Current Game Imbalance

Shilorius · September 2011

This Topic is not supposed to rant. It is supposed to find an list the reason why the game is currently imbalanced.
After playing many games, I just want to share my observations

I know that the imbalance might change if onos and exo are in the game, but I want to take a look at it as it is now.

<u>Starting of with the cost for structures and the RES the team has to spend to research and build anything.</u>
<b>Aliens</b>
+ Whip (10 res)
+ RT (10 res) (reactor)
+ RT (10 res) (crevice)
+ crag (10res)
+ shift (10 res)
+ mature whip (10r)
+ evolvable upgrades (frenzy, bile, swarm, camo (40 res))
+ new hive (50 res)
+ all melee/armor upgrades (150r),
= a total of <b>300</b> res to build everything and have all upgrades (pretending, that nothing gets destroyed))

<b>Marines</b>
- IP (10 res)
- 2nd IP (10 res)
- Armory (10 res)
- RT (10 res) (flight)
- RT (10 res) (vent)
- arms lab (20 res)
- researching shotgun (15 res)
- armory upgrade (30 res)
- researching flamer (20 res)
- researching GL (15res)
- obs (10 res)
- robotics factory (20 res)
- all weapons&armor upgrades (150res)
- phase tech (15res)
- 2x phase gate (30res)
- powerpack (15res)
- turret (10res)
= a total of <b>400</b> res to build everything and have all upgrades (again pretending, that nothing gets destroyed)
+ MAC 5r, MAC update (5r) (remember Alien Drifters are free), ARC 10r

<u>Now for the win chances in a 1 vs 1</u>

<b>Skulk vs Marine</b>
If the skulk is near the marine it will kill him, if it is more far away the marine has a chance to kill it. But in a 1vs1 it is more likeley that the skulk will win. Even in the later game the skulk is still deadly, but dies easily against a GL or flamer. The Shotgun kills the skulk in one hit, but it is hart to shoot it at point blanc.
Anyway, I like the current skulk vs marine battle.

<b>Lerk vs Marine</b>
The new gas is awesome! It stays long enough to deny the marines from an area and the lerk doesn't sit around anymore but has to fly activly around. On the other hand spikes are to powerful. If a single Lerk encounters a single marine, the marine will die. A lerk is hard to hit (exept with the flamer, but the flamer doesn't do enough damage to be a threat) and it can almost take a marine out as fast as the fade does which makes it almost as deadly as a fade in a 1vs1

<b>Fade vs Marine</b>
The fade is strong. It can kill the marine in 2 seconds with no chance for the marine of doing anything against that.
A fade can blinc around to avoid bullets or even turn around and run.
A marine can... do nothing. He can't block the attack (as seen in the Fade reveal video), he cant turn around and run, he even can't kill the fade in time with a shotgun to save his live (even is you hit the fade with 2 shots at point blanc.. it will kill you first). Even a groge survives longer against a marine then the marine against the fade.
In summary: if a marine encounters a fade, the marine dies.
Now for the argument that marines can kill a fade if they form a group. That is right, but if the fades form also a group.. it is pretty hard again.

<b>To recap: The marine is not able to fight alone.
That means:</b>
- Aliens are able to pull of "rambo action" .. like: one alien goes to kill a marine RT. If a marine comes and tires to defend the RT the alien as still good chances to kill the marine and finish the extractor afterwards.
- a marine can try to kill an Alien RT, but if he is discovered by aliens, the lone marine will die.
---> That means that marine RTs get way more destroyed then Alien RTs thus the marines have to invest more Res to build new ones. This increases the imbalance because the marines need 100res more to build everything in the first place.
---> Which is also responsible for the huge amount of Res the aliens can save, while the marine RTs getting destroyed.
------> More res again means, that you just can build a new hive iover and over again if the marines manage to kill one.

- a alien is stronger then a marine (okay, exept the gorge). This means if the aliens form a group, they will win most likely against a group of marines. Ever tried to go with a group of 5 marines into DC while there are 5 skulks waiting?

