I tried out something that lets cysts automatically grow based on how many connections they have. this emans tha cysts at teh core of the network are bigger it also means that upgrading a cyst can cause it to continue to grow as if makes more connections.
So, im basically stealing the whole previous pages ideas here.
since this is a demo I have a number of ticks required per level constant at 200. in game it would make sense for this to be slower or even curved.
But for this demo every frame we add the number of connected cysts to the age counter and update the level if it is less than the number of connected cysts.
This means that your cysts get beefy in rooms fast, but slowly in hallways and that reapirs to infestation near other infestation grow really really fast.
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/autogrow.html" target="_blank">Try it here.</a>
Edit: after talking with Zaggy on IRC it now degrades if you remove nodes as well as saving updates to the system. but so that I don't confuse any one I'm gonna keep the old link and add a new one:
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/fullauto.html" target="_blank">Auto grow and contract here</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1890126:date=Dec 13 2011, 11:31 AM:name=Confused)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Confused @ Dec 13 2011, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I tried out something that lets cysts automatically grow based on how many connections they have. this emans tha cysts at teh core of the network are bigger it also means that upgrading a cyst can cause it to continue to grow as if makes more connections.
So, im basically stealing the whole previous pages ideas here.
since this is a demo I have a number of ticks required per level constant at 200. in game it would make sense for this to be slower or even curved.
But for this demo every frame we add the number of connected cysts to the age counter and update the level if it is less than the number of connected cysts.
This means that your cysts get beefy in rooms fast, but slowly in hallways and that reapirs to infestation near other infestation grow really really fast.
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/autogrow.html" target="_blank">Try it here.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like that version, Confused. Reinforcing networks feels much more intuitive and natural, and it makes sense that areas with a lot of densely packed cysts would be the most powerful and resistant to damage, since they're the most expensive kind of area and the most rewarding for Marines to destroy.
I also like how new cysts don't immediately become upgraded/hardened, but instead gain those attributes over time after placement. I feel like that could be a really viable mechanic to balance the ability to toughen up cysts with the ability to place them near front-line areas.
Just an aesthetic adjustment that has been suggested by others: have the khaam place a 'pheromone waypoint' that directs the vines to grow to a point, where they intersect a cyst is grown. Functionally, it will work the same way, but the growth would appear more natural. The vines will grow out fairly quickly - pointing towards the location where a cyst will begin to grow and eventually harden. This will make it more difficult to expand DI and cysts in areas with marine presence. If the marines see the vines growing, they will be alerted to the new cyst placement ahead of time. The cyst will again HP over time, so killing it as soon as it starts to grow would be very quick/easy in comparison to a cyst that has been in place for a while (or with many connected cysts).
This would also encourage more alien teamplay around protecting the DI expansion. Alien players would see these 'pheromone waypoints' signaling the khaams expansion plans. A few marines could hamper the expansion pretty easily if there are no aliens to confront them. This gives the DI network weakness at the edges and during expansion while maintaining resiliency at the core and making older growth tougher to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1890126:date=Dec 13 2011, 06:31 PM:name=Confused)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Confused @ Dec 13 2011, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: after talking with Zaggy on IRC it now degrades if you remove nodes as well as saving updates to the system. but so that I don't confuse any one I'm gonna keep the old link and add a new one:
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/fullauto.html" target="_blank">Auto grow and contract here</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this implementation alot, although the page itself is very buggy for me to use (the slider keeps comming down and covering half the map, while the scroll gets stuck.. Also clearing/backspace doesn't work for me.
I like the auto-grow system better. It requires less cyst clicking, so it should prevent that 'oh crap i didn't upgrade that.
As far as the general implementation I am hoping there is more visual feedback. The thickness of the lines as you stretch the space between should be more distinct It should be more obvious when you can NOT place a cyst. Will there be visual feedback for the upgraded cysts? Numbers will be too annoying. A color scheme that goes from light brown to green? A system of rings around the cyst?
The last thought I have is the possibility of adjusting cysts after they have been placed. I can picture a commander throwing down 5 cysts in a circle and then tweaking them to specific spots.
You mentioned world of goo for inspiration. I also strongly suggest that you google "the space game"(<a href="http://www.kongregate.com/games/CasualCollective/the-space-game" target="_blank">TSG</a>, <a href="http://www.kongregate.com/games/CasualCollective/the-space-game-missions?acomplete=the+space+game" target="_blank">TSG: missions</a> ); it's a flash-based RTS game based on asteroid mining.
You connect solar panels, energy stores, relays, cannons, mining nodes and so on into a network. Expanding or rebuilding destroyed parts of the network consumes a lot of energy, so if you try to do too much all at once you run into energy problems. If you make the network long and spindly it is difficult to defend from attack.
