The Gorge - No longer needed

Yuuki

<!--quoteo(post=1885472:date=Nov 18 2011, 05:12 PM:name=mezimors)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mezimors @ Nov 18 2011, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..
Considering that gorges are no longer essential they see much less play time - esp. considering that if they are a skilled player their resources are FAR better spent as a fade. What needs to be done is make the gorge a worthwhile investment on the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you're wrong on this point, gorges are worthwhile investment, if you already have three fades (or even two) you should get a gorge instead of an additional fade, just because it shorten healing times a lot. The problem is more than just healing might be a bit boring.
Anyway I think there is no way around it, you can give gorges cool abilities and stuff but it will not be the same than being the builder (dropping the hive, ...).

Chris0132

It might, however, make them rather better than 'the class that can't do anything for most of the game waiting for 80 res to drop the hive'.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885510:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:47 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might, however, make them rather better than 'the class that can't do anything for most of the game waiting for 80 res to drop the hive'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume this is a reference to how the Gorge worked in NS1, but it's all wrong. The Gorge was very powerful and useful in NS1 -- actually more so than it is in the current NS2, even when you disregard hive drops. Having a good permgorge was a big asset to any team.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1885513:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:07 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2011, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I assume this is a reference to how the Gorge worked in NS1, but it's all wrong. The Gorge was very powerful and useful in NS1 -- actually more so than it is in the current NS2, even when you disregard hive drops. Having a good permgorge was a big asset to any team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The gorge in NS1 was neccesary, because without it you couldn't win the game, because it was the only way for aliens to expand beyond their starting hive.

Powerful, however? No. It provided a number of useful support functions, healing, webs, and bile bomb, but everything beyond that was providing required functions for the team, functions which are now in the hands of the alien commander.

What the gorge needs is not to get the alien commander's stuff back, but to be given new things which it can do instead. Adding webs back in would be a good start, from there you can add some more non-essential structures that are useful to players on the frontline, as well as other ways to project their existing capacities.

If gorges could spit webs, spit bile bombs loaded with healing or umbra clouds instead of damage, and possibly build health/energy recharge buildings, it'd be very useful in a forward support role, while leaving the overall strategic management to the commander, who can do it much better than several gorges all vying for resources and control. It already does a lot of useful things, it mostly just needs more ways to do them without getting killed. You may have noticed that marines tend to shoot at gorges quite a lot, as they are a major threat when working with a group.

Saying that the gorge was powerful in NS1 is like saying that infantry portals are powerful.

You need some of them, but it isn't really accurate to call them 'powerful', fades are powerful, HA/HMG combos are powerful, gorges were required to progress.

RisingSun

Here's a thought. Why not make the gorge a mobile commander.

Screw jumping into a hive, just have the gorge hunker down and throw up his gorgey shield when he wants to jump into commander mode. The gorge uses the hive mind to help start buildings and he/she could complete them. The gorge could be on the front lines getting a good view or bunker up in some vent somewhere to comm the game. It would give the teams back its unique feel and make for very tense moments. It would also give the alien comm something to DO while waiting for upgrades and res, not like we have med packs or ammo packs to drop.

Only draw back is 1 gorge per hive, but who needs more than one gorge in the beginning? Also the Gorge lifeform would have to be free, but since there is only one per hive, not a problem.

Kinda off the top of my head as i was reading other posts. What do you all think? It needs work and polish but i think it would be quite fun and DIFFERENT!

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1885515:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:25 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 18 2011, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's a thought. Why not make the gorge a mobile commander.

Screw jumping into a hive, just have the gorge hunker down and throw up his gorgey shield when he wants to jump into commander mode. The gorge uses the hive mind to help start buildings and he/she could complete them. The gorge could be on the front lines getting a good view or bunker up in some vent somewhere to comm the game. It would give the teams back its unique feel and make for very tense moments.

Only draw back is 1 gorge per hive, but who needs more than one gorge in the beginning? Also the Gorge lifeform would have to be free, but since there is only one per hive, not a problem.

Kinda off the top of my head as i was reading other posts. What do you all think? It needs work and polish but i think it would be quite fun and DIFFERENT!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Why would the ability to view the battle from the point of view of a very vulnerable and highly targettable alien be a worthwhile function?

The commander can see the battle better than most players can, because he can see through/around obstacles. The only reason he doesn't neccessarily know what's going on in any given situation is because he isn't watching it at the moment, because he is doing commander stuff.

Thus, playing as a gorge commander would either mean you play exactly as you do as a hive commander, or you neglect your command duties to get a differe,t but generally worse view of the area you happen to be in.

It's difficult to see why this would be helpful.

mezimors

<!--quoteo(post=1884916:date=Nov 14 2011, 12:44 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Nov 14 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris you are the greatest troll ever. Thanks for making me laugh :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'bout sums it up, again. Not sure if you're playing or if I should respond seriously with a grievous face because you are serious. I'll hope for the former ;)

Rising sun however, that sounds a lot more like what would be a good compromise between the two roles that are both lacking....

RisingSun

<!--quoteo(post=1885516:date=Nov 18 2011, 06:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would the ability to view the battle from the point of view of a very vulnerable and highly targettable alien be a worthwhile function?

The commander can see the battle better than most players can, because he can see through/around obstacles. The only reason he doesn't neccessarily know what's going on in any given situation is because he isn't watching it at the moment, because he is doing commander stuff.

Thus, playing as a gorge commander would either mean you play exactly as you do as a hive commander, or you neglect your command duties to get a differe,t but generally worse view of the area you happen to be in.

It's difficult to see why this would be helpful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Alien comm and gorge by themselves are great. Both is a waste. Something needs to be done. Aliens had no comm in NS1 and did fine. Gorges who stuck their neck out too much got popped. They would be a little more valued but not much. Plus they can go into their "Shell" commands mode if things get too rough.

If they die? So what. Spawn and regorge. It gives the comm and new flavor. Alien comm, as i said, isnt that fun. You build and upgrade. You see what your aliens see (which they can report just as easily.)

Alien comm does not have a Beacon, Scan, Med Packs, Ammo packs, Faster shot/walk pack (cant remember atm), or any reason to drop any sort of tech (guns, JP, HA). So why not have the gorge be the non comm view. Go comm mode for coordination, upgrades, and buildings. While not doing that get out there in the trenches.

