Musings on Infestation
Deadzone
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I like that tool Charlie was playing with on the latest twitter video - looks like fun!
There are some really nice ideas in there, and there are some concerns that it brings up for me.
The concerns largely center around how I already feel about infestation. Right now it is an absolute chore for the marines to destroy the infestation. It just doesn't go down easily, and I did not see any advantage to using a flamethrower at all. I had a lot of trouble hitting the "sweet spot" to burn it, and even then, it burned very slowly. Much faster to pop cysts.
I can compare it to resource tower killing. Killing one RT is fine, and often it will not be rebuilt seconds later. You get a sense of accomplishment knowing you damaged the enemy economy, and they have to spend time rebuilding. Compare that to a marine trying to sever a network. I've walk down a hallway, killing cysts as I go, but more often than not, I would turn around and see that the alien commander has plopped all new ones down behind me.
Not only can it make a player feel like they wasted their time, but they get no feedback that they were doing something useful.
Personally, I think the flamethrower needs to suck as a weapon, but be dedicated to clearing infestation. And it needs to do its one job well.
That being said, the idea of interlocking vines is really cool, as is having a "network advantage." The issue is that this will entice Alien commanders to spam cysts more often. This is not cool unless the destroying cysts vs rebuilding cysts is looked over. I have every confidence that UWE will fix this (or that marine teams will work together better) and that the issue will eventually be solved, but please do not forget it.
I love the idea that the aliens get a bonus from players dying on infestation. <b>The concept that aliens WANT controlled intruders is really cool</b>, especially if dead aliens help as much as a dead marine. It would add a sense of danger when trying to ninja, and would provide satisfaction of marines destroying infestation, because they're clearing a huge hazard.
A thread on gorges suggested making the voluptuous little guys true "masters of infestation." I think it would be awesome to see gorges specialize in dealing with marines ON the infestation, while other aliens are evolved with the goals of taking the fight to the marines OFF the infestation. Not that there isn't some room for cross-over, but another solid role for the gorge combined with carnivorous infestation would be fun.
-Maybe the gorge could suck some sort of special fluid out of the infested ground (or out of an absorbed body) to add a special one-shot property to his next bilebomb. It would take a little time, but rewards the gorge for playing in his intended areas.
-If the gorge finds recently-deceased bodies off the infestation, he can either suck the fluid for his attack, or plant a special Corpse Cyst that beams a mini-bonus back to the main infestation.
Going back to infestation boosts from dead players and networking - what if the cyst nearest the death got a growth increase (or healed, or got a "level up" per the video), and that bonus is also shared with the cysts linked to that original one? Not only would networks be encouraged, but placement strategy would be required so that a kill in one location will affect the most cysts and the widest area possible. (like using a clever vent route to boost a room further away than the marines expect)
-By limiting the bonus to ONLY the directly linked cysts in the web (or perhaps to the second degree), it reduces the alien commander's desire to spam. Because the vines/links are automatically made by the game, care has to be taken so that the bonus isn't wasted in a small area.
-This also encourages aliens to set up clever ambushes or even decoy battles if they want a certain area boosted. It gives strategy to the marine side too, who then have to worry about where they attack from, and if they will set off a chain reaction. It encourages them to be attentive for where the infestation leads, and to sever essential links as they approach.
As with the previous musings threads, I enjoy reading everyone's feedback. Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
There are some really nice ideas in there, and there are some concerns that it brings up for me.
The concerns largely center around how I already feel about infestation. Right now it is an absolute chore for the marines to destroy the infestation. It just doesn't go down easily, and I did not see any advantage to using a flamethrower at all. I had a lot of trouble hitting the "sweet spot" to burn it, and even then, it burned very slowly. Much faster to pop cysts.
I can compare it to resource tower killing. Killing one RT is fine, and often it will not be rebuilt seconds later. You get a sense of accomplishment knowing you damaged the enemy economy, and they have to spend time rebuilding. Compare that to a marine trying to sever a network. I've walk down a hallway, killing cysts as I go, but more often than not, I would turn around and see that the alien commander has plopped all new ones down behind me.
Not only can it make a player feel like they wasted their time, but they get no feedback that they were doing something useful.
Personally, I think the flamethrower needs to suck as a weapon, but be dedicated to clearing infestation. And it needs to do its one job well.
