- Commander can group selected players using ctrl+number - Commander can select players by pressing number - Commander can go to players location by pressing number twice - Optional : a little icon appears with binded stuff and number
<!--quoteo(post=1873649:date=Sep 8 2011, 11:07 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 8 2011, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wacko , I repeat my argument against spawning on squad members...
The maps in NS 2 are not so large that it takes forever to join up with your squad, I dont think you are ever more than 60 - 80 secs sprint away from any point in a NS 2 map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think the marines need some way to travel around the map quickly. Phase gates are required for marines to put any kind of pressure on the aliens. It just takes far too long to travel the map otherwise. This is just another way of travelling around the map quickly.
I think a lot of people are having a knee-jerk reaction to this idea. I think it's better to try and have an open mind and see how it works before dismissing it. I'm glad that UWE are willing to try new ideas. Yes, some won't work and will be removed (e.g. slow on hit) but experimenting with them is good as it may lead to 1 or 2 really awesome things.
IMO there really won't be much difference between squad spawning and phase gates. It's just a better way of getting marines into combat sooner.
With phase gates, if you leave them undefended for any time then 1 skulk can camp it and most likely kill any marines that are coming through. The only way to stop this is to place sentry guns and this only works because the aliens don't have enough ways of dealing with sentries. Once the aliens can destroy sentries as easily as marines can take out hydras then any good alien team will take out phase gates as soon as they are left undefended. This will work just the same as killing all the marines and stopping them from spawning on squad. The only difference will be that less time will be spent attacking buildings and more time attacking other players (which I consider a very good thing).
People are saying that this will encourage camping when you lose a member of your squad, but again that is no different than if you had a phase gate. You wait for your team mates before making a push (e.g. you "camp" in ventilation until you are ready to push on the hive in data core). The difference being again that it would encourage more player vs player combat. The aliens would be rewarded for taking out the entire marine squad and the game would encourage them to fight the marines rather than camping and letting them reinforce. It could actually create more clutch moments as 1 marine tries to defend against multiple aliens - if he manages to hold out then a team mate spawns in and the marines retain their positional advantage. To me that seems a lot more interesting than having to build up a base and slowly move forward from there.
One thing I don't like at all is how much UWE has made changes claiming them to help the game scaling for different playercounts. For example the alien commander is still mostly justified as that. Then again now they're putting pretty notable focus on features that don't work well on smaller games.
As far as I've understood, right now multiple commanders are supposed to beneficial and allow new strategical options instead of just being a helping feature to avoid overloading the commander with tasks. On a team of 16 players using another commander is no biggie, on 6 players it's a huge deal.
Now the squads are starting to look a feature that works mostly on team sizes over 10 players. For example if you need a squad of 2 marines to spawn in the 3rd, you're pretty much forced to have squads of 3 to recover from casualties. There are only that many ways to organise less than 10 marines into squads of 3 and spread them around the map. And that's assuming everybody is playing nicely along instead of having their own plan with a bunch of friends automatically grouped up with them.
---
I can't say I'm too fond of the idea of them spending time in getting the squad spawning right either. It took a while to get the eggs spawn right in hives, which seems like a trivial task compared to this. Is there some good way to get marines spawn reliably into a constantly moving point in map? I could see some pretty awkward situations where marines spawn to block enemies, allies and/or lines of fire or end up getting stuck or isolated from the squad right away due to the architecture.
I just can't think of way to teleport marines into field without it leading to silly situations here and there, not at least without a very strict and restrictive set of rules to disallow any situation where the system might fall apart.
I say lets give squad spawning a shot. I'm not liking the concept of it but we haven't actually seen it in action. Considering that squad spawning will also be research-able, not default and you have a choice to do so makes it more appealing. I don't know if want but lets see before jumping to harsh criticisms. Maybe it'll be fail, maybe it'll be win. Either way, GO UWE!
At the moment the game is unbalanced with the Fades having far too much power over Marines, this is why Marine gameplay seems slow and lethargic ... a single Fade can practically hold off a Marine squad. It isnt because the marines need another method to teleport to areas, and when ( if ) UWE can balance the Fade then the teleport feature will make the Marines too effective. Wouldnt the Jet Pack upgrade be more in tune with the NS style AND provide a means to get around faster ? Why not add that in first rather than a system that is game breaking and unintuitive ?
How will you cordinate a Kharaa defence when the enemy build up can change instantly ? Hey guys we got a single Marine with a Shotgun in xxxx, oh make that 2 Marines... one with Shotgun and a Flamer, ooops ... 3 now. It also makes it too easy to bring situational weapons to the front, die from a Hydra garden ? Respawn on your mates head with a GL in hand ( or will all the respawning Marines be LMG only ? ) It will also encourage Marines suiciding to respawn on team mates heads who are in a more favourable position. It will also encourage even more turtling , a squad of Marines will try break through to destroy the Kharaa while the rest defend the one base... they wont need forward bases of operation as they can spawn on each other on death... unless the Kharaa competely wipe out the whole squad time and time again.
Lets see...
UWE wants friends to play NS together, and not miss out on periods of action friends are involved in right ? Why arent the friends moving as a unit ? Why cant the unit wait for a friend to rejoin them should one die ? Why are they so far out that the friend cant safely re-join them, and not have a forward base of operations ?
... I am starting to think UWE have completely lost thier way and are scrambling to patch up a very leaky dam. I mean they havent added the rest of the basics in the game... the Exo (HG), Jet Pack or Onos, they havent completed the list of features they had on thier list yet they are running off on all sorts of tangents looking for 'cool' things. There isnt any focus on the core game anymore just...
It seems to me at least that these little ' features ' are designed to make new builds to keep players happy without actually progressing anymore... sort of going sideways a lot but not getting anywhere near the end goal. Hit a snag with the engine, and struggling to figure it out ? Hmmm ?
