Kick for turretspam
dePARA
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
On our server (HBZ) i kick for turretspam.
What is turretspam ?
3 well placed Turrets are ok, 4 as an exception.
With 5, we have an turretfarm and i warn the marinecom first time. Btw. i do that on marine-side too.
If the marinecom build another turretfarm or dont stop to enlarge the first one, i kick the marinecom.
why i do that ?
Some compare turrets with hydras (btw. i dont like exessive hdra-spam too). But 2 grenades and the hyragarden is history. Or an arc do the job.
On alienside you have only the gorge. But with phase gate and a mac repairing the turrets constantly you cannot kill a turretfarm.
i know, now there people talking about: "Hey its totally easy, you need 2 gorges , a fade and skulk to kill the turrets. With a good team, this is no problem"
It the same like the op-fade discussion in the past.
I set some turretrules on our server: no reaction. I beg the players to follow the rule: no reaction.
So, i kick after 1 warning. maybe 2.
This game need a turret restriction per region in my opinion.
What is turretspam ?
3 well placed Turrets are ok, 4 as an exception.
With 5, we have an turretfarm and i warn the marinecom first time. Btw. i do that on marine-side too.
If the marinecom build another turretfarm or dont stop to enlarge the first one, i kick the marinecom.
why i do that ?
Some compare turrets with hydras (btw. i dont like exessive hdra-spam too). But 2 grenades and the hyragarden is history. Or an arc do the job.
On alienside you have only the gorge. But with phase gate and a mac repairing the turrets constantly you cannot kill a turretfarm.
i know, now there people talking about: "Hey its totally easy, you need 2 gorges , a fade and skulk to kill the turrets. With a good team, this is no problem"
It the same like the op-fade discussion in the past.
I set some turretrules on our server: no reaction. I beg the players to follow the rule: no reaction.
So, i kick after 1 warning. maybe 2.
This game need a turret restriction per region in my opinion.
Comments
Great way to stifle finding bugs or creating innovative strategies.
Also if you build an Infantry portal I'll kick you.
This. Buff bile bomb!
Also, acid rocket.
Agreed. Flamethrower + Grenades rape all alien buildings. Until we get Onos, we have absolutely no viable way to counter mass turret.
Not to mention on most servers it will kick the ###### out of the server and make half the population leave because of lag.
Makes alot of sense, the frelge server got FF on (Their rules). Don't like the rules of the server? Then don't play on the server.
There is enough with turretspam on other servers to detect bugs or exploits in the BETA in my opinion.
Ofcourse the HBZ server is attractive to people due to it being powerfull and they
don't want special rules too be added. But it's their server... You can give them critisism but don't whine about it.
(Yes I like the added rule to the HBZ server)
Turret spam is one of the ugly aspects of NS2. There is nothing "creative" or "innovative" aliens can do to make fighting sentry spam more "enjoyable" for them. Marine structures already take a long time to destroy, and Sentry spam just make aliens spend more time attacking stationary non-player entities.
I can probably make a simple mod that limits static defenses in each room.
Great way to stifle finding bugs or creating innovative strategies.
Also if you build an Infantry portal I'll kick you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Playing without sentries is narrow minded? I would have thought the counter would be true. Learn to comm efficiently without wasting copious ammounts of res on turrets.
2) how is massing sentries 'innovative'?
3) Finding bugs and issues? Its pretty obvious massing sentries causes server performance to drop. Do you need to mass them every game in order to confirm this?
4) As stated elsewhere, limiting sentries is especially important in build 185 as it has new prediction/networking code where alot of prediction is now client side. Sentry farming leads to lower server ticks which increase the load on the client to predict leading to lower client ticks. In what way pray tell does sentry farming increase the level of fun for both teams when marines can't aim and aliens get bored. What pray tell does spamming sentry turrets achieve?
5) Infantry portal is strawman arguement. Totally irrelevant.
Marine vs khaara. not sentry vs server. That is why i will always support doing obs spam, but turret spam is just a no.