*edit- Thank you for seeing what i am getting at Mez

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1885522:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:39 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 18 2011, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien comm and gorge by themselves are great. Both is a waste. Something needs to be done. Aliens had no comm in NS1 and did fine. Gorges who stuck their neck out too much got popped. They would be a little more valued but not much. Plus they can go into their "Shell" commands mode if things get too rough.

If they die? So what. Spawn and regorge. It gives the comm and new flavor. Alien comm, as i said, isnt that fun. You build and upgrade. You see what your aliens see (which they can report just as easily.)

Alien comm does not have a Beacon, Scan, Med Packs, Ammo packs, Faster shot/walk pack (cant remember atm), or any reason to drop any sort of tech (guns, JP, HA). So why not have the gorge be the non comm view. Go comm mode for coordination, upgrades, and buildings. While not doing that get out there in the trenches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If they die you are without a comm for however long it takes to respawn and regorge.

While in gorge view you also sacrifice the main point of the alien comm, which is the ability to see any area of the map at a moment's notice.

What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit.

No amount of armor is going to make the gorge commander practical, what do you do if you start getting shot? You can't run because the marine is shooting you, leave the armored form and you'll die instantly. You can't fight back because you have no weapons, the best you can do is hide in a vent somewhere, in which case why aren't you just inside the hive as a fade or something? That's way more useful as you can actually do hive defence if you need to.

And all of this entirely ignores the fact that you aren't making the gorge more useful, you're making it so that only one player can play gorge at any given time, you are effectively removing the class from the game, that is not a solution.

mezimors

Not to mention it would help one of the things I love about NS1... which is the two teams being completely different, and not having the silly artificial 'uniqueness' that most games have.

/rant
(E.G. Look, the marine commander can only drop structures on a power grid, however, the aliens can only morph on the infestation! or, in another post I was reading, the good ole "well the marines have an aoe structure attack with the arc, and the gorges have an aoe structure with bile bomb, and the marines have a grenade for aoe unit damage, so we should make the whip damage aoe for units!" I hate that. No, just because the marines have a capability does not mean that the aliens require a copy of it.

Edit:
"What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit."

Actually Chris has a point here. Maybe I've just been lagging out, but thus far I havent really been able to utilize the alien command features - thus rendering my command as an alien as effectively just wasting space in the belly of the hive..... dot dot dot.

RisingSun

<!--quoteo(post=1885526:date=Nov 18 2011, 06:44 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they die you are without a comm for however long it takes to respawn and regorge.

While in gorge view you also sacrifice the main point of the alien comm, which is the ability to see any area of the map at a moment's notice.

What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit.

No amount of armor is going to make the gorge commander practical, what do you do if you start getting shot? You can't run because the marine is shooting you, leave the armored form and you'll die instantly. You can't fight back because you have no weapons, the best you can do is hide in a vent somewhere, in which case why aren't you just inside the hive as a fade or something? That's way more useful as you can actually do hive defence if you need to.

And all of this entirely ignores the fact that you aren't making the gorge more useful, you're making it so that only one player can play gorge at any given time, you are effectively removing the class from the game, that is not a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You arent reading my post. Let me knock out the simple ones first.

"And all of this entirely ignores the fact that you aren't making the gorge more useful, you're making it so that only one player can play gorge at any given time, you are effectively removing the class from the game, that is not a solution."

1 gorge per hive as there is one comm per hive. Early game you dont need more than 1 gorge.

"No amount of armor is going to make the gorge commander practical, what do you do if you start getting shot? You can't run because the marine is shooting you, leave the armored form and you'll die instantly. You can't fight back because you have no weapons, the best you can do is hide in a vent somewhere, in which case why aren't you just inside the hive as a fade or something? That's way more useful as you can actually do hive defence if you need to."

If the gorge when in "shell" mode has the equivalent armor of a comm chair he will have the back up he needs. All the other things you say can happen to a marine comm. I dont see you complaining about that :P

"What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit."

A different point of view is just that... DIFFERENT. We can have our alien comm but with a twist. As a hive mind everyone should have an input on where things go and such but since that would be game breaking the Gorge is the best candidate. As an Alien comm i have always found it boring. The infestation spreading would be even easier if it was the gorges job to regurgitate it on the ground instead of having the comm mode do it. It would be a blending of abilities and some would go back to the gorge instead of comm view. Whips and Hydras could be combined and maybe even allowed to be set in a follow mode for the gorge. WHo knows. Once you accept the idea of the Gorge comm things can be imagined to balance it.

"While in gorge view you also sacrifice the main point of the alien comm, which is the ability to see any area of the map at a moment's notice."

Who cares? Aliens have med packs? they need ammo? oh wait, you might have beacon at a moments notice... Wait a minute... that is Marine side. Most of the Alien comm's abilities is passive and need little to no maintenance.

The more i think on it the more i like this idea. It gives the comm to the aliens like UWE wants but adds an alien flavor that can be followed up by lore. Having a random alien jumping in and out of a hive is ridiculous when you think about it. The gorge could be the extension of the hive mind.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885514:date=Nov 18 2011, 08:14 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge in NS1 was neccesary, because without it you couldn't win the game, because it was the only way for aliens to expand beyond their starting hive.

Powerful, however? No. It provided a number of useful support functions, healing, webs, and bile bomb, but everything beyond that was providing required functions for the team, functions which are now in the hands of the alien commander.

What the gorge needs is not to get the alien commander's stuff back, but to be given new things which it can do instead. Adding webs back in would be a good start, from there you can add some more non-essential structures that are useful to players on the frontline, as well as other ways to project their existing capacities.

If gorges could spit webs, spit bile bombs loaded with healing or umbra clouds instead of damage, and possibly build health/energy recharge buildings, it'd be very useful in a forward support role, while leaving the overall strategic management to the commander, who can do it much better than several gorges all vying for resources and control. It already does a lot of useful things, it mostly just needs more ways to do them without getting killed. You may have noticed that marines tend to shoot at gorges quite a lot, as they are a major threat when working with a group.

Saying that the gorge was powerful in NS1 is like saying that infantry portals are powerful.

You need some of them, but it isn't really accurate to call them 'powerful', fades are powerful, HA/HMG combos are powerful, gorges were required to progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your definition of something being powerful as only being something that directly deals damage is ridiculous and wrong. Support functions can be just as powerful as direct offensive functions. Comparing it to the infantry portal is possibly the most confused analogy I've ever seen. Fact is, as I have already stated, having a good perm gorge (perm gorges shouldn't drop hives) was a big asset to any team.