Not sure when this was changed but anyone still concerned might want to read the design doc again: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrBsO0m0Z4ilq0YsDEHJLQhBa6RrIjJIsckL2kE/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLCo8Z0J&pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrB...o8Z0J&pli=1</a>
See the line that's crossed off? That was the idea about spawning on top of or right next to your buddies. The current plan is to spawn players from the IP closest to the rest of their squad by default but also allow the player freedom of which IP to spawn at as well (like the eggs). This makes significantly more sense, and can't see any reason why it would change mechanics much since players still strictly spawn at an IP.
<!--quoteo(post=1873685:date=Sep 8 2011, 01:11 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Sep 8 2011, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure when this was changed but anyone still concerned might want to read the design doc again: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrBsO0m0Z4ilq0YsDEHJLQhBa6RrIjJIsckL2kE/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLCo8Z0J&pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrB...o8Z0J&pli=1</a>
See the line that's crossed off? That was the idea about spawning on top of or right next to your buddies. The current plan is to spawn players from the IP closest to the rest of their squad by default but also allow the player freedom of which IP to spawn at as well (like the eggs). This makes significantly more sense, and can't see any reason why it would change mechanics much since players still strictly spawn at an IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you interpret the squad spawning research?
I still understand that it somehow involves players getting teleported into squads. I'm not sure anymore though.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=The Log)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We’re nixing the Squad Gate and making it research instead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time. If you left-click, you can choose to spawn at that IP (without squad spawning). You can keep left-clicking to cycle through IPs. After cycling through, you can choose to spawn at your squad again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This will allow players to continue an assault as long as some squad mates are still alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1873682:date=Sep 8 2011, 08:53 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 8 2011, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment the game is unbalanced with the Fades having far too much power over Marines, this is why Marine gameplay seems slow and lethargic ... a single Fade can practically hold off a Marine squad. It isnt because the marines need another method to teleport to areas, and when ( if ) UWE can balance the Fade then the teleport feature will make the Marines too effective. Wouldnt the Jet Pack upgrade be more in tune with the NS style AND provide a means to get around faster ? Why not add that in first rather than a system that is game breaking and unintuitive ?
How will you cordinate a Kharaa defence when the enemy build up can change instantly ? Hey guys we got a single Marine with a Shotgun in xxxx, oh make that 2 Marines... one with Shotgun and a Flamer, ooops ... 3 now. It also makes it too easy to bring situational weapons to the front, die from a Hydra garden ? Respawn on your mates head with a GL in hand ( or will all the respawning Marines be LMG only ? ) It will also encourage Marines suiciding to respawn on team mates heads who are in a more favourable position. It will also encourage even more turtling , a squad of Marines will try break through to destroy the Kharaa while the rest defend the one base... they wont need forward bases of operation as they can spawn on each other on death... unless the Kharaa competely wipe out the whole squad time and time again.
Lets see...
UWE wants friends to play NS together, and not miss out on periods of action friends are involved in right ? Why arent the friends moving as a unit ? Why cant the unit wait for a friend to rejoin them should one die ? Why are they so far out that the friend cant safely re-join them, and not have a forward base of operations ?
... I am starting to think UWE have completely lost thier way and are scrambling to patch up a very leaky dam. I mean they havent added the rest of the basics in the game... the Exo (HG), Jet Pack or Onos, they havent completed the list of features they had on thier list yet they are running off on all sorts of tangents looking for 'cool' things. There isnt any focus on the core game anymore just...
It seems to me at least that these little ' features ' are designed to make new builds to keep players happy without actually progressing anymore... sort of going sideways a lot but not getting anywhere near the end goal. Hit a snag with the engine, and struggling to figure it out ? Hmmm ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I agree with some of the things you've said, there is no need to be so negative and harsh. Remember how many devs there actually are and the amount of hours they put in and how fast patches come out and how quickly game engines become outdated. There is no reason why UWE wouldn't want to release a full retail game asap while maintaining quality. Maybe their priorities should be to get tier 3 features in before balancing or maybe not. Regardless, they're a very talented, innovative and small group of amazing devs. Its much easier to criticize and judge, rather than do. UWE has not only been programming and balancing and bug fixing and mapping and etc. but they've been doing so, while listening to and taking many ideas put forth by the community that supports it. For them to juggle and integrate their ideas with those of the community on a constant basis is a massive balancing feat in my opinion and UWE is doing an amazing job at it. If their idea of squad spawning turns out to work and increase the gameplay quality, let it be, if not, I'm sure that UWE will once again listen to the community at large and remove the feature.
tl:dr Squad spawning hasn't been implemented or tested, give it a chance. If it doesn't work, then UWE will probably remove the feature or make it work. Raging isn't constructive.
Back to the point, I'm really excited to see this new squad system being implemented and hope that it really does increase the quality of gameplay. I wonder how they'll balance it. From what I understand, squad spawning is basically a research-able at the observatory which allows you to spawns from the IP closest to your squad with the least wait time or choose the IP you spawn from. Similar to how aliens will be able to choose the egg they spawn from. This doesn't seem like something that's going to RUIN the game as some people fear. If my understanding of the squad system is correct, I wonder if it even needs to be research-able? If it is, it would give marines a soft weapon in their arsenal for maintaining late game pushes and breaking stalemates.
The problem is if Squad spawning was implemented. Spawning at a players location instead of an IP or base (beacon). The rest of it i can wait and see, but squad spawning in the field would make me not want to play the game at all.
A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.
