Cory does not deserve that and neither does anyone else at UWE. I know nothing about coding, absolutely nothing about developing a game financed largely out of my own pocket. Regardless I respect everyone at UWE and all game developers in general. Bottom line is that criticism is all fine and good, without that they won't understand what their audience likes.
But telling people how to do their job when you don't even know what their job is. Thats not cool.
UWE has done a good job! When the game is in beta, the playerbase should not expect a smooth performance, and also expect "experimental" builds that eventually will foster better performance in the long run. UWE is doing a lot of dynamic stuff that is not common in many games, and at the same time keeping it easy for other people to make modifications and contribute. Interpreting always has a price, and I dont know if they already have a <a href="http://luajit.org/" target="_blank">JIT compiler</a> for Spark to improve gamecode performance where it is needed, but stuff like that takes time to "tune" etc. Just see the performance boost with JIT on Android from 2.1 to 2.2. And google has a lot more resources than UWE!
Anyway: Keep up the good work UWE! For people wanting to play a finished game and not help testing(and I'm probably in that group myself), there are a lot of other games to play these days. Just come back in a couple of builds or so...thats my 0.05$ at least.
<!--quoteo(post=1871882:date=Aug 29 2011, 05:19 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 29 2011, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yikes. I'd much rather put up with the collision issues than the massive FPS drop we see in 185. In 184 I was getting 60 FPS. It's now in the 30-40 FPS range. I have a high-end machine, but I know many that simply can't play now because their FPS is so low.
This is severely hurting the competitive NS2 scene, as it's basically unplayable due to low FPS now. Server performance is also down from 184.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What kind of 'competitive scene' starts competition when a game is still in Alpha/Beta? That's not a real soapbox you think you're standing on.
The change was necessary because hitting what you aim at is a basic requirement of a shooter. You need to start with a situation where you can actually hit stuff because that is the goal, from there you make your optimisations. Don't expect the game to be fit for competitive-standard games until release at the very earliest.
<!--quoteo(post=1872112:date=Aug 30 2011, 04:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 30 2011, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't call me out by name, say something completely unfounded, untrue, and insulting, and then say "don't take it personal". That does not make your thoughtless post any more acceptable. If you lack the understanding of what goes into game development, then ask questions respectfully, and we'll do our best to inform you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was gonna type something but I'll just +1 this. I mean, honestly.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872112:date=Aug 30 2011, 05:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 30 2011, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't call me out by name, say something completely unfounded, untrue, and insulting, and then say "don't take it personal". That does not make your thoughtless post any more acceptable. If you lack the understanding of what goes into game development, then ask questions respectfully, and we'll do our best to inform you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go ahead and explain for a long waited comstumer what's really going on in the development. Explain for me what you mean with "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". Because I've been testing from the very first alpha version and <b>yes</b> I've been seeing improvements for the time being. But the progress to get there has been a very long time. Which worries me about the release of the finished product. I got my finger crossed that it will be finished in 2012 summer, but the speed of which you mentioned "<b>a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>", is a very slow progress.
<!--quoteo(post=1872183:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:33 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Aug 31 2011, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go ahead and explain for a long waited comstumer what's really going on the in development. Explain for me what you mean with "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". Because I've been testing from the very first alpha version and <b>yes</b> I've been seeing improvements for the time being. But the progress to get there is a very long time. Which worries me about when NS2 will be finished. I got my finger crossed that it will be finished in 2012 summer, but the speed of "<b>a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>", which you mentioned is very very very slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't work in development do you? If you do, you'll know that major projects take either major time or major resources - and in some cases both. UWE as an independent developer does not have major resources so things take major time. The progress they've had so far is very impressive for such a small company. You try getting some of your friends together and make your own engine, then build a game based on that engine - and by following your own standards, in a shorter time than UWE has done so far. Could you do it? I personally doubt you'd make it. You are free to try and any healthy competition is welcome, but I could just save you the time and cost involved in keeping both you and your few friends fed and housed for the next few years while developing this engine and game - since more likely than not you'll end up with nothing compared to what we see as NS2 today.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872185:date=Aug 31 2011, 12:41 AM:name=Nixxen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nixxen @ Aug 31 2011, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't work in development do you? If you do, you'll know that major projects take either major time or major resources - and in some cases both. UWE as an independent developer does not have major resources so things take major time. The progress they've had so far is very impressive for such a small company. You try getting some of your friends together and make your own engine, then build a game based on that engine - and by following your own standards, in a shorter time than UWE has done so far. Could you do it? I personally doubt you'd make it. You are free to try and any healthy competition is welcome, but I could just save you the time and cost involved in keeping both you and your few friends fed and housed for the next few years while developing this engine and game - since more likely than not you'll end up with nothing compared to what we see as NS2 today.