Webs were terrible for gameplay and shouldn't be reintroduced in NS2. Removing control from the player is only ever frustrating for the player, even though it may be fun for the player doing the removing in a trolling sort of way. The only reason it could be tolerated in NS1 was because it was locked to the third hive and as a consequence was very rarely used because most games ended before they got to that stage. The few times games progressed that far, it served a purpose as a "game ender" together with the other third hive bonuses and abilities.

I'm all for adding new abilities to the gorge, but they shouldn't be things the gorge can do while out of harms way. Playing gorge shouldn't require any less skill than other classes, it should just require different skills. The problem right now, and to a large degree with bad players in NS1, wasn't that it's a weak lifeform, it's that a lot of people don't understand how to use it properly. Surviving as a gorge, while still being useful to the team in combat, isn't actually that difficult.

I don't have the time (or frankly the interest, arguing with people who obviously don't know anything about the subject they're debating is too frustrating) to elaborate much on why the gorge was powerful in NS1, but here are a few points: Heal spray could be used in many ways (either to boost teammates or delay marines), soaking bullets (either by deliberately blocking them or by acting as a decoy), spitting (actually very powerful in certain situations, but used incorrectly by most players. I wouldn't mind seeing an even stronger spit in NS2 though.), tactical placement of DCs, MCs or SCs around the map (too many different uses to list here), tactical placement of OCs (to delay, distract and weaken marines)... and the list goes on. and on.

Chris0132

Having <b>A</b> good perm gorge was useful to the team, having <b>many</b> of them is a detriment, which is why I compare it to infantry portals.

'Powerful' is not automatically something which does damage, resource towers are powerful, as you can never have enough of them, that's what makes something powerful as opposed to required, although resource towers are required also.

The point about HA/HMG is that you don't NEED them, you can play without them, but they are very useful to have, and don't get any less useful the more you have, they are a universally useful commodity, but not one which is artificially made useful by being the only way to perform a given task. HA/HMG soldiers soak damage and deal damage, there are other ways to do that, but HA/HMG is a very good way to do it, so it's powerful.

Contrast that with something like the IP, it's the only way to spawn. There isn't an alternative way to do it, so IPs are required, they aren't powerful however, as once you get past the 'required' stage they rapidly lose effectiveness, once you have enough for everyone to spawn and for redundancy, there's no point building more.

Hence the comparison with the NS1 gorge. Gorges were useful as long as you needed things built. A lot of the time one gorge could build most of the things requied, you NEED at least one gorge all the time because there is always room for one gorge to be building essential structures, but once you get past the essential structures part, gorges very quickly become drains on the team resources. You would be much better served putting that player in a combat role, because the combat roles are all quite useful, they all provide good ways to take and absorb damage, and you can never have enough of that.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885530:date=Nov 18 2011, 08:48 PM:name=mezimors)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mezimors @ Nov 18 2011, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit:
"What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit."

Actually Chris has a point here. Maybe I've just been lagging out, but thus far I havent really been able to utilize the alien command features - thus rendering my command as an alien as effectively just wasting space in the belly of the hive..... dot dot dot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he doesn't. Any commander with a reasonable APM and multitasking ability will find the alien commander more or less void of things to do for most of the game. Yes, you can always find some random buttons to click, but as far as actually having an impact on the game? No.

As for the specific points: Coordinating aliens and scouting can be done just as well or even better as a field player, provided you have a microphone. Spreading infestation, dropping buildings, getting upgrades, takes very little effort and while you're waiting for res/energy it's better to be in the field. Moving whips, triggering structures, and most of the other proposed functionality for the alien comm is largely illusory in concept and at the moment 99% useless.

It's certainly possible to give the commander things to do, but nothing has really been proposed so far that does just that in a meaningful way. And then you have to ask: why? If it's simply for the sake of making the two sides easier to understand for new players, which really does seem to be the case, somebody's really dropped the ball.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885536:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:11 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the comparison with the NS1 gorge. Gorges were useful as long as you needed things built. A lot of the time one gorge could build most of the things requied, you NEED at least one gorge all the time because there is always room for one gorge to be building essential structures, but once you get past the essential structures part, gorges very quickly become drains on the team resources. You would be much better served putting that player in a combat role, because the combat roles are all quite useful, they all provide good ways to take and absorb damage, and you can never have enough of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are wrong. I could write a long post explaining why, but it should be enough to point out that the best competitive teams in the world regularly used perm gorges (I guess I should also point out that said gorges spent maybe 10% of the game building things -- other players would go gorge for short periods of time to build most of the buildings, most importantly the hive).

Edit: Either you haven't played the game since 1.04 or you just don't know what you're talking about.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1885532:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:58 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 18 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You arent reading my post. Let me knock out the simple ones first.

"And all of this entirely ignores the fact that you aren't making the gorge more useful, you're making it so that only one player can play gorge at any given time, you are effectively removing the class from the game, that is not a solution."

1 gorge per hive as there is one comm per hive. Early game you dont need more than 1 gorge.

"No amount of armor is going to make the gorge commander practical, what do you do if you start getting shot? You can't run because the marine is shooting you, leave the armored form and you'll die instantly. You can't fight back because you have no weapons, the best you can do is hide in a vent somewhere, in which case why aren't you just inside the hive as a fade or something? That's way more useful as you can actually do hive defence if you need to."

If the gorge when in "shell" mode has the equivalent armor of a comm chair he will have the back up he needs. All the other things you say can happen to a marine comm. I dont see you complaining about that :P

"What is the point of gorge view other than just to be different? It is less useful than the commander view, why would you ever use it? You should be watching out for threats, coordinating aliens, dropping pheromone clouds to give your players more information, spreading infestation, dropping new buildings, triggering structures, moving whips around, if you are ever in need of something to do, you're not playing alien commander properly. There is always something you can be doing, and that's only on a smallish map like summit."

A different point of view is just that... DIFFERENT. We can have our alien comm but with a twist. As a hive mind everyone should have an input on where things go and such but since that would be game breaking the Gorge is the best candidate. As an Alien comm i have always found it boring. The infestation spreading would be even easier if it was the gorges job to regurgitate it on the ground instead of having the comm mode do it. It would be a blending of abilities and some would go back to the gorge instead of comm view. Whips and Hydras could be combined and maybe even allowed to be set in a follow mode for the gorge. WHo knows. Once you accept the idea of the Gorge comm things can be imagined to balance it.