I'd like to point out that if you place 15+ cysts in Alien Start, the way the Infestation grows out of single cyst trails leading from that looks very organic and natural. Perhaps each hive could count as 10-something cysts for the purpose of infestation pathing?
When DI was mentioned in the first trailer, I liked the idea of it being used offensively.
If it builds up around a base. You should be able to use it to disable that base- or the turrets at least- as a com triggered DI surge.
In terms of a mechanic:
number of cysts x cyst energy buildup = range of target x size of disable effect
Something that doesn't encourage whole map cyst spam and assists fun gameplay. The current iteration toward "regen" and "scent of fear" nerfs the early alien game by forcing aliens to come back to base to regen and the marine mid and late game by making ninja'ing difficult.
<!--quoteo(post=1890154:date=Dec 13 2011, 02:48 PM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Dec 13 2011, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something that doesn't encourage whole map cyst spam and assists fun gameplay. The current iteration toward "regen" and "scent of fear" nerfs the early alien game by forcing aliens to come back to base to regen and the marine mid and late game by making ninja'ing difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current implementation doesn't "nerf" anything. Skulks can kill marines just fine without being on infestation. If Skulks suddenly lost the ability to attack when off of infestation, or if they started dying when they left it, that would be a "nerf".
One thing I've noticed playing with this prototype is that the cysts in the corners of passageways are usually the weakest links. This is just due to the geometry of the network trying to turn right-angles. Killing 2-3 cysts at these corner junctions would easily sever the network there unless extra cysts are built up. This is an interesting emergent property of the system and how it interacts with 'human' type architecture.
I can see this causing lots of skirmishes in these areas. More curved areas of a level allow for more interconnected cysts to be placed, but sharply angled spaces make robust expansion more difficult. It's a very interesting effect of the level design and the DI network affecting each other.
So, I have spent a while playing with the final tool I made.
I actually like the auto upgrade concept. In part they seem to replicate the old wall of lame feel from ns. it stands to reason that this is a good thing that one can take a region and make it an ailen strong point. This makes gorges more able to fill the area denial role as well since adding nodes to vents and the like can pay of in the long run.
It seems like there really should be a cap on the upgradey-ness of the cysts. nodes that are bigger than about 7 are so huge that the vines reach essentially as far as the eye can see, which makes things very difficult to counter if the vines stretch across entire room.
I guess one could counter that by limiting infestation spread and making the vines vulnerable to the axe.
The system means that marine attack on a strong point are going to need to be very difficult, but that the chain that links them to the other areas will be vulnerable, particularly by a few ninja marines. this would be especially true if vine and infestation were not the same radius from the node. There would be a gap on the longer vines where a marine could hit it without triggering hive sight, damage notifications aside.
All of this assumes that the regenerative ability would increase with the level in the upgraded areas, which seems reasonable. Otherwise, the rooms with 20+ level nodes are extravagant wastes of resources.
I am envisioning the lone marine hacking at this vine in a hall way while the skulks try to get him. would be fun.
I put this in my "musings on infestation" thread, but here goes again:
Make alien upgrade structures' buffs and/or spells so that their area of effect is based on cysts. Just as a sample:
For the sake of this argument, let's say that an upgrade structure (crag) links into a cyst network just like cysts do. However, it does not affect the LEVEL of any cyst, it is simply passive.
Let's say the Crag has a triggered ability that shoots out a gas for 10 seconds. This gas dramatically increases alien regen for those 10 seconds, as well as acts as a mild umbra. (stops less of a % of bullets compared to true umbra)
The gas shoots out in a 3 meter radius from the crag itself. The gas also shoots out 1.5 meters from <b>every cyst linked directly to the crag</b>.
So here's the deal. A super umbra + regen probably would not make it into the game. However, infestation boosts regen, right? Maybe the crag gives a bonus regen to the infestation around itself and around those first-degree cysts. Maybe its existing auto-heal puffs will leak from the cysts to give a visual cue.
Here's the important part - why does this help the game?
-Simply put, gives the network a strategic purpose other than building. -Gives the alien a reason to network efficiently. If the commander spams cysts, only the few closest to the crag will get this bonus. However, if he finds a way to stretch each individual link, one crag could cover a large area. -Gives an additional purpose to leveling cysts. If the commander has the res to do this, cysts that are normally two degrees from the crag might have enough tendrils to directly connect, expanding the bonus. -Makes upgrade buildings truly strategic and valuable targets to take down. Marines can largely ignore crags, and even ill-placed whips right now. -Visual cues of a cyst's upgrade warns marines there is a target ahead. -Gives marines a "tangible" reason to cut off a network. (cut-off crags would NOT supply a buff) -By encouraging aliens to thin the cyst spam and adjusting costs, marines actually have a realistic chance of cutting a network off. (right now the alien commander can drop more and more cysts, making this strategy impossible)
Right now, as a marine, I largely ignore the network entirely. I do not feel it is dangerous or is something to pay attention to unless it is in our base blocking our building areas. I want infestation to feel like a tool, not a weird building limitation + cosmetic feature.