<u>What I think what <i>may</i> balance the game</u>
<b>- lower the damage of the lerk spikes</b>
..or at least make it slower. The gas is awesome and it defindes the supporter role for the lerk, but the spikes do to much damage. As i wrote abouve a lerk needs ljust 2 secondes to kill a marine with the spikes. that is to quick.

<b>- increase the damage of the flamer</b>
The flamer is only good at one thing ATM and that is making aliens go back to the hive. But if the flamer marine sets an alien on fire it can still kill that marine relaxed befor it has to retreat.
A flamer is the most expensive weapon for the marines and decreases the walking speed distinctly.

<b>- set the burning time of the flamer to a maximum of 5 seconds</b>
...to make up for the increased damage.

<b>- increase the damage of the fade-stab</b>
This attack is supposed to kill a marine in one hit. even if the fade has just melee#1 and the marine has armor#3. The Fade sacrifices its mobility for this attack, so it should be worth it.

<b>- lower the damage of the fade-swipe</b>.
A fade with melee#3 should need against a marine with armor#3 at least 4 swipes or 5.
I know, that is not very stroong, but as I wrote earlier: The fade can dodge bullets or escape the battle with blink, or just run away. The marine on the other hand doesn't have a chance to avoid damage.

Increasing the marine armor comes to my mind too, but this would mean that you have to increase damage a skulk bite does as well this the skulks kills buildings faster.. so.. not a good idea I think

So, tell me,
what is your opinion about that?

<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Hope there are not to many typos and grammar errors in it....</span>

Ironsoul · September 2011

I like it, I'm sure someone will find something in your ideas to complain about.

But, as you said before, but didn't mention it being an idea. What if the marine could stun a fade by meleeing it. Which would stop the face from dealing damage, and maybe even slow fade walk/run speed. This doesn't affect fade blink speed, and a well played fade can still blink in, swipe, blink out.

Something to think about.

GeneralBowser · September 2011

I agree on the lerk spikes, they are a bit to powerfull atm.

I think skulk vs marine combat is pretty equal on Tier 1, Armor/Melee 0 it takes 3 bites to kill, thats fine tbh.

I'm not sure about the fade, you can increase flames yes, but it's a no-skill weapon, so it really shouldn't be to powerfull, it's pretty good the way it is imo.

Wilson · September 2011

I agree with you that the economic advantage for the aliens is really strong. The marines have things that they are required to build and research or else they are at a huge disadvantage. The aliens don't really have that. I've been in games where we have had no alien com for 5 minutes and then still won the game.

IMO, res towers are really not important for the aliens right now and that's why all of the focus is on the 2nd hive. If you lose a res tower as aliens it's really not a big deal.

I think that if res was more important for aliens then the game would be a lot more interesting as fights would be over RTs rather than just the 2nd hive. Having more res should allow you to tech up faster than the other team and thus give you a combat advantage.

I also feel like this is a big reason for "hive spam" as the aliens don't have much else to spend the res on, they can just place hives over and over without any consequences.

I don't think that 1 skulk vs 1 marine favours the skulk. I think the only reason that may be the case at the moment is because of performance issues rather than an imbalance in the game. I believe that once everyone is getting 60fps and skulks aren't jumping/warping around like crazy then the marines will be much more dominant. I also think this is the case for lerks. It is really difficult to track a lerk with 15 fps. Maybe the rifle's damage should be improved a little, or reload time decreased a bit.

I think the fade should kill marines in 3 hits. I also think blink will need to be tweaked.

I don't think damage of the flamethower should be increased. I hate the flamethrower at the moment. It takes no skill to use and marines just spam jump while using it and it looks stupid. I'd much rather see a flare gun type weapon instead. I also really dislike the random burn time; it's frustrating for both aliens and marines. I think it should be changed to a fixed time.

