Melee
Koruyo
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">blocking eachothers bites and swipes.</div>Alien side: Attacking in groups gets very frustrating sometimes since you block each others bites and swipes very often for no visual reason.
Seems like its because ppl are standing too close to eachother (which is unavoidable most of the time) tho not blocking each others view visually(=> its not like the other player is standing in front of you, or crosshair area), somehow the bite box of other players block your bitebox, or biteboxes are too big and close to your playermodel and tho you dont see your fellow alien friend the box somehow touches his hitbox or whatever...
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><b>This is very frustrating and needs a quick change soon.</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I cant tell how many times this already happend to me and resulted in my or another players death because the marine or structure didnt die as fast as he/it should since multiple bites or swipes got blocked and you have to run around trying to find a sweetspot thats not getting blocked.
Attacking in groups as aliens would be very important(and by logic very strong), because of this problem you have to separate more and try to attack different targets so you dont block eachother -> attacks in groups get very difficult and problematic and sometimes even less effective than running-in in very small groups, or more like one after another... (which is stupid to do)
edit: this was already discussed a little in some other thread, couldnt find it - but i thought it should get some more attention anyway(especially by devs, with maybe some input from their point of view of this problem) => making a own thread wouldnt hurt.
Seems like its because ppl are standing too close to eachother (which is unavoidable most of the time) tho not blocking each others view visually(=> its not like the other player is standing in front of you, or crosshair area), somehow the bite box of other players block your bitebox, or biteboxes are too big and close to your playermodel and tho you dont see your fellow alien friend the box somehow touches his hitbox or whatever...
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><b>This is very frustrating and needs a quick change soon.</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I cant tell how many times this already happend to me and resulted in my or another players death because the marine or structure didnt die as fast as he/it should since multiple bites or swipes got blocked and you have to run around trying to find a sweetspot thats not getting blocked.
Attacking in groups as aliens would be very important(and by logic very strong), because of this problem you have to separate more and try to attack different targets so you dont block eachother -> attacks in groups get very difficult and problematic and sometimes even less effective than running-in in very small groups, or more like one after another... (which is stupid to do)
edit: this was already discussed a little in some other thread, couldnt find it - but i thought it should get some more attention anyway(especially by devs, with maybe some input from their point of view of this problem) => making a own thread wouldnt hurt.
Comments
That is why it is not too hard to hit something with it right now (I guess the rifle-butt's box is even bigger than the alien melee attack ones, didn't check ingame) and why it might even hit something behind you.
It is also the cause of the really annoying thing that it can be pretty hard to chew on one power node (or really anything) together as aliens as you will frequently hit your fellow alien, because it is often closer to you than the enemy unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Seems</b> like a simple fix: you just prioritise enemy targets when using a melee attack, and prioritise players over structures, (or simply allow multiple targets) and tweak the attack-box.
Or you could do something a little different:
<!--quoteo(post=1892779:date=Jan 6 2012, 09:45 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 6 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember someone posting a video of L4D2's melee system in action, and I thought that was a pretty good implementation. iirc it projected "rays" or something from the animation. Ah, found it:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hwgi3MT_gyA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hwgi3MT_gyA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine melee has been fixed in 190 (still not accepted though, but it is fixed). It was indeed hitting behind the marine origin, try and stand with your back to a wall (189) you should be able to see, or rather hear it in hitting the wall.
Great to hear that it is fixed! The issue is also pretty obvious when you try to attack a marine axing / riflebutting a alien building from behind and get killed.
Fades melee also attacks behind them, I guess we will see if that is fixed along with the marine axe.
Woot, AoE bite?
Fades melee also attacks behind them, I guess we will see if that is fixed along with the marine axe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AoE bite sounds a little bit out of place, I like Harimau's approach alot more.
<!--quoteo(post=1893516:date=Jan 11 2012, 11:18 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 11 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->simple fix: you just prioritise enemy targets when using a melee attack, and prioritise players over structures, (or simply allow multiple targets) and tweak the attack-box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, why not? If 2 marines are standing right next to each other and you slash then it should hit both. It seems weird to me that it doesn't.