M2c<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't get the point do you? My fault
I'm a costumer who have bought multiple copies of NS2 for me and my friends and I'm not now trying to say that I will request my money back.
What made me tired was when cory mentioned "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". It's not the first time he mentioned that.
What I've seen is progress going back and forward. So if you read in the previous post, I've now asked him about explaining for me. Because its a forum, people have right to say what they feel and to start debates. As long it's not racism, etc etc. Buy the way, my intension was not to be rude, even if it may sound so based on the reaction I've recieved.
By that he mean they sometimes have to take new approaches and attack a problem from a different angle. Some times this may put development back a patch of more, but will make it easier for them to reach beyond the point they were at before making the changes.
As an example(also related to the OP topic), the jerky spasm movement caused by the collision checking code in 184 where you would end up in the roof if several marines were running down a hallway together(for example). To fix this, they had to rewrite parts of the collision code, and in 185 it is mostly handled by the client(at least that's what I've gathered from the posts I've read) and, in turn, this causes lower FPS for each player on the server. Even lower for the ones with higher ping since they'll have to calculate more possible movements than people with less ping. The collision code itself was rewritten earlier when they moved away from the old navigation system and on to what it now uses - a mesh which makes it easier to navigate in an evolving world(such as placing a building or locking a door). These changes set the user experience back a few patches since every time you add something new there is bound to be problems or bugs that needs to be fixed. These bugs might not have shown up if these changes never happened, but we'd still be stuck with the old nav system.
In short, changes to how things work in the game(as in core features) will break some things. These things will be fixed, and once fixed you end up with a result that is better than if you never did the initial changes. Remember when macs would hug structures because their "waypoints" didn't know you built a structure there? When they suddenly flew out of the map and trashed the server tickrate? You don't see that very often these days do you? Sure there are some occasions where things "fly" out of the map, but no where near the same amount as earlier.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1872193:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:21 AM:name=Nixxen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nixxen @ Aug 31 2011, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By that he mean they sometimes have to take new approaches and attack a problem from a different angle. Some times this may put development back a patch of more, but will make it easier for them to reach beyond the point they were at before making the changes.
As an example(also related to the OP topic), the jerky spasm movement caused by the collision checking code in 184 where you would end up in the roof if several marines were running down a hallway together(for example). To fix this, they had to rewrite parts of the collision code, and in 185 it is mostly handled by the client(at least that's what I've gathered from the posts I've read) and, in turn, this causes lower FPS for each player on the server. Even lower for the ones with higher ping since they'll have to calculate more possible movements than people with less ping. The collision code itself was rewritten earlier when they moved away from the old navigation system and on to what it now uses - a mesh which makes it easier to navigate in an evolving world(such as placing a building or locking a door). These changes set the user experience back a few patches since every time you add something new there is bound to be problems or bugs that needs to be fixed. These bugs might not have shown up if these changes never happened, but we'd still be stuck with the old nav system.
In short, changes to how things work in the game(as in core features) will break some things. These things will be fixed, and once fixed you end up with a result that is better than if you never did the initial changes. Remember when macs would hug structures because their "waypoints" didn't know you built a structure there? When they suddenly flew out of the map and trashed the server tickrate? You don't see that very often these days do you? Sure there are some occasions where things "fly" out of the map, but no where near the same amount as earlier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870664:date=Aug 23 2011, 01:40 AM:name=Odda2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Odda2k @ Aug 23 2011, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is more of a CPU hog than a GPU hog. A fast CPU with a proper cooling and a mediocre GPU rig will give you a smoother experience than a mediocre CPU/cooling coupled with a beast GPU with proper cooling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh I hate when games do this. My laptop is stronger in GPU than CPU, and my old desktop is running a friggin P4. It's so much cheaper and easier to upgrade a GPU than a CPU, and most games seem to be GPU-heavy rather than CPU-heavy anyways. Hopefully by release the game will be much less CPU-intensive to the point where GPU matters more...
<!--quoteo(post=1872189:date=Aug 31 2011, 09:58 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Aug 31 2011, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really don't get the point do you? My fault
I'm a costumer who have bought multiple copies of NS2 for me and my friends and I'm not now trying to say that I will request my money back.