"While in gorge view you also sacrifice the main point of the alien comm, which is the ability to see any area of the map at a moment's notice."

Who cares? Aliens have med packs? they need ammo? oh wait, you might have beacon at a moments notice... Wait a minute... that is Marine side. Most of the Alien comm's abilities is passive and need little to no maintenance.

The more i think on it the more i like this idea. It gives the comm to the aliens like UWE wants but adds an alien flavor that can be followed up by lore. Having a random alien jumping in and out of a hive is ridiculous when you think about it. The gorge could be the extension of the hive mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They're dropping multiple commanders because they don't work, while I like the idea, even I have to admit that more than one active commander is annoying, not beneficial in any way. So it would be one gorge at a time.

Are you seriously suggesting that gorges should be able to deploy into something as tough as a CC wherever he feels like it? You must be able to see how incredibly stupid that would seem to marines, not to mention how incredibly exploitable it would be as gorges could play all kinds of hell with turrets by just deploying in front of them and rendering them useless, or deploying on top of a ladder making it impossible for marines to climb it, or any of the other things you can imagine coming up if you gave aliens the ability to drop what approaches an immovable object on the map wherever they wanted it.

Are you familiar with the oft cited batman arkham asylum detective vision problem? In that game, you can access a special vision mode whenever you want, with no real penalties, it makes everything easier to see, and offers no drawbacks beyond the game looking worse. A lot of people play the game entirely in that vision mode, why would you turn it off when it gives you a universal advantage? The same is often said of alien vision, and that does actually have disadvantages.

If the only reason to change to gorge view is because you feel like a change of scenery, how many people do you imagine will actually use it? Or do you think most of them will sit in a vent using comm view all the time, because this is a competitive multiplayer game and every advantage will be taken.
<!--quoteo(post=1885539:date=Nov 18 2011, 08:18 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2011, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, you are wrong. I could write a long post explaining why, but it should be enough to point out that the best competitive teams in the world regularly used perm gorges (I guess I should also point out that said gorges spent maybe 10% of the game building things -- other players would go gorge for short periods of time to build most of the buildings, most importantly the hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And how many competitive teams in NS2 do you suppose completely ignore the healing ability of the gorge? And don't bother to field at least one? They heal much faster than crags do, a gorge and a couple of crags gets fades back into the fight much faster than anything else.

In NS1 even if you weren't building you still had to be a gorge because you couldn't save res for buildings if you kept changing classes, you did other stuff because you had nothing better to do between building, but building was always your primary function. Supporting an attack? First thing you do is drop 40-50 res in def and offence chambers in a room near the attack so the fades have somewhere to retreat to, then go and heal/bilebomb with the attack party, because you're out of money. It's not likely to be massively useful with the fades flying around and the onoses stomping everything, but the buildings are certainly going to help, because they are essential functions.

Gorges just didn't do anything in NS1 that they don't do now apart from building vital structures, all of their power comes from the fact that they were the only way to get vital structures, it has nothing to do with their combat effectiveness.

RisingSun

<!--quoteo(post=1885540:date=Nov 18 2011, 07:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're dropping multiple commanders because they don't work, while I like the idea, even I have to admit that more than one active commander is annoying, not beneficial in any way. So it would be one gorge at a time.

Are you seriously suggesting that gorges should be able to deploy into something as tough as a CC wherever he feels like it? You must be able to see how incredibly stupid that would seem to marines, not to mention how incredibly exploitable it would be as gorges could play all kinds of hell with turrets by just deploying in front of them and rendering them useless, or deploying on top of a ladder making it impossible for marines to climb it, or any of the other things you can imagine coming up if you gave aliens the ability to drop what approaches an immovable object on the map wherever they wanted it.

Are you familiar with the oft cited batman arkham asylum detective vision problem? In that game, you can access a special vision mode whenever you want, with no real penalties, it makes everything easier to see, and offers no drawbacks beyond the game looking worse. A lot of people play the game entirely in that vision mode, why would you turn it off when it gives you a universal advantage? The same is often said of alien vision, and that does actually have disadvantages.

If the only reason to change to gorge view is because you feel like a change of scenery, how many people do you imagine will actually use it? Or do you think most of them will sit in a vent using comm view all the time, because this is a competitive multiplayer game and every advantage will be taken.


And how many competitive teams in NS2 do you suppose completely ignore the healing ability of the gorge? And don't bother to field at least one? They heal much faster than crags do, a gorge and a couple of crags gets fades back into the fight much faster than anything else.

In NS1 even if you weren't building you still had to be a gorge because you couldn't save res for buildings if you kept changing classes, you did other stuff because you had nothing better to do between building, but building was always your primary function. Supporting an attack? First thing you do is drop 40-50 res in def and offence chambers in a room near the attack so the fades have somewhere to retreat to, then go and heal/bilebomb with the attack party, because you're out of money. It's not likely to be massively useful with the fades flying around and the onoses stomping everything, but the buildings are certainly going to help, because they are essential functions.

Gorges just didn't do anything in NS1 that they don't do now apart from building vital structures, all of their power comes from the fact that they were the only way to get vital structures, it has nothing to do with their combat effectiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Didnt know about dropping multiple comms. Though things could be worked with my idea. Marines it is a waste of a player.

and yes gorges could use this ability when they wished. Maybe make it Infestation only. In NS 1 you could drop the Comm chair wherever and blocks those poor onos in tight hallways. Things will always be abused. It doesnt make my idea bad, just rough. I said it needed polish.

I have started a independent thread the flush out ideas. Feel free to skip posting there unless you have ideas to make it work Negative Nancy.

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115433" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115433</a>

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885540:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how many competitive teams in NS2 do you suppose completely ignore the healing ability of the gorge? And don't bother to field at least one? They heal much faster than crags do, a gorge and a couple of crags gets fades back into the fight much faster than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what you're trying to say here? Most NS2 teams use a gorge to support skulks/lerks/fades with healing in and out of combat, to soak bullets and to drop hydras to delay, weaken and distract the marines (typically inside the second hive room, while it is building). If anything, it's a testament to how useful the gorge is -- it's just a shame because they were even more useful in NS1 and the addition of a commander to take over some of their tasks hasn't been an improvement in any way so far.

Edit: Building forward crag farms to heal fades isn't cost effective and not used in competitive games between teams who know what they're doing. The only time they'd have any use is to end end-of-game stalemates, but that rarely happens in comp games because most teams prefer not to uselessly drag out the game time (unlike most pub comms unfortunately).