If its at an IP nearest to the rest of the squad I have no issue with that... thats fine. I was under the impression that it meant spawning at the location of your squadmates, which is what I object to.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1873697:date=Sep 8 2011, 01:59 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 8 2011, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If its at an IP nearest to the rest of the squad I have no issue with that... thats fine. I was under the impression that it meant spawning at the location of your squadmates, which is what I object to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I still understand the design log as if you're able to respawn WITH your squad, not just the nearest IP. This would really be an issue, as aliens won't really be able to counter this. They have to kill more marines, alot more. And I don't really get why this should be needed in any way. We have phase gates. And <b>FREE</b>(needs to be fixed, asap (15 team res, ala NS1)) mass teleport with the observatory. This basicly seems like a phase gate directly to your teammates, with no actual phase gate. And no means for the aliens to counter it(its not like they can kill the PG, they will have to kill all the marines). Well, I guess it will be removed again after a patch of "testing". Marines don't need <i>that</i> many ways of teleporting, excuse me but I really don't see the reason for this redundant upgrade, now that we have phase gates. And marines might end up being more mobile than aliens with this upgrade. Wasn't the aliens meant to be the ones with greatest mobility? Marines also have jetpacks coming.. Just sayin'
The term 'with your squad ' could also mean you dont respawn as soon as your timer is up, that you and your squad mates all spawn at the same time as a group. If say your whole squad got taken out, you would spawn one at a time as soon as the timer is up, if you research this squad spawn then your squad would all spawn at the same time ( not sure how the IP system would work that out ).
<!--quoteo(post=1873693:date=Sep 8 2011, 09:46 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 8 2011, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is if Squad spawning was implemented. Spawning at a players location instead of an IP or base (beacon). The rest of it i can wait and see, but squad spawning in the field would make me not want to play the game at all.
A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.
I hope this isnt the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope the game gets released before the engine becomes outdated too. =[ Come to think of it miss the 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 changed motto. But I still have faith in UWE, they brought us countless hours of entertainment from NS1, I'm sure they can do it again. Its just a matter of speeding things up I guess, even though I personally feel they work quite hard. Just because a patch is more bug fix related or implementing new gameplay mechanics doesn't mean its bad, I do think they should refocus on getting the game out quicker though. I can understand why they would want to add in more features and stuff, the gaming industry now is very competitive and relies very heavily on gimmicky gameplay elements which are... sadly... addicting though not necessarily of quality.
Its like comparing untalented T Pain and his lousy song, "The Best Love Song" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wmD3M-BfVo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wmD3M-BfVo</a> to an actually creative and talented musician like Andrew Bird and his song "Skin, Is My" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJcr1brx_Y&feature=relmfu" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJcr1brx_Y...;feature=relmfu</a>
Its an absolutely horrible and crappy song let alone "the best love song" but its all over the radio and has 10 million views on youtube compared to Andrew Bird's 250k views. Its autotuned to death, gimmicky, stupid but apparently tons of people find it catchy. HUGE difference between catchy and good.
That being said, NS2 needs to not only finish the game but also give it an image overhaul to even begin compete on the larger market. Like more cinematics, more lore, achievements, possible single player campaign expansion for aliens and/or marines and etc. etc. I know some of the stuff sounds gimmicky and diehard fans of NS1, especially those since v1.0 (like myself), might not like it but these are the kinds of things that the general audience will enjoy and consume. Its the whole reason behind talentless hacks making it big while true quality goes unnoticed, the problem lies in marketability and awareness. As it stands now, UWE doesn't do much advertising, as they're focusing so much on the programming the game itself but marketing will be just as important to the success of the game, as many many poor, linear games are quite popular due to FLASHINESS.
I hope that NS2 doesn't resort to this sort of thing but I wouldn't mind it too much if it did, for the sake of this small company that made at least one game that I spent my childhood and young adult life enjoying. Even now, NS1's gameplay mechanics are just as fun if not more fun and certainly more innovative than premium titles coming out now. If the company makes a breakthrough with NS2 and UWE is swimming in cash and becomes a competitive player in the gaming industry, imagine the kinds of titles they would release then!!!
ANYWAY, I still think we should give squad spawning a chance and have a bit more faith in UWE. GO UWE!!! <3
<!--quoteo(post=1873702:date=Sep 8 2011, 10:23 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 8 2011, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I still understand the design log as if you're able to respawn WITH your squad, not just the nearest IP. This would really be an issue, as aliens won't really be able to counter this. They have to kill more marines, alot more. And I don't really get why this should be needed in any way. We have phase gates. And <b>FREE</b>(needs to be fixed, asap (15 team res, ala NS1)) mass teleport with the observatory. This basicly seems like a phase gate directly to your teammates, with no actual phase gate. And no means for the aliens to counter it(its not like they can kill the PG, they will have to kill all the marines). Well, I guess it will be removed again after a patch of "testing". Marines don't need <i>that</i> many ways of teleporting, excuse me but I really don't see the reason for this redundant upgrade, now that we have phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking back on the log, that's still a possibility. I hope its the latter but if it isn't, I hope UWE either removes squad spawning or finds a way to properly balance it. Seeing as that may be somewhat far away, I don't think we should jump the gun too early. ALTHOUGH, UWE needs to pick up the pace a little. At least give us dynamic infestation or tier 3 or something. Maybe they're going to release those features all together and UWE is just trolling us. heh
But I agree, too many ways for marines to teleport. Jetpacks will increase their mobility a lot. I say keep the IP selection, game assign squads, squad nicknames, and spawning in the IP closest to your squad and remove squad spawning and implement jetpacks. Problem solved.
BUT "We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time. If you left-click, you can choose to spawn at that IP (without squad spawning). You can keep left-clicking to cycle through IPs. After cycling through, you can choose to spawn at your squad again."
Heres what I get from that... Even if you are able to spawn with your squad, your spawning will still be limited by the number of IP's you have and their rate of marine spawn-ins. So it might not be all that bad after balancing issues get worked out. Although I still strongly believe that if this is something that is truly not desired by the community, UWE will not keep it.
I really don't think you guys are properly interpreting the design log. I'm pretty sure it's saying that you will spawn WITH your squadmates, but "from" the nearest IP. In other words, they can keep the spawn timers the same and that IP will go into a cooldown but you will actually appear with them on the frontlines. This means that squad spawning and regular spawning occur on the same intervals that they do now, but you have the option to appear on the frontlines rather than back at base. Also I interpret this to mean that spawning with your squad will have you spawn immediately with only your rifle in hand. So the scenario where you somehow appear with a GL, shotgun, flamer, etc. isn't even possible.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.