It would be a bit OP I believe.
I don't think so. The way I see it is that's the advantage of a melee attack, you can hit multiple targets but you need to be right next to them. At the moment the aliens are actually discouraged from attacking together and swarming on the enemy as it becomes harder to hit them the more aliens there are. It also creates problems targeting as a marine with higher health can block an attack that should have hit and killed another marine.
If the marines are dumb enough to stand right next to each other then they deserve to both be hit by 1 melee attack.
If the marines are dumb enough to stand right next to each other then they deserve to both be hit by 1 melee attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea with this you make skulk/fade/onos alot more powerful.
Harimau's suggestion adresses your problems with the melee as well, in a much better, more balanced way.
Harimau's suggestion adresses your problems with the melee as well, in a much better, more balanced way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it would make them a lot more powerful. The only time it would make a difference is when 2 players are directly next to each other or when a player is standing next to a building. In those cases I feel that the alien player should damage both. It doesn't really make any sense for a melee attack to only be able to damage 1 thing at a time. If it really was a problem they could reduce the width of the melee attacks to make aiming accurately more important and require more skill and precision, while also adding in rare moments where players can get double kills ^^
I guess we will need to agree to disagree. No way to really know unless you play test it.
Can you make an example how it would be possible? How are you going to hit muliple targets in one swipe, bite or gore(i think thats the onos atk name)?
Fade ~ sword/axe:
After hitting your fist target there is not much force left(or none at all, doubt you would cut trough the armor and body of a marine like butter), so it would be a waste of time trying to hit the other target with the remaining force(if there is any) instead of making a new swing.
Also the fade doesnt make horizontal swings, its either diagonal or vetical top to bottom.
Onos ~ rhino horn uppercut style: (swinging your horn upwards, dunno how to describe it better)
You could hit 2 targets at once that are very close with this attack(tho not with your horn), but its a lot less dmg than a direct hit with your horn on only one target. (and against structures+rine it would only hurt yourself if you try to hit both in one swing)
Skulk bite:
Nearly impossible to bite 2 ppl at once(the chance that this would happen is next to 0), and especially not a structure and a person...
If you look at the animations and the fade slash goes over two players who are next to each other then it makes sense that they would both take damage. The attack does damage within a certain area, if two targets are within that area then they should both take damage. Pointless to argue about realism, it's a video game.
Look at l4d for example, if you slash as hunter and two survivors are next to each other, they both take damage.
I just dont think it cool in ns if a alien would be able to hit lots of marines that are very close to eachother (imagine a group of marines jumping out of a phasegate, a little blocking or a bad positioned pg exit and you could make multikills in 3-4 bites, 2-3 swipes whatever. and if there are 2 or more aliens, yay instakill not only one, but a group of marines :D)
edit: ah and you are not only hitting multiple marines that walk trough with each attack, you would also dmg the phasegate at the same time - trolololol.
Multiple targets is an interesting issue, I think.
At first I was going to say that we have marine weapons that can only hit one target (e.g. the rifle and pistol use hitscan) so it is balanced for melee only being single-target. But then I remembered that we have the shotgun (although it's still balanced because damage is effectively split between targets, because it is split between pellets) and the flamethrower (which isn't really balanced) and the grenade (which does AOE damage).
I don't think it makes a lot of sense for bite to hit multiple targets though. The skulk's maw isn't that large. Same for onos gore. It would make more sense for the fade's swipe to carry the blade through multiple targets - but really, does the fade need the added advantage?
I think that with multiple targets, we either do not have attacks that can do it, or we distribute the damage amongst the targets. Naturally, I'm talking about some of the marine weapons here, since I don't believe that melee attacks should do damage to multiple targets regardless.
rifle butt to the face is bad enough, but rifle butt THROUGH the face? run THROUGH by onos? Cut TROUGH by fade? Sounds like getting killed to me.
My impression is that even though the animation plays through, the blade really stops at the first guy. This is just an engine limitation, you know, the blade animation isn't procedural so it doesn't stop where you hit.
Maybe we shouldn't discuss this.