Thanks for all the suggestions and changes guys. Lots to think about here.
I especially like the idea of the alien upgrade structures getting buffed by cysts, although visually that is tricky because it doesn't look like a cyst should heal you, or "shade" you. It's possible that alien upgrade structures could scale their effects by the # of nearby cysts (ie, they heal more or faster or at longer range), but that's not a simple change either.
I had an idea, how about allowing infestation closest to hive darken in color, look like it has a rock solid shell (that's whats dark), while the more outer furthermost parts of infestation nice and light like it is now or a bit lighter, representing fresh infestation. But the idea I had tho for functionality is, the closest to hive is stronger (so more HP and a level of armor) and the further out the infestation grows the more stronger the infestation gets that is closest to the hive... also it doesn't recede in strength, so once it's 5+hp then it remains 5+hp. All this upgrading to armor is automatic and doesn't work by lvl 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but rather maths, like every 8 feet of infestation 4+hp to infestation closest to hive(then gets less hp increase the further it is from the hive), and so the hp spreads with the infestation. leaving the fresh infestation always the same health and easy to kill. but later it get harder to kill, and so keeping the aliens under pressure by not allowing them to gain heaps of land will be vital in keeping it weak, cutting routes off will take longer if you try to take out bigger chunks because of the hp increase. but in doing so, will cause the infestation left out to recede to cysts. Also you could make cysts act as little hives only able to keep a certain radius of infestation alive, that helps so not all is lost if marines manage to cut main supply(connection to hive) off. Now to deal with the ability problem, infestation that is closest to hive, doesn't grow quickly, doesn't heal quickly, but does have more hp so doesn't die quickly and also has an armor bonus, the older the infestation gets also makes it stronger(so maybe have armor increase as the infestation gets older, so the infestation closest to hive would have more armor, compared to the newest grown infestation that would have little hp and no armor), if marines were to cut off some stronger/darker infestation the light weak infestation will grow out so it can reconnect or spread out, this helps so instead of having an epic long drawn out time spent to wait for the thick strong stuff to grow, it just grows the weak stuff which is quicker, spreads more, and so can reconnect to any cyst/infestation it may have been cut off from. So light infestation, weak but fast growing, heavy/thick/dark infestation, doesn't grow fast but strong. Infestation that is the light weaker kind heals allies, the slow strong infestation heals a little bit to none, it's hp is the up side, hard to kill, and structures built on it grow faster. The healing structure allows for nearby infestation to emit spores so that lerks can fly by and get healed, also the healing structure heals in waves not progressive.(infestation heals progressively, cysts have a slight 1.25x healing increase to those around it, while I think there called crags, those healing structures, having them emit spores to those around it, healing them in chunks, the more personal around one the faster it emits it's spores and so the quicker you can reach full health; look at the moon wells on Warcraft 3 when auto healing is switched on, but think of that with the crags just an decrease in cooldown if more aliens are in it's range to help) The marines that run on the stronger infestation are slowed down more but not allot(if currently infestation slows them down by 10% then the most they get slowed down by is 15-25% depending on making is reasonable). The idea in all this is that infestation near hive is hard to kill and gives bonuses to keeping the aliens up and alive for longer while defending their base, but infestation that's just beginning to grow, is weak but grows more rapidly, helps support the aliens frontlines, but can be eliminated fairly quick. As for how it should grow, I think the current ideas are great, my only suggestion is having it grow in all directions when cysts are planted until it reaches the cysts radius of influence, while vines are used to connect cysts that are far apart, tho if two cysts are far apart and the one is cut off from the hive then the one that is still connected will slowly spread infestation and/or very small vines to the other cyst, if both are connected then both cysts will grow to one another to bridge the gap. But being commander you can use the bigger vines to connect the gap allot faster, but it will obviously cost. Also if cysts are close but technically not directly connected they will not try connect(causing potentially infestation overlapping each other, doing so may cause lag). Cysts should be able to be upgraded or upgrade themselves depending on how many cysts are connected to it, 4 levels, each making the cyst bigger but stronger, this helps the marines see the prioritized cysts but also allows the cyst to spread fast infestation in a larger radius and support it if cut off from hive. if we take a cyst that's lets say level 4, it will have more health than a level one, being harder to kill and thus staying alive, longer.
These are all my ideas on how infestation can be, take what you think should be or work, remember that the easiest process isn't always the best process. but then again, it could be. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1890186:date=Dec 14 2011, 02:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Dec 14 2011, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for all the suggestions and changes guys. Lots to think about here.