<!--quoteo(post=1873708:date=Sep 8 2011, 10:44 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Sep 8 2011, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't think you guys are properly interpreting the design log. I'm pretty sure it's saying that you will spawn WITH your squadmates, but "from" the nearest IP. In other words, they can keep the spawn timers the same and that IP will go into a cooldown but you will actually appear with them on the frontlines. This means that squad spawning and regular spawning occur on the same intervals that they do now, but you have the option to appear on the frontlines rather than back at base. Also I interpret this to mean that spawning with your squad will have you spawn immediately with only your rifle in hand. So the scenario where you somehow appear with a GL, shotgun, flamer, etc. isn't even possible.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that too after rereading the design log a few times and I hope that's the case. +1 for clarity from Dev.
I hope the devs implement spawning with your squad in the field. The current system of always spawning in marine start always leads to non-stop stalemates where marines can't get out of base despite access to heavy weapons (the point being that marines are too easily boxed in by dieing).
It would also allow for an easier way to command where squads end up without a constant shower of medpacks to permit them to stay in an area for longer then 10 seconds. In the past a ninja-phasegate offered this in a limited sense, but as you can imagine that would require a minimal number of gate-exits and only offers a static deployment of all troops to one location (like a hive). Squad spawning however would allow the commander to set troops off to put pressure on specific rooms or areas of the map, far from marine start, without being so easily pushed back into marine start [and knocked out of their squads] due to respawning there.
If we look at Bad Company 2, squads do work there because no one wants to walk a million miles to an objective every time they spawn. It's far easier, and leads to teamwork, when you spawn on a teammate that is already nearby to a destination that you're interested in. This does lead to rambo players that will on occasion switch squads, sometimes as often as they die, but it's definitely an improvement to requiring every player that died + lost their weapon to be additionally punished by respawning them far from the action. This problem will only get worse as maps get larger.
<!--quoteo(post=1873708:date=Sep 8 2011, 03:44 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Sep 8 2011, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't think you guys are properly interpreting the design log. I'm pretty sure it's saying that you will spawn WITH your squadmates, but "from" the nearest IP. In other words, they can keep the spawn timers the same and that IP will go into a cooldown but you will actually appear with them on the frontlines. This means that squad spawning and regular spawning occur on the same intervals that they do now, but you have the option to appear on the frontlines rather than back at base. Also I interpret this to mean that spawning with your squad will have you spawn immediately with only your rifle in hand. So the scenario where you somehow appear with a GL, shotgun, flamer, etc. isn't even possible.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm still having trouble figuring out how it goes and how it's worth all the codework, testing and balancing that goes into it, but it's all good if the pull it off properly in some way.
However: <!--quoteo(post=1873693:date=Sep 8 2011, 02:46 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 8 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've also had enough of the back and forth indecisiveness. I really want to see a plan and progress towards the release. If the squad system is part of that plan, fine. But the last thing I want to see is some sketchy additional feature that "Isn't quite there yet" and gets added to the list of things that get revised some day in the future. In my eyes no squad system isn't going to save the game if the basics aren't feeling good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that),<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMGZORS spawning with your squad?!?!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which will allow players to spawn with their squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG you just confirmed my fear about spawning in the field WITH your squad! (though field wasnt mentioned)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG OMG with THEIR SQUAD... Forum rage ensues.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i didnt read.
I apologize to everyone for my over site and momentary lapse of cognitive skills. I was blinded by fear thinking this would be implemented in the game i have been waiting for for years now.
Here is the whole paragraph:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1873719:date=Sep 8 2011, 04:27 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 8 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What i didnt read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The way I understand, the quote refers to IPs still controlling the spawn queue. So, basically the IP with the least spawn queue is going to teleport you to the field where your squad is.
Some clarification would be sweet though, everyone seems to have their own interpretation of this.
If it does allow 'porting you straight to the front lines from the spawn queue it should probably be a temporary buff, one of those "commander spells" that the marine comm is supposed to have (and the alien comm not). Like, for 15 res, any marines that would have spawned in the next 10 seconds spawn near their squadmates.
<!--quoteo(post=1873721:date=Sep 8 2011, 03:37 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 8 2011, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way I understand, the quote refers to IPs still controlling the spawn queue. So, basically the IP with the least spawn queue is going to teleport you to the field where your squad is.
Some clarification would be sweet though, everyone seems to have their own interpretation of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, IPs will still control the spawn queue, even for squad spawning. Basically you will start spawning in briefly at the IP, like you normally would, but then it teleports you to your squad. We plan on implementing the ability to choose your IP, as well. It will automatically pick the one with the shortest wait time, but if you select a different one then the timer resets on the new one you've selected. There will also probably be an option on the screen to cancel spawning with your squad, say, if you want to buy weapons at the armory or something. Possibly choosing a different IP might cancel the squad spawning as well, not sure.
Why bother with IP's , just have everyone magically appear where they want...even better take out death, thats inconvieniant... I mean if I am busy killing a Hive with my pals and some inconsiderate alien kills me I'll miss the moment, and I'll be sad.
Oh, and this aiming lark is a pain too and makes me look silly when I play with my pals... cant we all have auto aimbots, and wallhacks too... need those as I dont want to checks for the aliens as that interferes with my watching the telly on the side as well.
bah...humbug. Call me when your heads back on straight and your back to making NS 2 , not CoDclone#435983. When you realise this idea is gamebreaking, and ruins the entire Kharaa vs Frontiersman combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1873733:date=Sep 8 2011, 10:50 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 8 2011, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but then it teleports you to your squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the love of NS no. Please say it isnt so. Why is this even needed. Dont sell out... please?