<!--quoteo(post=1885540:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 even if you weren't building you still had to be a gorge because you couldn't save res for buildings if you kept changing classes, you did other stuff because you had nothing better to do between building, but building was always your primary function. Supporting an attack? First thing you do is drop 40-50 res in def and offence chambers in a room near the attack so the fades have somewhere to retreat to, then go and heal/bilebomb with the attack party, because you're out of money. It's not likely to be massively useful with the fades flying around and the onoses stomping everything, but the buildings are certainly going to help, because they are essential functions.

Gorges just didn't do anything in NS1 that they don't do now apart from building vital structures, all of their power comes from the fact that they were the only way to get vital structures, it has nothing to do with their combat effectiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much everything in this entire quote is wrong. It's so patently obvious that you don't know ANYTHING about the subject you're discussing that I really have to wonder why you're writing these things. Can't save res without staying gorge? Dropping 40-50 res in DCs and OCs? Not being useful "with the fades flying around"? Is this a joke?

Chris0132

Comm chair/tower walling in NS was not a fun part of the game, I assume it's a major reason for moving CCs to tech points. I'm not in a hurry to see it put back in.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1885547:date=Nov 18 2011, 08:41 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2011, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much everything in this entire quote is wrong. It's so patently obvious that you don't know ANYTHING about the subject you're discussing that I really have to wonder why you're writing these things. Can't save res without staying gorge? Dropping 40-50 res in DCs and OCs? Not being useful "with the fades flying around"? Is this a joke?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you are saving res for structures, you can't do that if you're spending most of it evolving to other classes. Either you spend money on classes, or you spend it as a gorge, you don't generally have enough res to spend it on both, at least not in the games I played.

You can't chase fades and skulks around the room healing them as a gorge in NS1, so healing is kind of out of the question in an attack, if you want to heal you're generally better off doing it from the safety of a little DC/OC fort nearby, not least because the DCs boost your healing considerably.

If you're attacking as a gorge, and you have money to spare, and aren't planning on spending it on anything else (I'm assuming this is a late game attack here) then dropping some healing/deterrant/cloaking chambers near the fight is a good way to support your teammates, fades tend to fly in, kill something, and fly out again, giving them somewhere to heal is a good idea. And onoses like to run off with a marine in their bellies, the cloaking and extra healing gets them back in the fight a bit faster.

I did admittedly play NS a lot more in early versions rather than the 3.X versions, but it didn't change that much surely?

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1885551:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are saving res for structures, you can't do that if you're spending most of it evolving to other classes. Either you spend money on classes, or you spend it as a gorge, you don't generally have enough res to spend it on both, at least not in the games I played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a six player game, you generally only want three players to spend res on lifeforms, until after the second hive is up, when most of the time the game has already been decided. The distributions change for higher player counts, but to play effectively you need several players to save res while playing as a skulk. Good lerks and fades die very rarely and will often reach 100res (supplying overflow for the rest of the team) if the game goes on for long enough. Onoses are barely worth talking about, they're rarely used even on pubs as the fade is a much more effective lifeform in 99% of gameplay situations.

<!--quoteo(post=1885551:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't chase fades and skulks around the room healing them as a gorge in NS1, so healing is kind of out of the question in an attack, if you want to heal you're generally better off doing it from the safety of a little DC/OC fort nearby, not least because the DCs boost your healing considerably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OC/DC forts are a waste of res and only seen on pubs with an abundance of bad players who don't know any better. Supporting other players in combat as a gorge can be extremely powerful if the gorge and skulks/fades/lerks know what they're doing.

<!--quoteo(post=1885551:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're attacking as a gorge, and you have money to spare, and aren't planning on spending it on anything else (I'm assuming this is a late game attack here) then dropping some healing/deterrant/cloaking chambers near the fight is a good way to support your teammates, fades tend to fly in, kill something, and fly out again, giving them somewhere to heal is a good idea. And onoses like to run off with a marine in their bellies, the cloaking and extra healing gets them back in the fight a bit faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a game played between players who know what they're doing, you never have "money to spare". The most cost-effective team can get more essential hives, buildings, upgrades and lifeforms in a shorter amount of time and therefore gains an advantage. Dropping chamber farms near combat areas, unless it's to serve a specific purpose like delaying, weaking and distracting marines attacking a hive, is generally a waste of res and only done on publics filled with bad players who don't know any better.

What you want to do in terms of tactical placement of chambers, is drop solo MCs/DCs/SCs in inaccesible (for the marines) places where either their "aura" can reach aliens or structures, or in places where the mc's activated teleport ability is useful for fast transportation back to the hive.

<!--quoteo(post=1885551:date=Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 18 2011, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did admittedly play NS a lot more in early versions rather than the 3.X versions, but it didn't change that much surely?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The differences between 3.x and 1.x are bigger than the differences between NS2 and 3.x. That should give you an indication. The differences are huge and too many to list.

ubikjam

Just wanted to agree with the general idea that the Gorge needs more tools to play with, rather than undergoing a massive change in direction.

For me the Gorge should focus on Infestation related bonuses, lots of mini-cyst type buildings that alter the effects of the infestation in an area of effect, eg:

1. Make infestation in surrounding are cause small amounts of damage to Marines walking on it,
2. Make Infestation fire resistant,
3. Mine type traps that release acid/Lerk gas if Marines come near,
4. Infestation in the surrounding area produces a mist to obscure marine view (although i'd like this to work by default as planned),
5. Infestation in surrounding area carries additional movement penalty to Marines, ie. no jumping or sprinting (Again I think slower movement speed on infestation is already being considered by default, but I would like to stop those marines from hopping around),

Combined with webbing, these sorts of bonuses would help a group of skulks to defend an area/lay traps, but would never be enough to prevent marines from taking an empty area. Should also help to make marines more aware about infestation and give it the gameplay role it desperately wants to have.

Price

<!--quoteo(post=1881982:date=Oct 25 2011, 09:59 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 25 2011, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we still need the Gorge?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes but UWE degraded him to a medic instead of Cute-building-teamhelping-allrounder.

I love beeing a gorge in ns1, you get spitting, healing, building like defence, offensive or just like a sensory and hide with some offensive chambers.
also he got nice webs and such...
now he is a field medic and a easy target.
I don't like playing him much.

Electr0

Id like the gorge to get a grappling hook like a mod added in ns1, it was a lot more fun and made him more of a nuisance to the enemy team.