I truly hope they get the 3rd tier in ASAP as people are trying to balance the game as is.
Ideas with no regard to the 3rd tier are bad ideas.
Sentry spam isn't the problem. 2nd teir aliens not being able to deal with sentries is.
This can be solved by making turrets upgradeable(Higher hp/armor + "armor dps", but not higher "flesh dps" to avoid instagibbing skulks still lurking around in endgame).
That way you CAN limit them to 3-4 per room and they'd still be viable in the endgame without having to spam them.
I'm against limiting any structures, if you have the resources, you should be free to do what you want.
So, why does Starcraft 2 not have that problem? I'm not sure yet. But i think its partially because the defense structures (bunkers, spine crawlers, photon canons) have 3 downsides the ns2 defense structures don't have:
-they need space. Turrets and hydras don't need that much, you can build tons of them in a room.
-They have a limited range, because of the fact that they need space, there is a maximum amount of them that can shoot you
-They have a certain weakness. Spine crawlers can't do anything against air for example.
-You have to choose to spend your resources on static defense, or mobile units. In ns2 endgame, you don't have that choice.
So i'm note sure what the problem is. I think the last point is the biggest. Marines need something to spend their money on in the endgame. In ns1 it was weapons. I like the idea of personal weapons, so something new has to be found.
The Turret damage type could also be changed in a way that they are effective against skulks, but not against armored units (fades?).
Additionaly i would increase bilebomb damage by a lot.
+9999!
I hate turret spam also, 3 (max 4 for heliport or other wider places like xroads).
.. 16 turrets in base is overkill for players FPS (both side) and can't be beaten normally!
I was com about 2 hours long game, we got 5 turrets in total on map, but we use GL/FT and ARCs almost every push ... that was fun ^_^.
As good com I think you need to send Arcs first (they are rly slow), then when they are in half-way there use beacon and sen all marines to desired destination. Marines will catch ARCs and support them.
Or lower the turret ammo?
OMG! Its OVER 9000!
I don't think limits on turrets will solve something that is fundamentally broken.
I think there needs to be two types of defences.
One that is low cost, but is very weak and can be spammed.
One that is high cost, but very strong and used more for blocking paths with a 45 degree cone of fire but near instant kill.
That way, you can create structures that 'lightly' guard your base, whilst being able to create (maybe max 2/3) high power structures that give marines the tactical ability to path through maps. Blocking routes for aliens.
Of course limiting sentries won't solve something that's fundamentally broken, but server admins can't change the game code. Until there's an update that balances things out this is the best approach to avoid unnecessarily boring games. It's just a temporary measure.
I'm against limiting any structures, if you have the resources, you should be free to do what you want.
So, why does Starcraft 2 not have that problem? I'm not sure yet. But i think its partially because the defense structures (bunkers, spine crawlers, photon canons) have 3 downsides the ns2 defense structures don't have:
-they need space. Turrets and hydras don't need that much, you can build tons of them in a room.
-They have a limited range, because of the fact that they need space, there is a maximum amount of them that can shoot you
-They have a certain weakness. Spine crawlers can't do anything against air for example.
-You have to choose to spend your resources on static defense, or mobile units. In ns2 endgame, you don't have that choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those observations are correct. Each SC2 "turrets" cover only less than 20% the area of a base, but are more effective at defending choke points. They are also easily overwhelmed by masses of ground units.
There's another important difference between SC2 maps and NS2 maps. Although SC2 and NS2 maps have both easily defensible choke points, such as the two entrances to each room in NS2, the main difference is SC2 maps allow air drops that can circumvent most static defenses. That makes Onos mandatory for breaking Sentry fortified bases.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So i'm note sure what the problem is. I think the last point is the biggest. Marines need something to spend their money on in the endgame. In ns1 it was weapons. I like the idea of personal weapons, so something new has to be found.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the most major problem with the current resource model. Both teams need means of converting excess Team Resources into offensive and defensive strengths. Marines already have ARCs, Sentries, and MACs to boost their offense and defense. Aliens can spend TRes on Whips, Crags, and Shades, none of which can match the effectiveness of those Marine arsenals.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Turret damage type could also be changed in a way that they are effective against Skulks, but not against armored units (Fades?).