- Avoid to walk to possibly distant front. - Allow to regroup with your teammates faster.
Cons :
- Is redundant with phase gates and jetpacks. - Breaks space continuity (more than phase gates). - Possibly big implication for balance and map design. - Require work and possible bug source. - Do not make much sense physically.
- Avoid to walk to possibly distant front. - Allow to regroup with your teammates faster.
Cons :
- Is redundant with phase gates and jetpacks. - Breaks space continuity (more than phase gates). - Possibly big implication for balance and map design. - Require work and possible bug source. - Do not make much sense physically.
Depends :
- Diminish penalty for dying.
Anything else ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking from NS1 viewpoint the kind of 'free map reinforcing' takes away quite a lot of decisions where you buy map control with medpacks. It's simply not worth spending too much res on meds if you can simply teleport the team back for free (?). The aliens can't cut away reinforcements either.
It also forces a lot more straightforward approach; you just have to kill the whole group at once or they'll reinforce on the fly. You can't for example wear them down effectively with ranged attacks and small ambushes.
All in all I feel it dumbs down the one of the most unique and interesting areas of NS1 by a big amount. I don't know if there are some new mechanics and depth to be discovered in the new system, but I'm having hard time seeing it as interesting and challenging as NS1 system is.
Looking at it now, I can't say I'd like the idea the slightest bit unless they can somehow justify it with some interesting details. For a person who can play in squads in NS1 I can't see that many new possibilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1873753:date=Sep 8 2011, 12:43 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 8 2011, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looking from NS1 viewpoint the kind of 'free map reinforcing' takes away quite a lot of decisions where you buy map control with medpacks. It's simply not worth spending too much res on meds if you can simply teleport the team back for free (?). The aliens can't cut away reinforcements either.
It also forces a lot more straightforward approach; you just have to kill the whole group at once or they'll reinforce on the fly. You can't for example wear them down effectively with ranged attacks and small ambushes.
All in all I feel it dumbs down the one of the most unique and interesting areas of NS1 by a big amount. I don't know if there are some new mechanics and depth to be discovered in the new system, but I'm having hard time seeing it as interesting and challenging as NS1 system is.
Looking at it now, I can't say I'd like the idea the slightest bit unless they can somehow justify it with some interesting details. For a person who can play in squads in NS1 I can't see that many new possibilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Here is my squad implementation :
- Commander can group selected players using ctrl+number
- Commander can select players by pressing number
- Commander can go to players location by pressing number twice
- Optional : a little icon appears with binded stuff and number
That's all ! Just like sc2.
The maps in NS 2 are not so large that it takes forever to join up with your squad, I dont think you are ever more than 60 - 80 secs sprint away from any point in a NS 2 map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think the marines need some way to travel around the map quickly. Phase gates are required for marines to put any kind of pressure on the aliens. It just takes far too long to travel the map otherwise. This is just another way of travelling around the map quickly.
I think a lot of people are having a knee-jerk reaction to this idea. I think it's better to try and have an open mind and see how it works before dismissing it. I'm glad that UWE are willing to try new ideas. Yes, some won't work and will be removed (e.g. slow on hit) but experimenting with them is good as it may lead to 1 or 2 really awesome things.
IMO there really won't be much difference between squad spawning and phase gates. It's just a better way of getting marines into combat sooner.
With phase gates, if you leave them undefended for any time then 1 skulk can camp it and most likely kill any marines that are coming through. The only way to stop this is to place sentry guns and this only works because the aliens don't have enough ways of dealing with sentries. Once the aliens can destroy sentries as easily as marines can take out hydras then any good alien team will take out phase gates as soon as they are left undefended. This will work just the same as killing all the marines and stopping them from spawning on squad. The only difference will be that less time will be spent attacking buildings and more time attacking other players (which I consider a very good thing).
People are saying that this will encourage camping when you lose a member of your squad, but again that is no different than if you had a phase gate. You wait for your team mates before making a push (e.g. you "camp" in ventilation until you are ready to push on the hive in data core). The difference being again that it would encourage more player vs player combat. The aliens would be rewarded for taking out the entire marine squad and the game would encourage them to fight the marines rather than camping and letting them reinforce. It could actually create more clutch moments as 1 marine tries to defend against multiple aliens - if he manages to hold out then a team mate spawns in and the marines retain their positional advantage. To me that seems a lot more interesting than having to build up a base and slowly move forward from there.
As far as I've understood, right now multiple commanders are supposed to beneficial and allow new strategical options instead of just being a helping feature to avoid overloading the commander with tasks. On a team of 16 players using another commander is no biggie, on 6 players it's a huge deal.
Now the squads are starting to look a feature that works mostly on team sizes over 10 players. For example if you need a squad of 2 marines to spawn in the 3rd, you're pretty much forced to have squads of 3 to recover from casualties. There are only that many ways to organise less than 10 marines into squads of 3 and spread them around the map. And that's assuming everybody is playing nicely along instead of having their own plan with a bunch of friends automatically grouped up with them.
---
I can't say I'm too fond of the idea of them spending time in getting the squad spawning right either. It took a while to get the eggs spawn right in hives, which seems like a trivial task compared to this. Is there some good way to get marines spawn reliably into a constantly moving point in map? I could see some pretty awkward situations where marines spawn to block enemies, allies and/or lines of fire or end up getting stuck or isolated from the squad right away due to the architecture.
I just can't think of way to teleport marines into field without it leading to silly situations here and there, not at least without a very strict and restrictive set of rules to disallow any situation where the system might fall apart.
Maybe it'll be fail, maybe it'll be win. Either way, GO UWE!
It isnt because the marines need another method to teleport to areas, and when ( if ) UWE can balance the Fade then the teleport feature will make the Marines too effective.
Wouldnt the Jet Pack upgrade be more in tune with the NS style AND provide a means to get around faster ? Why not add that in first rather than a system that is game breaking and unintuitive ?