I especially like the idea of the alien upgrade structures getting buffed by cysts, although visually that is tricky because it doesn't look like a cyst should heal you, or "shade" you. It's possible that alien upgrade structures could scale their effects by the # of nearby cysts (ie, they heal more or faster or at longer range), but that's not a simple change either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cysts can always change in the way they look so they can perhaps support the idea
I'm going to need several drinks, climbing gear, a trained spotter, and a rescue chopper standing by before I even think of climbing that wall of text.
I kinda like the idea of thick infestation spread being an actual resource. Like the larger area you cover in infestation the more hive energy you get or something like that. Make it so that just placing a single cyst chain creates a really thin strand of infestation. You'd need to choose between quickly expanding to res towers and then not having much hive energy, or spreading the infestation thicker but not expanding as fast and having less RTs. Hive energy would need be used for upgrades or something though in order to really make both options strategic viable in certain situations.
It would really make the aliens play a lot differently from the marines if all their upgrades were tied into energy which was dependent on infestation spread, while their lifeforms would still require Res to evolve.
I also thought it would always be cool if you had different types of structures that you could place on the res nodes which would do different things. Like the upgrade structures had to be built on the res nodes, making them more vulnerable and forcing expansion.
^ I like the idea of infestation being a resource for Kharaa, Wilson. It would really encourage the sort of thick growth I've always been hoping to see in heavily controlled alien areas, and it really adds to the asymmetry of the teams.
Maturing an upgrade chamber causes nearby Cysts to mature when connected to the chamber; mature Cysts can have more tendrils connected to them, reinforcing the nodes further.
<!--quoteo(post=1890198:date=Dec 13 2011, 10:31 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Dec 13 2011, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something of a suggestion:
Maturing an upgrade chamber causes nearby Cysts to mature when connected to the chamber; mature Cysts can have more tendrils connected to them, reinforcing the nodes further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea. Could synergize well with automatic cyst reinforcement/maturation over time upon additional cyst connection.
I think as far as upgradeing and hp of cysts we should let nature take care of that ... Ie the large or more connections to the hive the more nutrients the more hp ... EX if you want a forward cyct to have high hp you can't just make it stronger unless you strengthen it's support and renforce... Cool result if you connect cyst chains they all increase in hp... That chain from hive A to B is very strong...,
Oh and quick pitch for power node cyst that can be built on destroyed or unbuilt power nodes... Result atmospheric changes(lights fog and such). And interference for marien comm in those rooms(comm can't see anything in alien hive unless he scans or marine kills powe cyst, if rine wants a med pack comm is dropping blind unless he scans or kills power cyst). Maybe cool static effect for the the comm...
Quick reason I think it should be a power cyct and not a natural part of infestation, early game first min or so dont want rine com to see or "not see" where you are... Let alien comm deside when to implement this.
I think you have a really awesome idea going here. The only thing I think will add to a lot of things is making the commander just able to place vines, and for the gorges just to place cysts.
The vines just grow like 5 feet outwards The cysts (only able to be placed by gorges) would grow in like a 20 foot radius. --<i>The reason for this is to make the gorge more essential, and I will explain this later.</i>
The vines cover little area and don't allow much space for placing structures, while the cysts cover a lot of surface area but not a lot of distance. Cysts would need to be placed within ~20 feet (3D radius) from any point in the vine. --<i>This would make gorges immensely important to game play. It would force gorge and commander to be more cooperative, and would allow for all sorts of variations of play styles. </i>
<b>In-Game example:</b> It's the start of the game and the pug game has just started. Someone jumps into the command chair and yells at someone to become a gorge. Someone quickly goes gorge while the commander streches small thin vines out toward Data Core. As soon as the gorge is hatched, the commander tells the gorge to place a couple cysts in spawn then head out to Reactor place a cysts by the Extractor then head to Data Core and place a cyst and a couple hydras. The commander then quickly places a hive. --<i>This scenario shows a reasonable amount of cooperation between 2 players. It doesn't require any of pre-game strategies and could easily be seen in a game. Many other possibilities are open too like placing vines to both extractors and then have the gorge place cysts at spawn and both extractors.</i>
This would not only effect early game but also later game: It's late game and the aliens are falling behind. The marines are farther in tech and have more extractor points. The aliens need a good push. The alien commander tells a gorge to get ready. The commander tells the gorge to push towards Flight Control and place cysts once the vines are down. The commander quickly does a very thin line of vines from alien start to the outside corridor of the marine start. The commander then sends 2 drifters over while the gorge places a couple cysts and maybe some hydras. The commander then drops down 2 crags and the aliens have a small base to work off of right out side the alien start. --<i>In this way the game could easily change course in a few seconds by some witty moves by the commander and a gorge. It allows for a commander and a gorge to push close to outside a marine base and set up a small base without wasting all of their energy and resources and fail to have any resources or energy left to place structures.</i>
As a commander I know it is sometimes hard to macro everything at once so having someone helping you like a gorge is a very big help and would make thing easier in my perspective. I don't think any of these changes would make commanding harder, but rather just give another approach to commanding.