TekJ · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Sep 8 2011, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><u>Starting of with the cost for structures and the RES the team has to spend to research and build anything.</u>
<b>Aliens</b>
+ Whip (10 res)
+ RT (10 res) (reactor)
+ RT (10 res) (crevice)
+ crag (10res)
+ shift (10 res)
+ mature whip (10r)
+ evolvable upgrades (frenzy, bile, swarm, camo (40 res))
+ new hive (50 res)
+ all melee/armor upgrades (150r),
= a total of <b>300</b> res to build everything and have all upgrades (pretending, that nothing gets destroyed))

<b>Marines</b>
- IP (10 res)
- 2nd IP (10 res)
- Armory (10 res)
- RT (10 res) (flight)
- RT (10 res) (vent)
- arms lab (20 res)
- researching shotgun (15 res)
- armory upgrade (30 res)
- researching flamer (20 res)
- researching GL (15res)
- obs (10 res)
- robotics factory (20 res)
- all weapons&armor upgrades (150res)
- phase tech (15res)
- 2x phase gate (30res)
- powerpack (15res)
- turret (10res)
= a total of <b>400</b> res to build everything and have all upgrades (again pretending, that nothing gets destroyed)
+ MAC 5r, MAC update (5r) (remember Alien Drifters are free), ARC 10r</div>

The time needed for different structures is different.
Concrete example which shifts the time for obtaining resources:
+ RT (10 res) (reactor) <- Approximately 45 seconds to 1 minute after the first "whips" by counting the cyst
+ RT (10 res) (crevice) <- 2:30 minutes after the first "whips". Unless we are assisted by a gorge, which means one alien less for versus alien / marine.
From there, everything is shifted. It's much harder to create resources in alien than marine.

For the versus :
You just need a good commander. You have a vision overly FFA. With a strategy, you launch GL quickly, and skulk, Lerk and gorge are dead very quickly.

Stop crying "Lame Hive" Skill player killing a hive before complet build. That there have 1 or 3.

This thread is a bunch of information that provides raw data, without considering external factors. <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">it looks like our politicians french.</span>
With another priority, a flamethrower can be release after 7/10 minutes of play -> bye bye lerk and fade. Hello push hive in build !

It is only my opinion.
<b>
The problem for me is that resources are just too easily acquired. And a round has stalled because of it.</b>

twiliteblue · September 2011

I agree that Fade Stab and Flamethrower should be re-balanced.

Lerk "shotgun spikes" damage is indeed quite high this build. But it is needed for Lerks to stand a chance against Shotgunners at close range. It will need to be reduced next build, once Spikes' range is increased.

From my perspective, a lot of the differences brought up are not actually imbalances, bur rather differences that create asymmetric game play.

For example, the cost of Marine vs Alien tech: At the start of the game Marines are capable of building 2 Resource Nodes (for a total of 3) a lot faster than Aliens can, leading to an early game resource advantage. That is of course, dependent on the map layout (eg. Summit). But generally, Marines can capture far away Resource Nodes quicker than Aliens. It is not uncommon for Marines to hold 4 Extractors, when Aliens only have 2 or 3 Harvesters during early game.

Marines are also a lot more flexible than Aliens, due to the Recycle ability. For instance, An Extractor costs 10 TRes, and can be recycled, returning 7.5 TRes, should it fall under attack. That means an Extractor only needs to generate 2.5 TRes before it pays for itself.
Aliens, on the other hand, must defend their Harvesters, or suffer a 10 TRes loss.

Marines can reuse weapons dropped by fallen teammates. They also have a good chance to recover their Guns, should they die close to an Infantry Portal or Phase Gate.
Most Alien lifeforms are a lot more expensive than Marine weapons. Eg A Lerk costs 30 PRes, whereas a Shotgun only costs 20 Pres (or 15Pres, if it is picked up 25% of the time). Thus Alien lifeforms have to be slightly stronger than Marine weapons in certain situations.

IMO these "imbalances" creates diversity in tactics. Aliens can play aggressively, to capitalize on their power, but risk losing their expensive lifeforms; Alternatively, they can play conservatively, but are capable of exhausting Marines' resources, by ambushing Marines, depriving them of their advanced weapons.