How will you cordinate a Kharaa defence when the enemy build up can change instantly ?
Hey guys we got a single Marine with a Shotgun in xxxx, oh make that 2 Marines... one with Shotgun and a Flamer, ooops ... 3 now.
It also makes it too easy to bring situational weapons to the front, die from a Hydra garden ? Respawn on your mates head with a GL in hand ( or will all the respawning Marines be LMG only ? )
It will also encourage Marines suiciding to respawn on team mates heads who are in a more favourable position.
It will also encourage even more turtling , a squad of Marines will try break through to destroy the Kharaa while the rest defend the one base... they wont need forward bases of operation as they can spawn on each other on death... unless the Kharaa competely wipe out the whole squad time and time again.
Lets see...
UWE wants friends to play NS together, and not miss out on periods of action friends are involved in right ?
Why arent the friends moving as a unit ?
Why cant the unit wait for a friend to rejoin them should one die ?
Why are they so far out that the friend cant safely re-join them, and not have a forward base of operations ?
... I am starting to think UWE have completely lost thier way and are scrambling to patch up a very leaky dam. I mean they havent added the rest of the basics in the game... the Exo (HG), Jet Pack or Onos, they havent completed the list of features they had on thier list yet they are running off on all sorts of tangents looking for 'cool' things. There isnt any focus on the core game anymore just...
It seems to me at least that these little ' features ' are designed to make new builds to keep players happy without actually progressing anymore... sort of going sideways a lot but not getting anywhere near the end goal.
Hit a snag with the engine, and struggling to figure it out ? Hmmm ?
See the line that's crossed off? That was the idea about spawning on top of or right next to your buddies. The current plan is to spawn players from the IP closest to the rest of their squad by default but also allow the player freedom of which IP to spawn at as well (like the eggs). This makes significantly more sense, and can't see any reason why it would change mechanics much since players still strictly spawn at an IP.
See the line that's crossed off? That was the idea about spawning on top of or right next to your buddies. The current plan is to spawn players from the IP closest to the rest of their squad by default but also allow the player freedom of which IP to spawn at as well (like the eggs). This makes significantly more sense, and can't see any reason why it would change mechanics much since players still strictly spawn at an IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you interpret the squad spawning research?
I still understand that it somehow involves players getting teleported into squads. I'm not sure anymore though.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=The Log)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We’re nixing the Squad Gate and making it research instead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time. If you left-click, you can choose to spawn at that IP (without squad spawning). You can keep left-clicking to cycle through IPs. After cycling through, you can choose to spawn at your squad again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This will allow players to continue an assault as long as some squad mates are still alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isnt because the marines need another method to teleport to areas, and when ( if ) UWE can balance the Fade then the teleport feature will make the Marines too effective.
Wouldnt the Jet Pack upgrade be more in tune with the NS style AND provide a means to get around faster ? Why not add that in first rather than a system that is game breaking and unintuitive ?
How will you cordinate a Kharaa defence when the enemy build up can change instantly ?
Hey guys we got a single Marine with a Shotgun in xxxx, oh make that 2 Marines... one with Shotgun and a Flamer, ooops ... 3 now.
It also makes it too easy to bring situational weapons to the front, die from a Hydra garden ? Respawn on your mates head with a GL in hand ( or will all the respawning Marines be LMG only ? )
It will also encourage Marines suiciding to respawn on team mates heads who are in a more favourable position.
It will also encourage even more turtling , a squad of Marines will try break through to destroy the Kharaa while the rest defend the one base... they wont need forward bases of operation as they can spawn on each other on death... unless the Kharaa competely wipe out the whole squad time and time again.
Lets see...
UWE wants friends to play NS together, and not miss out on periods of action friends are involved in right ?
Why arent the friends moving as a unit ?
Why cant the unit wait for a friend to rejoin them should one die ?
Why are they so far out that the friend cant safely re-join them, and not have a forward base of operations ?
... I am starting to think UWE have completely lost thier way and are scrambling to patch up a very leaky dam. I mean they havent added the rest of the basics in the game... the Exo (HG), Jet Pack or Onos, they havent completed the list of features they had on thier list yet they are running off on all sorts of tangents looking for 'cool' things. There isnt any focus on the core game anymore just...
It seems to me at least that these little ' features ' are designed to make new builds to keep players happy without actually progressing anymore... sort of going sideways a lot but not getting anywhere near the end goal.
Hit a snag with the engine, and struggling to figure it out ? Hmmm ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I agree with some of the things you've said, there is no need to be so negative and harsh.
Remember how many devs there actually are and the amount of hours they put in and how fast patches come out and how quickly game engines become outdated.
There is no reason why UWE wouldn't want to release a full retail game asap while maintaining quality.
Maybe their priorities should be to get tier 3 features in before balancing or maybe not. Regardless, they're a very talented, innovative and small group of amazing devs.
Its much easier to criticize and judge, rather than do. UWE has not only been programming and balancing and bug fixing and mapping and etc. but they've been doing so, while listening to and taking many ideas put forth by the community that supports it. For them to juggle and integrate their ideas with those of the community on a constant basis is a massive balancing feat in my opinion and UWE is doing an amazing job at it. If their idea of squad spawning turns out to work and increase the gameplay quality, let it be, if not, I'm sure that UWE will once again listen to the community at large and remove the feature.
tl:dr Squad spawning hasn't been implemented or tested, give it a chance. If it doesn't work, then UWE will probably remove the feature or make it work. Raging isn't constructive.
Back to the point, I'm really excited to see this new squad system being implemented and hope that it really does increase the quality of gameplay. I wonder how they'll balance it.
From what I understand, squad spawning is basically a research-able at the observatory which allows you to spawns from the IP closest to your squad with the least wait time or choose the IP you spawn from. Similar to how aliens will be able to choose the egg they spawn from. This doesn't seem like something that's going to RUIN the game as some people fear. If my understanding of the squad system is correct, I wonder if it even needs to be research-able? If it is, it would give marines a soft weapon in their arsenal for maintaining late game pushes and breaking stalemates.