MuYeah

Hello. I disagree with your idea that the gorge should be removed. While under-developed at the moment, it offers some great opportunities to introduce diversity of gameplay to the alien team.

If the alien commander is going to stay in the game then the gorge needs to get some sweet new abilities not related to building (as has already been mentioned).

I like the distinction between lerk and gorge as Offensive and Defensive support and it seems to me the only direction to take the class is to strengthen its defensive abilities.

I'll state right now that I <b>deeply disagree with the suggestion of webs</b> on the grounds that they're either incredibly overpowered or completely useless, depending on whether the marines have a GL(/flamethrower?). That's the "gameplay" reason at least but the tediousness of being webbed is enough to make me want to smash my arms to bloody nubs on my keyboard like that famous gif that's floating around on the internet.


So, to waste my own time, the main problems with the gorge (I warn you I've not been able to play for a couple months so I'm completely behind on updates, but...):

<b><u>Movement technique</b></u>
Current implementation: Waddle and limited belly sliding.

The good: Slide is an active-use skill (very good, more on this next). Gives much needed escape mechanism. Potential increased out of combat travel speed and trade-off while in combat between time spent healing and re-positioning/dodging with slide (<b>Perfect opportunity to replicate gameplay effects of bunnyhop without inviting haters to hate</b>).

The bad: Current implementation hamstrung by real-world physics; Can't go uphill (situational), must go in a straight line (making gorge an easy target and ability useless in combat). Offers little/no(?) speed boost (pointless?). Runs the risk of becoming a boring sprint equivalent of just holding a button to go fast in a straight line.

Potential solution: <ul><li>Increase speed while sliding by 1.3 to 1.5 times base run-speed. </li><li>Allow slide to be used in any situation (up-hill, off gloop and so on). </li><li>Allow a limited amount turning with the mouse to adjust your "in-flight" direction of travel. </li><li>Belly slide will now only travel a fixed distance (I'd suggest a short length, ~3m or so at most) - Keeps the ability engaging, introduces dodging ability. </li><li> <b>Controversial:</b> Implement some sort of slide "chaining" speed bonus as something to do while travelling. For example, increase speed of next slide if you're standing on infestation when you execute it. This is doubly good because inexperienced gorges will be able to take advantage of the defensive speed bonus on home-turf to jet between a few areas with ease while the more advanced player could use it in enemy territory in combination with heal-spray's ability to spawn infestation.</li></ul>


<u><b>Lack of active abilities</b></u>
A good FPS class should have a baseline skill then some extra "active" abilities which are more situational in their use.

Current implementation: Baseline is healspray. Active abilities being hydras and spit which deals a low amount of damage and slows marines [does it even do this? it's hard to tell].

The good: Healspray - Very nice. Hydras - good defensive ability.

The bad: Hydra spam too good (but also annoying for marines), lone hydra too bad. Spit's debuff to marines needs to be more pronounced. Healspray can feel week as a tanking mechanic. It does feel like there is a lack of engaging abilities.

Potential solution:<ul><li>Implement <b>gorge shield</b> as promised in original reveal (90% damage reduction or something) - this ability should use energy on a per second basis, which could otherwise be used for healspray. Ability can act as a last line of defense or be used to buy time as the individual sees fit. "Is the gorge going to pop out of shield and spray or should I be watching the doorway for incoming skulks?" It's very similar to the trade-off marines make in NS1 when a lerk is harassing, you either get slapped by the lerk while watching for incoming aliens or waste all your bullets trying to hit the lerk only to get eaten by a skulk whilst you reload. Also has a nice trade-off with belly-slide in that a better gorge will be able to dodge using the energy-free slide and healspray more often than a gorge relying solely on shielding damage. </li><li> Allow each gorge only one hydra, allow hydras to benefit from team damage/armor upgrades, increase base health.</li><li><b>Controversial:</b> Hydras die after 60seconds if they do not receive a healspray or a sacrificial drifter.

The above 2 suggestions would also help make hydras a bit more involving, something extra to keep check on.
</li><li><b>New ability:</b> Some sort of shielding ability that lets the gorge prevent X damage to a friendly structure or player for ~10s. This could feasibly be implemented as an alt-fire to healspray by spraying slime-goo all over it to form a protective coating. To prevent it becoming an overpowered instant +X health buff (and therefore saving lifeforms which otherwise ought to die in a doorway while escaping, as they are wont to do) have it build up slowly over a few applications of the spray.</li></ul>



<u><b>Blurred roles of support classes</u></b>
(Admittedly, this subject I'm not too sure about so bear that in mind.)
What is the gorge right now? Or for that matter the alien comm? The lerk only gets away with being ill-defined because it can be used to physically kill the enemy.

I'm of the opinion that each should stick to their own well-defined niche of gameplay: the lerk offense, the gorge defense and the commander scouting and strategy. Some overlap between roles is required to provide the necessary redundancy between players inherent in FPS/RTS, so I'm not hardline saying remove all offensive abilities from the gorge.

What this means is I think each class should get an ability which acts to buff their team and one that debuffs the opposite team for their particular role. The gorge would get the heal/damage prevention goo-armor (mentioned above)/hydras as the buff and spit as the primary debuff mechanism. This offers great customisation opportunity because spit could debuff marines in a number of ways depending on the upgrade chosen by the gorge - slow marines down, prevent medpacks working for ~2 seconds, spit damage bypasses armour (for you battlegorges).

In this scenario the lerk would get spore, primal scream and viable attacking weapons to fulfil its offensive roles.



OK I'm tired and getting visibly worse at explaining concepts so good night yall.

Papayas

Anyone up for:

<u><b>Extra armour at back of Gorge / Less damage when hit at back of Gorge.</b></u>


Edit:
What about a melee hydra as well? That would look cool. Possibly ~3 times bigger than normal hydra.
but then you have basically made a whip... but better!

mezimors

sigh

RisingSun

<!--quoteo(post=1886232:date=Nov 23 2011, 02:58 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 23 2011, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello. I disagree with your idea that the gorge should be removed. While under-developed at the moment, it offers some great opportunities to introduce diversity of gameplay to the alien team.

If the alien commander is going to stay in the game then the gorge needs to get some sweet new abilities not related to building (as has already been mentioned).

I like the distinction between lerk and gorge as Offensive and Defensive support and it seems to me the only direction to take the class is to strengthen its defensive abilities.