Although in an one-on-one fight, a Marine lack the combat power of an Alien, Marines have Grenade Launcher, Flamethrower, Shotgun, which can weaken, or even kill groups of Aliens in a few seconds. Marines forces are also bolstered by superior AI units, including ARCs, MACs, and Sentries.

When attacking as a group, you should always have one Marine lead the rest to draw out any lurking Aliens, so a few Grenades can send them back to their eggs.

Overall, I feel it takes Marines a lot of effort to secure territory in B185. But once a Phase Gate and a few Sentries are erected, it is very difficult for Aliens to retake. From watching the clan matches on youtube, it appears that territory control is often neglected by the Marine team, who often perform high-risk strategies, such as rushing at the second Hive, without a backup plan.

Thr problem, I think, is probably due to the high cost of Sentries. If the cost of Sentries are reduced, but their numbers capped, it would improve the game's balance in every way.

NurEinMensch · September 2011

Just looking at those numbers doesn't give the whole picture. Lots of content is still missing, the cut off point for both team's tech trees is rather arbitrary. I would even say marine tech > alien tech right now. Evidence of this is how marines have no problem dealing with all kinds of alien structures, while aliens have a hard time taking out marine structures, especially sentries. And like it has been said the timing is different for both teams.

Going into all these details doesn't make sense before we got the full game imo.

Smasher · September 2011

A thing to point out with the eco "imbalance", is that once the Aliens have built and upgraded everything, there's nothing more to spend it on (while marines can get e.g. ARCs and turrets)

About the Lerk spikes: It's very hard to land spikes continually when flying - it often takes flying back and forth a couple of times to get "2s" worth of spikes into the target.
Sure, you can land/fly slowly and shoot for 2s, but the lerk is very fragile.. Losing movement usually means death (e.g. 1 hit with a shotgun at ~PB range)

Flamethrower: It's supposed to be a support weapon, not a BBQ lightsabre, buffing the damage would just be stupid. Also, it's annoying as it is to ambush a FT marine with limited energy (only 1 bar worth of energy, since it doesn't recharge), kill it before the marine FT kills you, only to then keep burning for 20s and then die back at the hive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>(remember Alien Drifters are free)</div>
But they are used up when building, and share the same resources as cysts use - and you have to have DI too or you can't build anything.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>IMO, res towers are really not important for the aliens right now and that's why all of the focus is on the 2nd hive. If you lose a res tower as aliens it's really not a big deal</div> Because there's nothing to spent it on when all is researched..
Also, the marine priority usually is to get many RTs, research something for the Res, and then use the Res on weapons etc.
Aliens need RTs to get enough to build Hives for their "research", then use the Res "buy" the research/evolve

____

Well, my point:
1. Can't just see it from one angle and tweak the facts by only showing/writing half of them.
2. You can't really draw any worthwhile conclusions from pure numbers, there's a lot more to it

twiliteblue · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Sep 8 2011, 05:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>A thing to point out with the eco "imbalance", is that once the Aliens have built and upgraded everything, there's nothing more to spend it on (while marines can get e.g. ARCs and turrets)

Because there's nothing to spent it on when all is researched..
Also, the marine priority usually is to get many RTs, research something for the Res, and then use the Res on weapons etc.
Aliens need RTs to get enough to build Hives for their "research", then use the Res "buy" the research/evolve</div>
I'd just like to add that while that is not entirely true (aliens can build more structures), Marines simply have so many effective weapons that can take out Alien defenses (ARC plus most of the personal weapons, except the Flamethrower and Pistol). It is usually not worth the time for Aliens to build structures near Marine positions.

fanatic · September 2011

None of this has any merit until the FPS and networking issues are fixed. As soon as it's possible to aim properly, balance will change drastically. For one, the new crop duster spores and rapid-fire lerk spikes will become obsolete, while the spike secondary fire will start to excel. On the other hand, skulks will become useless at anything other than ambushing, at least until some sort of improved movement system is implemented.