A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.
I hope this isnt the case.
I was under the impression that it meant spawning at the location of your squadmates, which is what I object to.
Then I'll provide feedback.
If it makes it easier for marines to stick with each other I like it.
I was under the impression that it meant spawning at the location of your squadmates, which is what I object to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I still understand the design log as if you're able to respawn WITH your squad, not just the nearest IP.
This would really be an issue, as aliens won't really be able to counter this. They have to kill more marines, alot more.
And I don't really get why this should be needed in any way. We have phase gates. And <b>FREE</b>(needs to be fixed, asap (15 team res, ala NS1)) mass teleport with the observatory.
This basicly seems like a phase gate directly to your teammates, with no actual phase gate. And no means for the aliens to counter it(its not like they can kill the PG, they will have to kill all the marines).
Well, I guess it will be removed again after a patch of "testing". Marines don't need <i>that</i> many ways of teleporting, excuse me but I really don't see the reason for this redundant upgrade, now that we have phase gates.
And marines might end up being more mobile than aliens with this upgrade. Wasn't the aliens meant to be the ones with greatest mobility? Marines also have jetpacks coming.. Just sayin'
If say your whole squad got taken out, you would spawn one at a time as soon as the timer is up, if you research this squad spawn then your squad would all spawn at the same time ( not sure how the IP system would work that out ).
A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.
I hope this isnt the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope the game gets released before the engine becomes outdated too. =[
Come to think of it miss the 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 changed motto.
But I still have faith in UWE, they brought us countless hours of entertainment from NS1, I'm sure they can do it again. Its just a matter of speeding things up I guess, even though I personally feel they work quite hard. Just because a patch is more bug fix related or implementing new gameplay mechanics doesn't mean its bad, I do think they should refocus on getting the game out quicker though. I can understand why they would want to add in more features and stuff, the gaming industry now is very competitive and relies very heavily on gimmicky gameplay elements which are... sadly... addicting though not necessarily of quality.
Its like comparing untalented T Pain and his lousy song, "The Best Love Song" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wmD3M-BfVo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wmD3M-BfVo</a>
to an actually creative and talented musician like Andrew Bird and his song "Skin, Is My" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJcr1brx_Y&feature=relmfu" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJcr1brx_Y...;feature=relmfu</a>
Its an absolutely horrible and crappy song let alone "the best love song" but its all over the radio and has 10 million views on youtube compared to Andrew Bird's 250k views. Its autotuned to death, gimmicky, stupid but apparently tons of people find it catchy. HUGE difference between catchy and good.
That being said, NS2 needs to not only finish the game but also give it an image overhaul to even begin compete on the larger market. Like more cinematics, more lore, achievements, possible single player campaign expansion for aliens and/or marines and etc. etc.
I know some of the stuff sounds gimmicky and diehard fans of NS1, especially those since v1.0 (like myself), might not like it but these are the kinds of things that the general audience will enjoy and consume. Its the whole reason behind talentless hacks making it big while true quality goes unnoticed, the problem lies in marketability and awareness.
As it stands now, UWE doesn't do much advertising, as they're focusing so much on the programming the game itself but marketing will be just as important to the success of the game, as many many poor, linear games are quite popular due to FLASHINESS.
I hope that NS2 doesn't resort to this sort of thing but I wouldn't mind it too much if it did, for the sake of this small company that made at least one game that I spent my childhood and young adult life enjoying. Even now, NS1's gameplay mechanics are just as fun if not more fun and certainly more innovative than premium titles coming out now.
If the company makes a breakthrough with NS2 and UWE is swimming in cash and becomes a competitive player in the gaming industry, imagine the kinds of titles they would release then!!!
ANYWAY, I still think we should give squad spawning a chance and have a bit more faith in UWE. GO UWE!!! <3
<!--quoteo(post=1873702:date=Sep 8 2011, 10:23 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 8 2011, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I still understand the design log as if you're able to respawn WITH your squad, not just the nearest IP.
This would really be an issue, as aliens won't really be able to counter this. They have to kill more marines, alot more.
And I don't really get why this should be needed in any way. We have phase gates. And <b>FREE</b>(needs to be fixed, asap (15 team res, ala NS1)) mass teleport with the observatory.
This basicly seems like a phase gate directly to your teammates, with no actual phase gate. And no means for the aliens to counter it(its not like they can kill the PG, they will have to kill all the marines).
Well, I guess it will be removed again after a patch of "testing". Marines don't need <i>that</i> many ways of teleporting, excuse me but I really don't see the reason for this redundant upgrade, now that we have phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking back on the log, that's still a possibility. I hope its the latter but if it isn't, I hope UWE either removes squad spawning or finds a way to properly balance it. Seeing as that may be somewhat far away, I don't think we should jump the gun too early. ALTHOUGH, UWE needs to pick up the pace a little. At least give us dynamic infestation or tier 3 or something. Maybe they're going to release those features all together and UWE is just trolling us. heh
But I agree, too many ways for marines to teleport. Jetpacks will increase their mobility a lot. I say keep the IP selection, game assign squads, squad nicknames, and spawning in the IP closest to your squad and remove squad spawning and implement jetpacks. Problem solved.
BUT
"We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time. If you left-click, you can choose to spawn at that IP (without squad spawning). You can keep left-clicking to cycle through IPs. After cycling through, you can choose to spawn at your squad again."
Heres what I get from that... Even if you are able to spawn with your squad, your spawning will still be limited by the number of IP's you have and their rate of marine spawn-ins. So it might not be all that bad after balancing issues get worked out. Although I still strongly believe that if this is something that is truly not desired by the community, UWE will not keep it.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that too after rereading the design log a few times and I hope that's the case.
+1 for clarity from Dev.