Although these are some pretty big changes, I think this should also give you some more ideas
Note: Sorry I haven't played to much of the later builds due to my bad computer but I'm getting a new one soon so I'll start playing a lot more! For this, I may have gotten some of the area's names wrong so I do apologize.
Tell me what you think about this and what the pros/cons for this would be.
One more thing with the "vines" are we talking about them growing on walls and the ground or reaching across space like a tree or something...
I'm thinking about placing cysts on the sides of a door and a vine growing across and blocking it.... Or vines reaching floor to celling in alien start creating way cool atmo affect and more things to climb and jump from.
@inFamous: That idea looks pretty cool and workable actually.
Maybe the idea here is that Alien Commander tendril shoots out from the Hive, and infestation will gradually (and quite slowly) generate from the vine, eventually encompass a hallway given enough time (procedural?)
Gorge Cysts however, lack the range of infestation spread distance-wise, but can very quickly generate a sustainable patch of infestation in a large area (like the current Cysts.) This makes Gorge an essential asset for forward expansions, to provide space for Alien Commander to build without having to wait as long with the vines.
Better yet, the infestation will actually feel organic since it spreads from the Hive on out, unlike the current click and spontaneous growth.
It would be interesting if vines are not damageable by Marines (Cysts still are). The Flamethrower can be brought to its original purpose; it can torch vines into ashes, allowing Marines to sever a vine connection.
Comments
So, im basically stealing the whole previous pages ideas here.
since this is a demo I have a number of ticks required per level constant at 200. in game it would make sense for this to be slower or even curved.
But for this demo every frame we add the number of connected cysts to the age counter and update the level if it is less than the number of connected cysts.
This means that your cysts get beefy in rooms fast, but slowly in hallways and that reapirs to infestation near other infestation grow really really fast.
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/autogrow.html" target="_blank">Try it here.</a>
Edit: after talking with Zaggy on IRC it now degrades if you remove nodes as well as saving updates to the system. but so that I don't confuse any one I'm gonna keep the old link and add a new one:
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/fullauto.html" target="_blank">Auto grow and contract here</a>
So, im basically stealing the whole previous pages ideas here.
since this is a demo I have a number of ticks required per level constant at 200. in game it would make sense for this to be slower or even curved.
But for this demo every frame we add the number of connected cysts to the age counter and update the level if it is less than the number of connected cysts.
This means that your cysts get beefy in rooms fast, but slowly in hallways and that reapirs to infestation near other infestation grow really really fast.
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/autogrow.html" target="_blank">Try it here.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like that version, Confused. Reinforcing networks feels much more intuitive and natural, and it makes sense that areas with a lot of densely packed cysts would be the most powerful and resistant to damage, since they're the most expensive kind of area and the most rewarding for Marines to destroy.
I also like how new cysts don't immediately become upgraded/hardened, but instead gain those attributes over time after placement. I feel like that could be a really viable mechanic to balance the ability to toughen up cysts with the ability to place them near front-line areas.
This would also encourage more alien teamplay around protecting the DI expansion. Alien players would see these 'pheromone waypoints' signaling the khaams expansion plans. A few marines could hamper the expansion pretty easily if there are no aliens to confront them. This gives the DI network weakness at the edges and during expansion while maintaining resiliency at the core and making older growth tougher to kill.
Great work Confused!
<a href="http://housemark.co/games/ns2-infest/fullauto.html" target="_blank">Auto grow and contract here</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this implementation alot, although the page itself is very buggy for me to use (the slider keeps comming down and covering half the map, while the scroll gets stuck.. Also clearing/backspace doesn't work for me.
I missed the backspace thing, should be updated shortly.
I'm not really sure about the slider thing you are talking about. What browser/OS are you using?
It requires less cyst clicking, so it should prevent that 'oh crap i didn't upgrade that.
As far as the general implementation
I am hoping there is more visual feedback.
The thickness of the lines as you stretch the space between should be more distinct
It should be more obvious when you can NOT place a cyst.
Will there be visual feedback for the upgraded cysts?
Numbers will be too annoying. A color scheme that goes from light brown to green? A system of rings around the cyst?
The last thought I have is the possibility of adjusting cysts after they have been placed.
I can picture a commander throwing down 5 cysts in a circle and then tweaking them to specific spots.