The biggest resource problem right now is that the aliens start with too much T-res (can drop a hive right away, which leads to really short win or lose games) and the marine comm doesn't get enough P-res (can't drop enough meds and ammo to support marines).

Bacillus · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 8 2011, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The biggest resource problem right now is that the aliens start with too much T-res (can drop a hive right away, which leads to really short win or lose games) and the marine comm doesn't get enough P-res (can't drop enough meds and ammo to support marines).</div>
I think the whole hive design is still least to say questionable. In 1.0 era NS the skulk-lerk combo at first hive simply ran out of steam when marines got better at abusing the weaknesses. I'd like to believe the top tier players haven't got worse at hitting where it hurts during the later versions. Leap is a huge boon of course, but it has got its own issues and even then I don't know how it's going to cut against all the marine equipment that moves around the map.

fanatic · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 8 2011, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the whole hive design is still least to say questionable. In 1.0 era NS the skulk-lerk combo at first hive simply ran out of steam when marines got better at abusing the weaknesses. I'd like to believe the top tier players haven't got worse at hitting where it hurts during the later versions. Leap is a huge boon of course, but it has got its own issues and even then I don't know how it's going to cut against all the marine equipment that moves around the map.</div>
I agree. Even the much more powerful NS1 leap was all but useless against good shotgunners -- the trajectory is too easy to predict.

Wilson · September 2011

I think having hives unlock later tech is fine, but I think that the tech should then need to be researched rather than simply unlocking when the hive is complete. In general I think it'd be better if a lot more things needed to be researched, e.g. lerks are unavailable at the start of the game and the com has to build a "lerk nest" building in order to unlock them. He could then access more upgrades for the lerks from that building (attack upgrades as well as additional abilities).

I think that doing it this way would force the commander to make choices. You only have a certain amount of res so you need to decide if you want to get lerks early, or instead upgrade your skulks and wait a while before getting lerks. For me this is a lot more interesting than simply having most things unlocked right away. It also allows the marine team to scout and try to get an idea of what the aliens are planning to put their res into.

I feel like this would put more emphasis on attacking and defending extractors, rather than simply on the hives. It wouldn't matter if they had a second hive if they couldn't afford to research any of the tier 2 tech.

I also feel that the marine team should need to get a second com chair up in order to get later game tech as well.

Dragon-Guard · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TekJ @ Sep 8 2011, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>For the versus :
You just need a good commander. You have a vision overly FFA. With a strategy, you launch GL quickly, and skulk, Lerk and gorge are dead very quickly.

Stop crying "Lame Hive" Skill player killing a hive before complet build. That there have 1 or 3.

This thread is a bunch of information that provides raw data, without considering external factors. <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">it looks like our politicians french.</span>
With another priority, a flamethrower can be release after 7/10 minutes of play -> bye bye lerk and fade. Hello push hive in build !

It is only my opinion.
<b>
The problem for me is that resources are just too easily acquired. And a round has stalled because of it.</b></div>

I disagree with most of what you said.

GL aren't effective vs a good lerk and are hard to hit on a moving skulk in a 1v1.
The comm in ns2 is more about providing the marines with tech and support, but he can do nothing to directly support you in a fight (medpacks are to slow so they cant really be counted to that, they only serve to keep the marines moving AFTER a fight)

Your second point, besides being in bad English, is also rubbish.
Try looking at clan matches on NS2HD's channel, aliens are perfectly able to get hives up, sure not always but by your definition this would mean those clan players are unskilled because they let a hive go up.
You have 2 teams locked in a fight to either get or prevent a second hive, with aliens mobility and superior power (especially in early game) having a hive successfully drop isn't rare, its what an entire alien team is working for afterall.

As for the flamer, i have NEVER died to a flamer in ns2, a group of 2 shotgunners and a flamer MIGHT be able to take on a SINGLE fade, so acting all high and mighty by saying "flamer = byebye fade/lerk durrr" is imo again nonsense.
Because how often do you see an alien acting alone if they really try to defend something?