It would also allow for an easier way to command where squads end up without a constant shower of medpacks to permit them to stay in an area for longer then 10 seconds. In the past a ninja-phasegate offered this in a limited sense, but as you can imagine that would require a minimal number of gate-exits and only offers a static deployment of all troops to one location (like a hive). Squad spawning however would allow the commander to set troops off to put pressure on specific rooms or areas of the map, far from marine start, without being so easily pushed back into marine start [and knocked out of their squads] due to respawning there.
If we look at Bad Company 2, squads do work there because no one wants to walk a million miles to an objective every time they spawn. It's far easier, and leads to teamwork, when you spawn on a teammate that is already nearby to a destination that you're interested in. This does lead to rambo players that will on occasion switch squads, sometimes as often as they die, but it's definitely an improvement to requiring every player that died + lost their weapon to be additionally punished by respawning them far from the action. This problem will only get worse as maps get larger.
Devs please correct me if I'm wrong but I see this as the only mechanic that makes sense based on what I've read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm still having trouble figuring out how it goes and how it's worth all the codework, testing and balancing that goes into it, but it's all good if the pull it off properly in some way.
However:
<!--quoteo(post=1873693:date=Sep 8 2011, 02:46 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 8 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of what people are saying is true also. It doesnt feel like there is progress being made towards a final product. There is always some new feature or idea. I just hope everything can be made and shipped out before the engine becomes too dated and pre-orders turn into refunds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've also had enough of the back and forth indecisiveness. I really want to see a plan and progress towards the release. If the squad system is part of that plan, fine. But the last thing I want to see is some sketchy additional feature that "Isn't quite there yet" and gets added to the list of things that get revised some day in the future. In my eyes no squad system isn't going to save the game if the basics aren't feeling good.
What i read:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that),<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMGZORS spawning with your squad?!?!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which will allow players to spawn with their squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG you just confirmed my fear about spawning in the field WITH your squad! (though field wasnt mentioned)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG OMG with THEIR SQUAD... Forum rage ensues.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i didnt read.
I apologize to everyone for my over site and momentary lapse of cognitive skills. I was blinded by fear thinking this would be implemented in the game i have been waiting for for years now.
Here is the whole paragraph:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will add new research tech on the Observatory (something sexier than “Squad spawningâ€, but something like that), which will allow players to spawn with their squad. Once researched, dead players will automatically default to spawning with their squad, via the Infantry Portal that has the least wait time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way I understand, the quote refers to IPs still controlling the spawn queue. So, basically the IP with the least spawn queue is going to teleport you to the field where your squad is.
Some clarification would be sweet though, everyone seems to have their own interpretation of this.
Like, for 15 res, any marines that would have spawned in the next 10 seconds spawn near their squadmates.
Some clarification would be sweet though, everyone seems to have their own interpretation of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, IPs will still control the spawn queue, even for squad spawning. Basically you will start spawning in briefly at the IP, like you normally would, but then it teleports you to your squad. We plan on implementing the ability to choose your IP, as well. It will automatically pick the one with the shortest wait time, but if you select a different one then the timer resets on the new one you've selected. There will also probably be an option on the screen to cancel spawning with your squad, say, if you want to buy weapons at the armory or something. Possibly choosing a different IP might cancel the squad spawning as well, not sure.
--Cory
Oh, and this aiming lark is a pain too and makes me look silly when I play with my pals... cant we all have auto aimbots, and wallhacks too... need those as I dont want to checks for the aliens as that interferes with my watching the telly on the side as well.
bah...humbug. Call me when your heads back on straight and your back to making NS 2 , not CoDclone#435983.
When you realise this idea is gamebreaking, and ruins the entire Kharaa vs Frontiersman combat.
For the love of NS no. Please say it isnt so. Why is this even needed. Dont sell out... please?
Something that sounds good on paper might be bad ingame but the other way around is also true.
- Avoid to walk to possibly distant front.
- Allow to regroup with your teammates faster.
Cons :
- Is redundant with phase gates and jetpacks.
- Breaks space continuity (more than phase gates).
- Possibly big implication for balance and map design.
- Require work and possible bug source.
- Do not make much sense physically.
Depends :
- Diminish penalty for dying.
Anything else ?
- Avoid to walk to possibly distant front.
- Allow to regroup with your teammates faster.
Cons :
- Is redundant with phase gates and jetpacks.
- Breaks space continuity (more than phase gates).
- Possibly big implication for balance and map design.
- Require work and possible bug source.
- Do not make much sense physically.
Depends :
- Diminish penalty for dying.
Anything else ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking from NS1 viewpoint the kind of 'free map reinforcing' takes away quite a lot of decisions where you buy map control with medpacks. It's simply not worth spending too much res on meds if you can simply teleport the team back for free (?). The aliens can't cut away reinforcements either.
It also forces a lot more straightforward approach; you just have to kill the whole group at once or they'll reinforce on the fly. You can't for example wear them down effectively with ranged attacks and small ambushes.
All in all I feel it dumbs down the one of the most unique and interesting areas of NS1 by a big amount. I don't know if there are some new mechanics and depth to be discovered in the new system, but I'm having hard time seeing it as interesting and challenging as NS1 system is.
Looking at it now, I can't say I'd like the idea the slightest bit unless they can somehow justify it with some interesting details. For a person who can play in squads in NS1 I can't see that many new possibilities.
It also forces a lot more straightforward approach; you just have to kill the whole group at once or they'll reinforce on the fly. You can't for example wear them down effectively with ranged attacks and small ambushes.
All in all I feel it dumbs down the one of the most unique and interesting areas of NS1 by a big amount. I don't know if there are some new mechanics and depth to be discovered in the new system, but I'm having hard time seeing it as interesting and challenging as NS1 system is.
Looking at it now, I can't say I'd like the idea the slightest bit unless they can somehow justify it with some interesting details. For a person who can play in squads in NS1 I can't see that many new possibilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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