You connect solar panels, energy stores, relays, cannons, mining nodes and so on into a network. Expanding or rebuilding destroyed parts of the network consumes a lot of energy, so if you try to do too much all at once you run into energy problems. If you make the network long and spindly it is difficult to defend from attack.
So, I'm mapping the keys to delete instead.
will update the instructions to match.
Edit: the update is in and I added for red cant place node icons if you cant place a cyst.
just for you king mob.
Cysts could regenerate over time.
The more connections to a cyst, the faster it regenerates.
or maybe with the upgraded cyst, means that you cant kill it ( or see it) until there is only one cyst attached to it.. something like that
If it builds up around a base. You should be able to use it to disable that base- or the turrets at least- as a com triggered DI surge.
In terms of a mechanic:
number of cysts x cyst energy buildup = range of target x size of disable effect
Something that doesn't encourage whole map cyst spam and assists fun gameplay. The current iteration toward "regen" and "scent of fear" nerfs the early alien game by forcing aliens to come back to base to regen and the marine mid and late game by making ninja'ing difficult.
The current implementation doesn't "nerf" anything. Skulks can kill marines just fine without being on infestation. If Skulks suddenly lost the ability to attack when off of infestation, or if they started dying when they left it, that would be a "nerf".
In NS1 skulks could regen anywhere.
Now there is no regen in the early alien game.
Call it what-ever you want.
I can see this causing lots of skirmishes in these areas. More curved areas of a level allow for more interconnected cysts to be placed, but sharply angled spaces make robust expansion more difficult. It's a very interesting effect of the level design and the DI network affecting each other.
EDIT: effect/affect typo
I actually like the auto upgrade concept. In part they seem to replicate the old wall of lame feel from ns. it stands to reason that this is a good thing that one can take a region and make it an ailen strong point. This makes gorges more able to fill the area denial role as well since adding nodes to vents and the like can pay of in the long run.
It seems like there really should be a cap on the upgradey-ness of the cysts. nodes that are bigger than about 7 are so huge that the vines reach essentially as far as the eye can see, which makes things very difficult to counter if the vines stretch across entire room.
I guess one could counter that by limiting infestation spread and making the vines vulnerable to the axe.
The system means that marine attack on a strong point are going to need to be very difficult, but that the chain that links them to the other areas will be vulnerable, particularly by a few ninja marines. this would be especially true if vine and infestation were not the same radius from the node. There would be a gap on the longer vines where a marine could hit it without triggering hive sight, damage notifications aside.
All of this assumes that the regenerative ability would increase with the level in the upgraded areas, which seems reasonable. Otherwise, the rooms with 20+ level nodes are extravagant wastes of resources.
I am envisioning the lone marine hacking at this vine in a hall way while the skulks try to get him. would be fun.
Make alien upgrade structures' buffs and/or spells so that their area of effect is based on cysts. Just as a sample:
For the sake of this argument, let's say that an upgrade structure (crag) links into a cyst network just like cysts do. However, it does not affect the LEVEL of any cyst, it is simply passive.
Let's say the Crag has a triggered ability that shoots out a gas for 10 seconds. This gas dramatically increases alien regen for those 10 seconds, as well as acts as a mild umbra. (stops less of a % of bullets compared to true umbra)
The gas shoots out in a 3 meter radius from the crag itself. The gas also shoots out 1.5 meters from <b>every cyst linked directly to the crag</b>.
So here's the deal. A super umbra + regen probably would not make it into the game. However, infestation boosts regen, right? Maybe the crag gives a bonus regen to the infestation around itself and around those first-degree cysts. Maybe its existing auto-heal puffs will leak from the cysts to give a visual cue.
Here's the important part - why does this help the game?
-Simply put, gives the network a strategic purpose other than building.
-Gives the alien a reason to network efficiently. If the commander spams cysts, only the few closest to the crag will get this bonus. However, if he finds a way to stretch each individual link, one crag could cover a large area.
-Gives an additional purpose to leveling cysts. If the commander has the res to do this, cysts that are normally two degrees from the crag might have enough tendrils to directly connect, expanding the bonus.
-Makes upgrade buildings truly strategic and valuable targets to take down. Marines can largely ignore crags, and even ill-placed whips right now.
-Visual cues of a cyst's upgrade warns marines there is a target ahead.
-Gives marines a "tangible" reason to cut off a network. (cut-off crags would NOT supply a buff)
-By encouraging aliens to thin the cyst spam and adjusting costs, marines actually have a realistic chance of cutting a network off. (right now the alien commander can drop more and more cysts, making this strategy impossible)
Right now, as a marine, I largely ignore the network entirely. I do not feel it is dangerous or is something to pay attention to unless it is in our base blocking our building areas. I want infestation to feel like a tool, not a weird building limitation + cosmetic feature.