For OP's post, isn't making swipe an insta kill a bit op?
At least how it is now you can blink in the air, swipe and drop down on the marine and it will hit, without giving the marine a chance to do anything about it

Bacillus · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 8 2011, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think having hives unlock later tech is fine, but I think that the tech should then need to be researched rather than simply unlocking when the hive is complete. In general I think it'd be better if a lot more things needed to be researched, e.g. lerks are unavailable at the start of the game and the com has to build a "lerk nest" building in order to unlock them. He could then access more upgrades for the lerks from that building (attack upgrades as well as additional abilities).</div>
Yeh, nothing wrong with the hives unlocking tech and requiring researches could be an excellent adjustment for 'softening' the transition to 2nd hive. If the alien commander is there to stay, the right use of researches definitely seems like a brilliant way to improve the game.

At least what I'm mostly opposing is locking the higher lifeforms to 2nd hive. There are limits on what you can do against <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzyi4XF0jKk" target="_blank">a skilled marine with shotgun</a> (and machine guns to a bit lesser extend). Usually you want to have something that can soak up at least some damage when fighting a good shotgunner, not to speak half a dozen shotgunners on the present res model. Lerks can offer some ranged support, but I don't think they can really solve the problem as long as the commander meds and marines weld each other.

P.S. I know pasting that wltrs movie everywhere is getting a bit old, but I find it a pretty good way to illustrate how good the marines can get and what the aliens should somehow overcome without being completely reliant on the marine making mistakes.

fanatic · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 8 2011, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>P.S. I know pasting that wltrs movie everywhere is getting a bit old, but I find it a pretty good way to illustrate how good the marines can get and what the aliens should somehow overcome without being completely reliant on the marine making mistakes.</div>
At least post the redux version, not the old one! <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSXEUXSj55k&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSXEUXSj55k...feature=related</a>

ScardyBob · September 2011

I don't think its any surprise that the current res system isn't working properly. Hive energy (for drifters/cysts) rather than TRes is the limiting factor on the aliens side right now, so a marine-to-alien TRes comparison isn't very enlightening.

WRT players, alien rambos are simply much more effective (and, therefore, used) than marine rambos. As such, marines require teamwork to make sufficient progress while aliens do not, leading any equal numbered match to generally favor aliens (unless the marines have much more individual skill).

Finally, individual player skill is the key factor determining success. If you have more players with good framerate and they can shoot very well (meaning they rarely miss), then you win. Tactics and strategy only come into play when teams are equally skilled.

swalk · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>- lower the damage of the fade-swipe.
A fade with melee#3 should need against a marine with armor#3 at least 4 swipes or 5.
I know, that is not very stroong, but as I wrote earlier: The fade can dodge bullets or escape the battle with blink, or just run away. The marine on the other hand doesn't have a chance to avoid damage.</div>
3 swipes vs 3 good shotgun hits with equal damage/armor upgrades is ideal I think. Even 4 swipes(with equal upgrades) would make the fades really weak.
Remember to use your pistol if you see the fade at long enough range to be able to draw your shotgun if he blinks at you. It takes alot, if not all, the fades armor if you get the entire mag into him(this will be even more important once carapace gets in :P).
Also with a team that place themselves tactically, and avoid a few swipes. They can be deadly to fades.
Sprinting(for a sec, avoid 1-2 swipes) and jumping railings etc. helps your survivability a bit against fades.
If you are the target of the fade, Shoot, manoeuvre, shoot shoot shoot! :P
The commander should also be dropping medpacks against fades, as they are a more expensive(deadly) unit than any of the current marine weapons.
But only if he really wants you to kill it and can afford it ^^

I pretty much agree with everything else.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The problem for me is that resources are just too easily acquired. And a round has stalled because of it.</div>
The resource model is not working great in many ways. But I think most of it is because of missing content.

Harvesters feel very cheap at the moment, compared to Extractors.
They are too easy to replace. Marines needs a marine or a MAC(5 team res), Aliens just use the energy of the hive to replace everything, with no players needed to do anything else than defending and attacking.