What made me tired was when cory mentioned "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". It's not the first time he mentioned that.
What I've seen is progress going back and forward. So if you read in the previous post, I've now asked him about explaining for me. Because its a forum, people have right to say what they feel and to start debates. As long it's not racism, etc etc. Buy the way, my intension was not to be rude, even if it may sound so based on the reaction I've recieved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good things take time. what is so hard to understand about this concept? The game has come leaps and bounds since the alpha build with wooden dummies too. And while I dont doubt UWE would be nice enough to spend the time to explain game development to you I personally wouldn't want them wasting the time doing so when they could be oh i dont know, working on ns2?
lol this is so funny the people that complain about fps drops i dont have the best rig in the world i have a gtx285 1gb and im not sure what the fps is but the game has never run smoother for me with this patch. guys should try running the game windowed at less than a 1600x1400 resolution and with steam overlay off im sure most people are pushing there resolution to as high as it will go this is a beta people and yes its not optimized for something that high unless you are running something like ns2hd. plus having the game windowed makes it so its less likely to crash your whole computer when it crashes cause of video problems. having the maximum resolution your videocard supports is just asking for problems as that will only work for really optimized games and if it does work good for you.
This is a beta people. Please try this stuff before whining any more. and yes i know you are complaining because you want this fixed.
when you complain about the fps please let us know what resolution you are running at!
<!--quoteo(post=1872293:date=Aug 31 2011, 10:54 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Aug 31 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1024*768 tried both windowed and fullscreen with no increase in framerate for either<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> is that the maximum resolution that either your monitor or video card support?
<!--quoteo(post=1872294:date=Aug 31 2011, 10:58 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Aug 31 2011, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the fps is now heavily dependent on 3 things:
number of entities close to you (40m or so) ping server tickrate
What is slow now is the prediction of other entities. This is affected by those 3 variables.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that has always been the case you forgot also client tickrate
<!--quoteo(post=1872321:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:12 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Sep 1 2011, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is that the maximum resolution that either your monitor or video card support?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No my monitors max ress is 1366*768 and it runs like a slide show on that
<!--quoteo(post=1872337:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:48 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The client's tick-rate IS the client's FPS, it's a synonym.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> gotta check that to see if they are accurate or exactly the same
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No my monitors max ress is 1366*768 and it runs like a slide show on that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> make sure you have the steam overlay turned off. also what kind of cpu you have?
Comments
But telling people how to do their job when you don't even know what their job is. Thats not cool.
Anywhays <3 you Cory :D Keep doing what you do ;)
Anyway: Keep up the good work UWE! For people wanting to play a finished game and not help testing(and I'm probably in that group myself), there are a lot of other games to play these days. Just come back in a couple of builds or so...thats my 0.05$ at least.
This is severely hurting the competitive NS2 scene, as it's basically unplayable due to low FPS now. Server performance is also down from 184.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What kind of 'competitive scene' starts competition when a game is still in Alpha/Beta? That's not a real soapbox you think you're standing on.
The change was necessary because hitting what you aim at is a basic requirement of a shooter. You need to start with a situation where you can actually hit stuff because that is the goal, from there you make your optimisations. Don't expect the game to be fit for competitive-standard games until release at the very earliest.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was gonna type something but I'll just +1 this. I mean, honestly.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go ahead and explain for a long waited comstumer what's really going on in the development. Explain for me what you mean with "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". Because I've been testing from the very first alpha version and <b>yes</b> I've been seeing improvements for the time being. But the progress to get there has been a very long time. Which worries me about the release of the finished product. I got my finger crossed that it will be finished in 2012 summer, but the speed of which you mentioned "<b>a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>", is a very slow progress.
You don't work in development do you?
If you do, you'll know that major projects take either major time or major resources - and in some cases both.
UWE as an independent developer does not have major resources so things take major time. The progress they've had so far is very impressive for such a small company.
You try getting some of your friends together and make your own engine, then build a game based on that engine - and by following your own standards, in a shorter time than UWE has done so far.
Could you do it?
I personally doubt you'd make it.
You are free to try and any healthy competition is welcome, but I could just save you the time and cost involved in keeping both you and your few friends fed and housed for the next few years while developing this engine and game - since more likely than not you'll end up with nothing compared to what we see as NS2 today.
M2c
If you do, you'll know that major projects take either major time or major resources - and in some cases both.