I especially like the idea of the alien upgrade structures getting buffed by cysts, although visually that is tricky because it doesn't look like a cyst should heal you, or "shade" you. It's possible that alien upgrade structures could scale their effects by the # of nearby cysts (ie, they heal more or faster or at longer range), but that's not a simple change either.
<a href="http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/six-degrees-of-separation/" target="_blank">http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/six-degrees-of-separation/</a>
It describes pretty accurately how EVERY network works. Maybe you can take a look at it and get some ideas out of it. :)
But the idea I had tho for functionality is, the closest to hive is stronger (so more HP and a level of armor) and the further out the infestation grows the more stronger the infestation gets that is closest to the hive... also it doesn't recede in strength, so once it's 5+hp then it remains 5+hp. All this upgrading to armor is automatic and doesn't work by lvl 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but rather maths, like every 8 feet of infestation 4+hp to infestation closest to hive(then gets less hp increase the further it is from the hive), and so the hp spreads with the infestation. leaving the fresh infestation always the same health and easy to kill. but later it get harder to kill, and so keeping the aliens under pressure by not allowing them to gain heaps of land will be vital in keeping it weak, cutting routes off will take longer if you try to take out bigger chunks because of the hp increase. but in doing so, will cause the infestation left out to recede to cysts. Also you could make cysts act as little hives only able to keep a certain radius of infestation alive, that helps so not all is lost if marines manage to cut main supply(connection to hive) off.
Now to deal with the ability problem, infestation that is closest to hive, doesn't grow quickly, doesn't heal quickly, but does have more hp so doesn't die quickly and also has an armor bonus, the older the infestation gets also makes it stronger(so maybe have armor increase as the infestation gets older, so the infestation closest to hive would have more armor, compared to the newest grown infestation that would have little hp and no armor), if marines were to cut off some stronger/darker infestation the light weak infestation will grow out so it can reconnect or spread out, this helps so instead of having an epic long drawn out time spent to wait for the thick strong stuff to grow, it just grows the weak stuff which is quicker, spreads more, and so can reconnect to any cyst/infestation it may have been cut off from. So light infestation, weak but fast growing, heavy/thick/dark infestation, doesn't grow fast but strong. Infestation that is the light weaker kind heals allies, the slow strong infestation heals a little bit to none, it's hp is the up side, hard to kill, and structures built on it grow faster. The healing structure allows for nearby infestation to emit spores so that lerks can fly by and get healed, also the healing structure heals in waves not progressive.(infestation heals progressively, cysts have a slight 1.25x healing increase to those around it, while I think there called crags, those healing structures, having them emit spores to those around it, healing them in chunks, the more personal around one the faster it emits it's spores and so the quicker you can reach full health; look at the moon wells on Warcraft 3 when auto healing is switched on, but think of that with the crags just an decrease in cooldown if more aliens are in it's range to help) The marines that run on the stronger infestation are slowed down more but not allot(if currently infestation slows them down by 10% then the most they get slowed down by is 15-25% depending on making is reasonable). The idea in all this is that infestation near hive is hard to kill and gives bonuses to keeping the aliens up and alive for longer while defending their base, but infestation that's just beginning to grow, is weak but grows more rapidly, helps support the aliens frontlines, but can be eliminated fairly quick. As for how it should grow, I think the current ideas are great, my only suggestion is having it grow in all directions when cysts are planted until it reaches the cysts radius of influence, while vines are used to connect cysts that are far apart, tho if two cysts are far apart and the one is cut off from the hive then the one that is still connected will slowly spread infestation and/or very small vines to the other cyst, if both are connected then both cysts will grow to one another to bridge the gap. But being commander you can use the bigger vines to connect the gap allot faster, but it will obviously cost. Also if cysts are close but technically not directly connected they will not try connect(causing potentially infestation overlapping each other, doing so may cause lag). Cysts should be able to be upgraded or upgrade themselves depending on how many cysts are connected to it, 4 levels, each making the cyst bigger but stronger, this helps the marines see the prioritized cysts but also allows the cyst to spread fast infestation in a larger radius and support it if cut off from hive. if we take a cyst that's lets say level 4, it will have more health than a level one, being harder to kill and thus staying alive, longer.
These are all my ideas on how infestation can be, take what you think should be or work, remember that the easiest process isn't always the best process. but then again, it could be. :P
I especially like the idea of the alien upgrade structures getting buffed by cysts, although visually that is tricky because it doesn't look like a cyst should heal you, or "shade" you. It's possible that alien upgrade structures could scale their effects by the # of nearby cysts (ie, they heal more or faster or at longer range), but that's not a simple change either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts can always change in the way they look so they can perhaps support the idea
It would really make the aliens play a lot differently from the marines if all their upgrades were tied into energy which was dependent on infestation spread, while their lifeforms would still require Res to evolve.