Replace energy of the Hive and Chambers with Personal Res. This would make it more hurtful to lose a harvester.
This means that Drifters, Infestation, Umbra, Fury, Cloak are all bought for a balanced amount of Personal Res.
It would bring alot more stategy into using these abilities, since you are limited by your personal res, and not time.

Make Extractors and Harvesters cost 15 team res.

I believe this could fix some of the gaps and flaws in the resource model.
Alien spam will be less. Cysts in base? Bad idea.

Shilorius · September 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dragon-Guard @ Sep 8 2011, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>For OP's post, isn't making swipe an insta kill a bit op?
At least how it is now you can blink in the air, swipe and drop down on the marine and it will hit, without giving the marine a chance to do anything about it</div>
I guess you mean the stab? (2nd fade weapon) That would be pretty hard to pull off. The fade has to time his drop right to that he drops if the stab does damage and he has to find the spot where the marine will be in two seconds. If he manages that, it would be plain awesome, I think.

BTW, I agree with the rest of what you said!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 9 2011, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>3 swipes vs 3 good shotgun hits with equal damage/armor upgrades is ideal I think. Even 4 swipes(with equal upgrades) would make the fades really weak.
Remember to use your pistol if you see the fade at long enough range to be able to draw your shotgun if he blinks at you. It takes alot, if not all, the fades armor if you get the entire mag into him(this will be even more important once carapace gets in :P).
Also with a team that place themselves tactically, and avoid a few swipes. They can be deadly to fades.
Sprinting(for a sec, avoid 1-2 swipes) and jumping railings etc. helps your survivability a bit against fades.
If you are the target of the fade, Shoot, manoeuvre, shoot shoot shoot! :P
The commander should also be dropping medpacks against fades, as they are a more expensive(deadly) unit than any of the current marine weapons.
But only if he really wants you to kill it and can afford it ^^</div>
In PT-mod 4.0 the fade needed 4 swipes to kill a marine and the fade still was a big threat.
Usually if a fade pops up right in front of you, you have next to no time to react until the fade lands its first hit. After that the marine has only a minimal chance to move out of the fades range (or jump on a railing). But if the fade needs 4 swipes the marines chance of pulling off some maneuver will increase.
A single marine is still no match for a fade, but the fade has to put more efford into killing him (swipe, blink around, swipe again, blink .. etc.)
BTW. in the PTmod the Fade was even able to kill jetpackers.. with 4 swipes and only 80 ammo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 9 2011, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The resource model is not working great in many ways. But I think most of it is because of missing content.

Harvesters feel very cheap at the moment, compared to Extractors.
They are too easy to replace. Marines needs a marine or a MAC(5 team res), Aliens just use the energy of the hive to replace everything, with no players needed to do anything else than defending and attacking.

Replace energy of the Hive and Chambers with Personal Res. This would make it more hurtful to lose a harvester.
This means that Drifters, Infestation, Umbra, Fury, Cloak are all bought for a balanced amount of Personal Res.
It would bring alot more stategy into using these abilities, since you are limited by your personal res, and not time.

Make Extractors and Harvesters cost 15 team res.

I believe this could fix some of the gaps and flaws in the resource model.
Alien spam will be less. Cysts in base? Bad idea.</div>
I really like that Idea!
This will make the p-res pool of the alien com more useful. I addition it keeps the game more balaced in the long run, because if the aliens have 2 hives the alien commander has enough energy in hands to plaster the map with structures. And it gives the marines a further target (RTs) rather than just the hives.

Maybe Schimmel can put it in the PT mod next time that we can test it out.
My Ideas for the p-res price:
- cyst 2 p-res (gorges mini cyst costs 3 afaik.. so the alien com has the advantage)
- triggering ability of a chamber: 2 p-res (to match up with the medpack of the marines)
- drifter 5p-res (cheap enough to buy some, but to expensive for drifter spam.)
I chose this low prices because the alien com usually not kills marines thus getting only res from RTs

Current Game Imbalance

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