporary is interesting although I would probably confine this solution to marines alone. In fact, I think the notion of a temporary turret is an answer to other problems too, namely the crushing effectiveness of a simple base rush and the often cited boring commander role. Being able to actually <i>respond</i> to a situation rather than <i>prepare</i> for it keeps the game dynamic, especially from the commander's point of view. Keep permanent turrets in as well if you must but have them as weak and fragile deterrents rather than alien annihilation machines.
For aliens, the hydra might require a different solution. I don't really know what it is yet because I understand that the gorge needs to have a job besides endlessly healing and spreading infestation. What I do know is that, as it stands, the hydra is spammy and i've seen enough of them for my lifetime. At the end of the day, it's just not that fun. You want to give players a sense that progression is possible, even if unlikely. Static defences are simply too powerful and need to be limited. I can envisage competitive play being less affected by this problem perhaps but public games will suffer from this forever if it is not addressed.
Balancing a game is important. Really important. However, I want to reiterate Mu's plea for more focus on making the game enjoyable from an fps/rts perspective. Reducing shotgun cost and tweaking values is all well and good but it's whether the core movement/game mechanics are enjoyable that determines my repeat custom. If the commander or the gorge or the skulk or any integral facet isn't enjoyable or engaging, then NS2 will have let itself down considerably.
Here's to still being hopeful!
Also if this system is removed it will put more emphasis on getting resource towers and fighting over them, which I think should be the main objective other than obtaining enough prowess to make the final pushes into enemy territory.
What really should be removed is the "energy" resource, make ALL buildings with an activated comm-ability cost (suitable) res, so there's no spamming of beacons with no loss, no spamming of umbra etc.. you have to think about when using the actives, not just "when there's enough energy -->spam"
- We haven't announced any release date, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Stop telling people when you think we're going to release and pretending it's fact.
- This sounds like similar griping that was heard between TF and TF2. As a player I'm sure you feel threatened when we try new things, but if we had to make the same game over and over, then we would go work on Madden and there would be no more NS-anything.
- Most of the balance data is identical to NS1. Check balance.txt and Balance.lua and BalanceHealth.lua to see for yourself. I changed the resource model because it wasn't thought through at all when I started NS1 and isn't anything good to build on top of. We're not making an RTS, we're making an FPS that has RTS elements. There were some big problems with the resource model in NS1 which led to the game being unbalanced at every size game instead of 6v6. I considered the resource model in NS1 to be pretty flawed.
- The Alien Commander isn't properly implemented yet so please don't evaluate it yet.
- We agree with structure vs. structure play and we're working on it. You'll see a big improvement shortly with Lerk spores "confusing" sentries, which allow aliens working together to defeat sentries.
- We are not EA. We're don't have oodles of cash to work on the most technically perfect, gameplay-identical sequel which we will then released with a big marketing campaign to players who want "more of the same". We wanted to continue our tradition of NS1 where we co-develop our game with the community, taking feedback as we go, when we actually have time to take it into account and rework whole systems.
It sounds to me like you just want NS1 - well congratulations, it's available for free RIGHT NOW. We're not interested in re-making the same game and I don't think most of you want us to do the same. It sounds like NS2 (and perhaps any kind of change) is not for you.