I also thought it would always be cool if you had different types of structures that you could place on the res nodes which would do different things. Like the upgrade structures had to be built on the res nodes, making them more vulnerable and forcing expansion.
Just throwing ideas out there.
Maturing an upgrade chamber causes nearby Cysts to mature when connected to the chamber; mature Cysts can have more tendrils connected to them, reinforcing the nodes further.
Maturing an upgrade chamber causes nearby Cysts to mature when connected to the chamber; mature Cysts can have more tendrils connected to them, reinforcing the nodes further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea. Could synergize well with automatic cyst reinforcement/maturation over time upon additional cyst connection.
EX if you want a forward cyct to have high hp you can't just make it stronger unless you strengthen it's support and renforce... Cool result if you connect cyst chains they all increase in hp... That chain from hive A to B is very strong...,
Oh and quick pitch for power node cyst that can be built on destroyed or unbuilt power nodes... Result atmospheric changes(lights fog and such). And interference for marien comm in those rooms(comm can't see anything in alien hive unless he scans or marine kills powe cyst, if rine wants a med pack comm is dropping blind unless he scans or kills power cyst). Maybe cool static effect for the the comm...
Quick reason I think it should be a power cyct and not a natural part of infestation, early game first min or so dont want rine com to see or "not see" where you are... Let alien comm deside when to implement this.
The vines just grow like 5 feet outwards
The cysts (only able to be placed by gorges) would grow in like a 20 foot radius.
--<i>The reason for this is to make the gorge more essential, and I will explain this later.</i>
The vines cover little area and don't allow much space for placing structures, while the cysts cover a lot of surface area but not a lot of distance. Cysts would need to be placed within ~20 feet (3D radius) from any point in the vine.
--<i>This would make gorges immensely important to game play. It would force gorge and commander to be more cooperative, and would allow for all sorts of variations of play styles.
</i>
<b>In-Game example:</b>
It's the start of the game and the pug game has just started. Someone jumps into the command chair and yells at someone to become a gorge. Someone quickly goes gorge while the commander streches small thin vines out toward Data Core. As soon as the gorge is hatched, the commander tells the gorge to place a couple cysts in spawn then head out to Reactor place a cysts by the Extractor then head to Data Core and place a cyst and a couple hydras. The commander then quickly places a hive.
--<i>This scenario shows a reasonable amount of cooperation between 2 players. It doesn't require any of pre-game strategies and could easily be seen in a game. Many other possibilities are open too like placing vines to both extractors and then have the gorge place cysts at spawn and both extractors.</i>
This would not only effect early game but also later game:
It's late game and the aliens are falling behind. The marines are farther in tech and have more extractor points. The aliens need a good push. The alien commander tells a gorge to get ready. The commander tells the gorge to push towards Flight Control and place cysts once the vines are down. The commander quickly does a very thin line of vines from alien start to the outside corridor of the marine start. The commander then sends 2 drifters over while the gorge places a couple cysts and maybe some hydras. The commander then drops down 2 crags and the aliens have a small base to work off of right out side the alien start.
--<i>In this way the game could easily change course in a few seconds by some witty moves by the commander and a gorge. It allows for a commander and a gorge to push close to outside a marine base and set up a small base without wasting all of their energy and resources and fail to have any resources or energy left to place structures.</i>
As a commander I know it is sometimes hard to macro everything at once so having someone helping you like a gorge is a very big help and would make thing easier in my perspective. I don't think any of these changes would make commanding harder, but rather just give another approach to commanding.
Although these are some pretty big changes, I think this should also give you some more ideas
Note: Sorry I haven't played to much of the later builds due to my bad computer but I'm getting a new one soon so I'll start playing a lot more! For this, I may have gotten some of the area's names wrong so I do apologize.
Tell me what you think about this and what the pros/cons for this would be.
I'm thinking about placing cysts on the sides of a door and a vine growing across and blocking it.... Or vines reaching floor to celling in alien start creating way cool atmo affect and more things to climb and jump from.
Maybe the idea here is that Alien Commander tendril shoots out from the Hive, and infestation will gradually (and quite slowly) generate from the vine, eventually encompass a hallway given enough time (procedural?)
Gorge Cysts however, lack the range of infestation spread distance-wise, but can very quickly generate a sustainable patch of infestation in a large area (like the current Cysts.) This makes Gorge an essential asset for forward expansions, to provide space for Alien Commander to build without having to wait as long with the vines.
Better yet, the infestation will actually feel organic since it spreads from the Hive on out, unlike the current click and spontaneous growth.
It would be interesting if vines are not damageable by Marines (Cysts still are). The Flamethrower can be brought to its original purpose; it can torch vines into ashes, allowing Marines to sever a vine connection.