That being said, the idea of interlocking vines is really cool, as is having a "network advantage." The issue is that this will entice Alien commanders to spam cysts more often. This is not cool unless the destroying cysts vs rebuilding cysts is looked over. I have every confidence that UWE will fix this (or that marine teams will work together better) and that the issue will eventually be solved, but please do not forget it.
I love the idea that the aliens get a bonus from players dying on infestation. <b>The concept that aliens WANT controlled intruders is really cool</b>, especially if dead aliens help as much as a dead marine. It would add a sense of danger when trying to ninja, and would provide satisfaction of marines destroying infestation, because they're clearing a huge hazard.
A thread on gorges suggested making the voluptuous little guys true "masters of infestation." I think it would be awesome to see gorges specialize in dealing with marines ON the infestation, while other aliens are evolved with the goals of taking the fight to the marines OFF the infestation. Not that there isn't some room for cross-over, but another solid role for the gorge combined with carnivorous infestation would be fun.
-Maybe the gorge could suck some sort of special fluid out of the infested ground (or out of an absorbed body) to add a special one-shot property to his next bilebomb. It would take a little time, but rewards the gorge for playing in his intended areas.
-If the gorge finds recently-deceased bodies off the infestation, he can either suck the fluid for his attack, or plant a special Corpse Cyst that beams a mini-bonus back to the main infestation.
Going back to infestation boosts from dead players and networking - what if the cyst nearest the death got a growth increase (or healed, or got a "level up" per the video), and that bonus is also shared with the cysts linked to that original one? Not only would networks be encouraged, but placement strategy would be required so that a kill in one location will affect the most cysts and the widest area possible. (like using a clever vent route to boost a room further away than the marines expect)
-By limiting the bonus to ONLY the directly linked cysts in the web (or perhaps to the second degree), it reduces the alien commander's desire to spam. Because the vines/links are automatically made by the game, care has to be taken so that the bonus isn't wasted in a small area.
-This also encourages aliens to set up clever ambushes or even decoy battles if they want a certain area boosted. It gives strategy to the marine side too, who then have to worry about where they attack from, and if they will set off a chain reaction. It encourages them to be attentive for where the infestation leads, and to sever essential links as they approach.
As with the previous musings threads, I enjoy reading everyone's feedback. Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
Comments
I would suggest reducing the health of newly spawned Cysts (eg 100/1000 HP). A Cyst's health would regenerate over time as it grows, and a Gorge could help it "mature" by healing it.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113562&view=findpost&p=1886096" target="_blank">HERE</a>
I think twilite's idea of new cysts being weak and slowly getting stronger (accelerated by a gorge heal) is a nice addition. If the health of the cyst was also tied to the spread of DI, this would allow early gorges to help push out DI faster in conjunction with the khamm.
Deadzone - the idea of effects on DI only transmitting to directly linked or 2nd order is also very cool. It makes the design of the DI/cyst network determine the effectiveness of a khamm's 'spells' and other DI transmitted bonuses. There is a trade-off between robustness vs larger area of effect of bonuses. It fits pretty well with my thoughts on having the higher levels of cysts have a higher number of vines. So having a level 3 cyst connected to 5-6 level 1 cysts would allow bonuses/spells to effect a larger area. Higher level cysts would diminish the trade-off between area of effect and robustness (allowing greater resiliency and better area of effect). It would also make them a prime target to marines.
The core concept that seems to be developing around these new cyst-network prototypes is the 'network effect'. Either through transmission across the network or through fault-tolerance.
This makes me think, maybe there should be 2-3 types of cyst upgrades. There could be a DC-type upgrade (tougher cysts/better healing effects?), a MC-type upgrade (more connections per cyst/better transmission of bonuses to 2nd order/shift canals?), and SC-type upgrades (better hive-sight/cloaking/not too sure about this one).
This would allow khamms to have lots of choices in the tech-tree as well as when building out DI and the cyst network.
OK, I hope my ramblings aren't too silly.
Yeah, we're thinking along the same lines about the higher level cyst being able to spread a buff better since it can touch more nodes directly.
I think the main thing about any gameplay added to the cysts themselves, though, is that we have to remember cysts are a small part of a larger game. It would be bad to put tons and tons of feature creep at the cyst level and make a complex game within a game.