I'll state right now that I <b>deeply disagree with the suggestion of webs</b> on the grounds that they're either incredibly overpowered or completely useless, depending on whether the marines have a GL(/flamethrower?). That's the "gameplay" reason at least but the tediousness of being webbed is enough to make me want to smash my arms to bloody nubs on my keyboard like that famous gif that's floating around on the internet.


So, to waste my own time, the main problems with the gorge (I warn you I've not been able to play for a couple months so I'm completely behind on updates, but...):

<b><u>Movement technique</b></u>
Current implementation: Waddle and limited belly sliding.

The good: Slide is an active-use skill (very good, more on this next). Gives much needed escape mechanism. Potential increased out of combat travel speed and trade-off while in combat between time spent healing and re-positioning/dodging with slide (<b>Perfect opportunity to replicate gameplay effects of bunnyhop without inviting haters to hate</b>).

The bad: Current implementation hamstrung by real-world physics; Can't go uphill (situational), must go in a straight line (making gorge an easy target and ability useless in combat). Offers little/no(?) speed boost (pointless?). Runs the risk of becoming a boring sprint equivalent of just holding a button to go fast in a straight line.

Potential solution: <ul><li>Increase speed while sliding by 1.3 to 1.5 times base run-speed. </li><li>Allow slide to be used in any situation (up-hill, off gloop and so on). </li><li>Allow a limited amount turning with the mouse to adjust your "in-flight" direction of travel. </li><li>Belly slide will now only travel a fixed distance (I'd suggest a short length, ~3m or so at most) - Keeps the ability engaging, introduces dodging ability. </li><li> <b>Controversial:</b> Implement some sort of slide "chaining" speed bonus as something to do while travelling. For example, increase speed of next slide if you're standing on infestation when you execute it. This is doubly good because inexperienced gorges will be able to take advantage of the defensive speed bonus on home-turf to jet between a few areas with ease while the more advanced player could use it in enemy territory in combination with heal-spray's ability to spawn infestation.</li></ul>


<u><b>Lack of active abilities</b></u>
A good FPS class should have a baseline skill then some extra "active" abilities which are more situational in their use.

Current implementation: Baseline is healspray. Active abilities being hydras and spit which deals a low amount of damage and slows marines [does it even do this? it's hard to tell].

The good: Healspray - Very nice. Hydras - good defensive ability.

The bad: Hydra spam too good (but also annoying for marines), lone hydra too bad. Spit's debuff to marines needs to be more pronounced. Healspray can feel week as a tanking mechanic. It does feel like there is a lack of engaging abilities.

Potential solution:<ul><li>Implement <b>gorge shield</b> as promised in original reveal (90% damage reduction or something) - this ability should use energy on a per second basis, which could otherwise be used for healspray. Ability can act as a last line of defense or be used to buy time as the individual sees fit. "Is the gorge going to pop out of shield and spray or should I be watching the doorway for incoming skulks?" It's very similar to the trade-off marines make in NS1 when a lerk is harassing, you either get slapped by the lerk while watching for incoming aliens or waste all your bullets trying to hit the lerk only to get eaten by a skulk whilst you reload. Also has a nice trade-off with belly-slide in that a better gorge will be able to dodge using the energy-free slide and healspray more often than a gorge relying solely on shielding damage. </li><li> Allow each gorge only one hydra, allow hydras to benefit from team damage/armor upgrades, increase base health.</li><li><b>Controversial:</b> Hydras die after 60seconds if they do not receive a healspray or a sacrificial drifter.

The above 2 suggestions would also help make hydras a bit more involving, something extra to keep check on.
</li><li><b>New ability:</b> Some sort of shielding ability that lets the gorge prevent X damage to a friendly structure or player for ~10s. This could feasibly be implemented as an alt-fire to healspray by spraying slime-goo all over it to form a protective coating. To prevent it becoming an overpowered instant +X health buff (and therefore saving lifeforms which otherwise ought to die in a doorway while escaping, as they are wont to do) have it build up slowly over a few applications of the spray.</li></ul>



<u><b>Blurred roles of support classes</u></b>
(Admittedly, this subject I'm not too sure about so bear that in mind.)
What is the gorge right now? Or for that matter the alien comm? The lerk only gets away with being ill-defined because it can be used to physically kill the enemy.

I'm of the opinion that each should stick to their own well-defined niche of gameplay: the lerk offense, the gorge defense and the commander scouting and strategy. Some overlap between roles is required to provide the necessary redundancy between players inherent in FPS/RTS, so I'm not hardline saying remove all offensive abilities from the gorge.

What this means is I think each class should get an ability which acts to buff their team and one that debuffs the opposite team for their particular role. The gorge would get the heal/damage prevention goo-armor (mentioned above)/hydras as the buff and spit as the primary debuff mechanism. This offers great customisation opportunity because spit could debuff marines in a number of ways depending on the upgrade chosen by the gorge - slow marines down, prevent medpacks working for ~2 seconds, spit damage bypasses armour (for you battlegorges).

In this scenario the lerk would get spore, primal scream and viable attacking weapons to fulfil its offensive roles.



OK I'm tired and getting visibly worse at explaining concepts so good night yall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I personally like a lot of the ideas. Short of combining the two (alien comm and Gorge) a lot of these suggestions or at least the direction it makes you think is great. Clearly defined roles would be nice without too much blurring.

If UWE could give us players an idea of where they want to go with alien classes we could better come up with ideas for them. Do they want clearly defined roles? Or would they rather a 50% unique/ 50% blended approach to make each class not so crucial? I wish UWE would weigh in here and explain some things. We need guide lines or at least what their over all picture is.

edit: Really like the different gorge spit debuff ideas. (instead of slow a marine why not it just disables sprinting for a time. That way you dont move slower than walk which is ungodly slow as is)

N4kame0

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'><!--quoteo(post=1882678:date=Oct 30 2011, 03:42 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Oct 30 2011, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this happened, I would have no problem at all with the gorge co-existing with commander. Maybe not necessarily with mines, but I think you might have stumbled on something.

If the gorge could more readily expand infestation and had significant personal advantages for doing so, I could see the player having incentive to doing things that benefit the team. Maybe he gets abilities that work on infestation, or gets a buff. I could see a gorge being scary playing on his home turf, slipping along the infestation and leading enemies into ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
</span>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'><!--quoteo(post=1886232:date=Nov 23 2011, 05:58 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 23 2011, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello. I disagree with your idea that the gorge should be removed. While under-developed at the moment, it offers some great opportunities to introduce diversity of gameplay to the alien team.