Additionally, I would increase bilebomb damage by a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries already do Light damage, which is relatively ineffective against armoured aliens. The trouble is, Sentries provide significant defensive advantage, due to their high damage, high health, and long range. Whereas Hydra and Whips can be blown apart in seconds.
I agree that Bilebomb damage is rather too low (200 DPS). It takes around 10 to 20 seconds to destroy a Marine structure on average. Whereas a Grenade Launcher can kill an alien structure in less than half the time.
Personally I have been warned with a kick twice and I feel these rules are done arbitrary.
The first instance I was warned for sentrygun spam and given a 'final' warning (it was my first and only warning) When I was using the correct number of sentry guns anyway!
The second time I got a first and 'final' warning for mac spam (I had a max of 7). The HBZ member admitted to me he just made up the rule of only having max 3 macs at once that moment. This combined with the final warning message gave me the feeling I could not even discuss it with him, actually I know for a fact I could not discuss it just do it or be kicked. It was right at the end of the game why the hell can I not use more macs?
It just does not give a nice feeling of playing on the server when the rules are done in this way. Also I have noticed after many games that HBZ members almost only ever play alien and you had allot of fun abusing fades attack when in blick in the past, a known bug. What about aliens rushing and attacking marine IP how is that fun or fair will we see people being kicked for that?
It is already very hard to get people to play marine commander all these on the fly rules and warnings will make it even harder to get people to try.
Remember the game is in beta so trying to force people to play the way you want outside of the way the game is built now is just going to be a frustrating experience. I mean people don't even know what spam is. I have been acussed many times of spam when ive had less than 8 sentry guns total on the whole map (when marine are winning and really have the total map) Ive been accused of sentry gun spam when I have had a total of 3 even! If you dont use sentry guns you get called a nade or flamer spammer. Will we have a limmit of 3 flamers on HBZ servers next?
I think I am even known on your server as a sentry gun spammer when I do my best to use as few as I can, Im known this way because I defend sentry gun use. A marine commander who does not use sentry guns at all is very prob going to lose and is not doing a good job at all IMOP.
That being said I do agree that aliens have no counter to sentry guns and that even 3-4 per room is enouth if used well, but we should just wait untill the devs fix this I think. You are feel to do what you like on your server, I really mean that but I am going to try and use other servers from now on so I dont feel like new and random rules are made up when aliens are loseing the game.
I'd like to see two videos, one featuring sentries vs Bile Bomb, the other featuring Hydras vs Grenades
The hydras and sentries must be in the same locations,and somewhat close to one another , maybe two more versions wit them kinda spaced out.
Once this is done I think then people will realize how bad it may be and how much different sentry spam is compared to hydra spam
Just a suggestion.
Right now noobcomm's have no qualms spamming every hallway of the map full of sentry guns resulting in frustrating gameplay on the alien team because there is really nothing they can do about it.
What about the resources spend per turret?
Once marines have all upgrades (they need defend just 3 RTs to upgrade everything in reasonable time) com can spend lot resources on turrets.What about don't give marines max count of turrets, but penalty to count of turrets ... dynamically increase cost of turrets on it's count on map.
i.e.:
1'st 5 turrets = 10 TRes each
6-10 turret = 15 TRes / turret
11-20 = 25 TRes / turret
21-50 = 50 TRes / turret
spawn is random, and as usual you are the nearest player to CC :)
His server his rules. I see what he's trying to achieve. I don't even entirely disagree. I just don't like bandaid "fixes" like these arbitrary rules. To me it is like seeing fades are overpowered and thus creating the rule that every fade exceeding a certain amount of kills must devolve back into skulk or be kicked.