"khaam", nice touch :D
I agree I maybe got carried away with the cyst upgrade-types idea. The transmission of other structure effects through cysts would accomplish something similar without so much added complexity.
I can't decide between 'khamm' and 'khaam'. Been trying to get some variation to catch on for the last month or so =P
Perhaps different 'constellations' (patterns) of cysts could actually change how an infested area behaves?
So one area could be more defensive and give access to certain powers? Or one could be more offensive?
I love the idea of upgrading. If you are dropping Cysts near to Marine start, currently it is really hard to keep them up.
So creating 'stronger' cysts on the front lines is interesting.
I think there are some awesome possiblities with the hive as well.
So, to move the hive:
You create a connection with another techpoint, click on the techpoint and then click 'relocate'. You then see the hive 'pumping' through the network.
To attack with the hive:
Or perhaps some sort of hive attack (that leaves the hive vulnarable for a limited time, for comebacks) where by clicking on a hive and then a Cyst attack button, you can then click on a Cyst near or in Marine spawn.
Then it pumps infestation down the networks and starts spraying it everywhere out of the end cyst to strengthen the front line and to damage the Marine start.
Maybe something along these lines:
A dropped cyst has x health. It has a maximum health of y (significantly higher than x). Cysts are connected to one or more other cysts and the regenerate rate of the cyst health depends on the number of connections it has. Thus a long cyst chain isn't only easily cut, but its cysts also don't grow stronger as fast as well connected cysts. The cyst model's size depends on its level of maturity: if it's old (and thus has lots of health), it's a huge lump of organic material, if it's just dropped, it's small and is easily killed. Maybe gorges can help the cysts grow by healing them. Or maybe not, spending too much time healing static buildings isn't fun. Mini cysts are just like any other cysts (no need for several, slightly different objects with the exact same purpose) but start with even less health).
There should be something to stop alien comms from spamming cysts, though. The most simple solution is adjusting the prices of cysts, of course. Or maybe flamers could be more effective against infestation networks than simple lines? I don't know how to implement this, though. Maybe the flames could spread to nearby cysts, but not ones far away. It wouldn't be too intuitive or obvious to the players so maybe not...
I love the idea of aliens benefiting from dead bodies on infestation. Maybe it could boost the regenerate rate of nearby cysts?
But it should have some kind of out of combat mechanic...
Make a hidden debuff on aliens, whenever they get dmg it takes 10-15s until the heal on infestation is back to 100% per tick. (0 heal for the first 3s increasing until 100% heal/tick after 15s)
Gives flamethrowers another plus, because the dot will refresh the debuff until you stop burning, and you dont get godmode skulks on infestation with a little dodging and a gorge.
Problem: You need gorges around to counter the flamethrower dot if crags and hive doesnt heal anymore, or you could just make the ft dots shorter duration and increase the direct dmg a tiny bit.
PS:
100% heal / tick means, something like 10% of the maxlifeform hp or some fixed amount per tick(like 100hp every 3seconds), and not that the lifeform is back to 100% health in 15seconds.
E.g Tickrate: every 3 seconds. Healing amount 100hp. 15s until back to 100% Heal/tick.
Out of combat - debuff runs out, healing starts again:
3s 1 tick = 0 Heal
6s 2 Tick = 25 Heal
9s 3 Tick = 50 Heal
12s 4 Tick = 75 Heal
15s 5 Tick = 100 Heal (back to 100% Heal/ Tick )
18s 6 Tick = 100 Heal
etc.
So if you have infestation without any crag placed on it it won't heal the aliens, but if you place a crag at any point on the infestation the aliens will get healed everywhere on that network of infestation. Though one crag will only enable the infestation to heal 50 hp per second total divided up between all aliens currently on the infestation. So if there are five aliens on that network of infestation each will only receive ten hp per second, which is not much; so as the commander you would have to place several crags throughout the infestation network (with an upper limit maybe).
It's proposed to remove the Crag (in it's current form)
It's proposed to make the Cyst network upgradable/reinforcable
How about:
Cysts provide basic healing ability (health, minor armor)
Cysts can be upgraded into Crag-cysts (health and armor, reinforced link)
Note: Crag-cysts don't heal other cysts/crag-cysts and stacking does not increase recovery rate on aliens
Note: Crag-cysts have increased armor and health over regular cysts, ie. reinforcing the chain as proposed