If the alien commander is going to stay in the game then the gorge needs to get some sweet new abilities not related to building (as has already been mentioned).

I like the distinction between lerk and gorge as Offensive and Defensive support and it seems to me the only direction to take the class is to strengthen its defensive abilities.

I'll state right now that I <b>deeply disagree with the suggestion of webs</b> on the grounds that they're either incredibly overpowered or completely useless, depending on whether the marines have a GL(/flamethrower?). That's the "gameplay" reason at least but the tediousness of being webbed is enough to make me want to smash my arms to bloody nubs on my keyboard like that famous gif that's floating around on the internet.


So, to waste my own time, the main problems with the gorge (I warn you I've not been able to play for a couple months so I'm completely behind on updates, but...):

<b><u>Movement technique</b></u>
Current implementation: Waddle and limited belly sliding.

The good: Slide is an active-use skill (very good, more on this next). Gives much needed escape mechanism. Potential increased out of combat travel speed and trade-off while in combat between time spent healing and re-positioning/dodging with slide (<b>Perfect opportunity to replicate gameplay effects of bunnyhop without inviting haters to hate</b>).

The bad: Current implementation hamstrung by real-world physics; Can't go uphill (situational), must go in a straight line (making gorge an easy target and ability useless in combat). Offers little/no(?) speed boost (pointless?). Runs the risk of becoming a boring sprint equivalent of just holding a button to go fast in a straight line.

Potential solution: <ul><li>Increase speed while sliding by 1.3 to 1.5 times base run-speed. </li><li>Allow slide to be used in any situation (up-hill, off gloop and so on). </li><li>Allow a limited amount turning with the mouse to adjust your "in-flight" direction of travel. </li><li>Belly slide will now only travel a fixed distance (I'd suggest a short length, ~3m or so at most) - Keeps the ability engaging, introduces dodging ability. </li><li> <b>Controversial:</b> Implement some sort of slide "chaining" speed bonus as something to do while travelling. For example, increase speed of next slide if you're standing on infestation when you execute it. This is doubly good because inexperienced gorges will be able to take advantage of the defensive speed bonus on home-turf to jet between a few areas with ease while the more advanced player could use it in enemy territory in combination with heal-spray's ability to spawn infestation.</li></ul>


<u><b>Lack of active abilities</b></u>
A good FPS class should have a baseline skill then some extra "active" abilities which are more situational in their use.

Current implementation: Baseline is healspray. Active abilities being hydras and spit which deals a low amount of damage and slows marines [does it even do this? it's hard to tell].

The good: Healspray - Very nice. Hydras - good defensive ability.

The bad: Hydra spam too good (but also annoying for marines), lone hydra too bad. Spit's debuff to marines needs to be more pronounced. Healspray can feel week as a tanking mechanic. It does feel like there is a lack of engaging abilities.

Potential solution:<ul><li>Implement <b>gorge shield</b> as promised in original reveal (90% damage reduction or something) - this ability should use energy on a per second basis, which could otherwise be used for healspray. Ability can act as a last line of defense or be used to buy time as the individual sees fit. "Is the gorge going to pop out of shield and spray or should I be watching the doorway for incoming skulks?" It's very similar to the trade-off marines make in NS1 when a lerk is harassing, you either get slapped by the lerk while watching for incoming aliens or waste all your bullets trying to hit the lerk only to get eaten by a skulk whilst you reload. Also has a nice trade-off with belly-slide in that a better gorge will be able to dodge using the energy-free slide and healspray more often than a gorge relying solely on shielding damage. </li><li> Allow each gorge only one hydra, allow hydras to benefit from team damage/armor upgrades, increase base health.</li><li><b>Controversial:</b> Hydras die after 60seconds if they do not receive a healspray or a sacrificial drifter.

The above 2 suggestions would also help make hydras a bit more involving, something extra to keep check on.
</li><li><b>New ability:</b> Some sort of shielding ability that lets the gorge prevent X damage to a friendly structure or player for ~10s. This could feasibly be implemented as an alt-fire to healspray by spraying slime-goo all over it to form a protective coating. To prevent it becoming an overpowered instant +X health buff (and therefore saving lifeforms which otherwise ought to die in a doorway while escaping, as they are wont to do) have it build up slowly over a few applications of the spray.</li></ul>



<u><b>Blurred roles of support classes</u></b>
(Admittedly, this subject I'm not too sure about so bear that in mind.)
What is the gorge right now? Or for that matter the alien comm? The lerk only gets away with being ill-defined because it can be used to physically kill the enemy.

I'm of the opinion that each should stick to their own well-defined niche of gameplay: the lerk offense, the gorge defense and the commander scouting and strategy. Some overlap between roles is required to provide the necessary redundancy between players inherent in FPS/RTS, so I'm not hardline saying remove all offensive abilities from the gorge.

What this means is I think each class should get an ability which acts to buff their team and one that debuffs the opposite team for their particular role. The gorge would get the heal/damage prevention goo-armor (mentioned above)/hydras as the buff and spit as the primary debuff mechanism. This offers great customisation opportunity because spit could debuff marines in a number of ways depending on the upgrade chosen by the gorge - slow marines down, prevent medpacks working for ~2 seconds, spit damage bypasses armour (for you battlegorges).

In this scenario the lerk would get spore, primal scream and viable attacking weapons to fulfil its offensive roles.



OK I'm tired and getting visibly worse at explaining concepts so good night yall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--></span>

Combination of these 2 ideas (no web too op)
+1

Would make the gorge a much more valid choice and very much interesting to play.

VeNeM

<!--quoteo(post=1881994:date=Oct 25 2011, 03:21 PM:name=Shalfa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shalfa @ Oct 25 2011, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that the gorge need to be buffed or get some new abilities atleast, gorge's main attack is pretty useless against marines (Maybe it should be like that) but still, It only has hydra and heal (+ bile bomb) but that's kinda it, It doesn't get kills in a cool way, you don't sneak around in roofs and suprise your enemies, make them blind and shoot them down or anything like that, they get kills with their hydras and not very often their main attack. I mean they can kill someone with main attack if hes already weakned, or else it's kinda over for the gorge >:/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


this

gorge should be the main attack force for aliens. gorge spit should one-hit kill. and he should be able to spin around like a ninja and chuck hovaring scorpains like ninja stars.