UWE as an independent developer does not have major resources so things take major time. The progress they've had so far is very impressive for such a small company.
You try getting some of your friends together and make your own engine, then build a game based on that engine - and by following your own standards, in a shorter time than UWE has done so far.
Could you do it?
I personally doubt you'd make it.
You are free to try and any healthy competition is welcome, but I could just save you the time and cost involved in keeping both you and your few friends fed and housed for the next few years while developing this engine and game - since more likely than not you'll end up with nothing compared to what we see as NS2 today.
M2c<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't get the point do you? My fault
I'm a costumer who have bought multiple copies of NS2 for me and my friends and I'm not now trying to say that I will request my money back.
What made me tired was when cory mentioned "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". It's not the first time he mentioned that.
What I've seen is progress going back and forward. So if you read in the previous post, I've now asked him about explaining for me. Because its a forum, people have right to say what they feel and to start debates. As long it's not racism, etc etc. Buy the way, my intension was not to be rude, even if it may sound so based on the reaction I've recieved.
As an example(also related to the OP topic), the jerky spasm movement caused by the collision checking code in 184 where you would end up in the roof if several marines were running down a hallway together(for example). To fix this, they had to rewrite parts of the collision code, and in 185 it is mostly handled by the client(at least that's what I've gathered from the posts I've read) and, in turn, this causes lower FPS for each player on the server. Even lower for the ones with higher ping since they'll have to calculate more possible movements than people with less ping.
The collision code itself was rewritten earlier when they moved away from the old navigation system and on to what it now uses - a mesh which makes it easier to navigate in an evolving world(such as placing a building or locking a door). These changes set the user experience back a few patches since every time you add something new there is bound to be problems or bugs that needs to be fixed. These bugs might not have shown up if these changes never happened, but we'd still be stuck with the old nav system.
In short, changes to how things work in the game(as in core features) will break some things. These things will be fixed, and once fixed you end up with a result that is better than if you never did the initial changes.
Remember when macs would hug structures because their "waypoints" didn't know you built a structure there? When they suddenly flew out of the map and trashed the server tickrate? You don't see that very often these days do you? Sure there are some occasions where things "fly" out of the map, but no where near the same amount as earlier.
As an example(also related to the OP topic), the jerky spasm movement caused by the collision checking code in 184 where you would end up in the roof if several marines were running down a hallway together(for example). To fix this, they had to rewrite parts of the collision code, and in 185 it is mostly handled by the client(at least that's what I've gathered from the posts I've read) and, in turn, this causes lower FPS for each player on the server. Even lower for the ones with higher ping since they'll have to calculate more possible movements than people with less ping.
The collision code itself was rewritten earlier when they moved away from the old navigation system and on to what it now uses - a mesh which makes it easier to navigate in an evolving world(such as placing a building or locking a door). These changes set the user experience back a few patches since every time you add something new there is bound to be problems or bugs that needs to be fixed. These bugs might not have shown up if these changes never happened, but we'd still be stuck with the old nav system.
In short, changes to how things work in the game(as in core features) will break some things. These things will be fixed, and once fixed you end up with a result that is better than if you never did the initial changes.
Remember when macs would hug structures because their "waypoints" didn't know you built a structure there? When they suddenly flew out of the map and trashed the server tickrate? You don't see that very often these days do you? Sure there are some occasions where things "fly" out of the map, but no where near the same amount as earlier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good answer, thanks. :)
Ugh I hate when games do this. My laptop is stronger in GPU than CPU, and my old desktop is running a friggin P4. It's so much cheaper and easier to upgrade a GPU than a CPU, and most games seem to be GPU-heavy rather than CPU-heavy anyways. Hopefully by release the game will be much less CPU-intensive to the point where GPU matters more...
I'm a costumer who have bought multiple copies of NS2 for me and my friends and I'm not now trying to say that I will request my money back.
What made me tired was when cory mentioned "<b>take a step back to take 2 steps forward</b>". It's not the first time he mentioned that.
What I've seen is progress going back and forward. So if you read in the previous post, I've now asked him about explaining for me. Because its a forum, people have right to say what they feel and to start debates. As long it's not racism, etc etc. Buy the way, my intension was not to be rude, even if it may sound so based on the reaction I've recieved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good things take time. what is so hard to understand about this concept? The game has come leaps and bounds since the alpha build with wooden dummies too. And while I dont doubt UWE would be nice enough to spend the time to explain game development to you I personally wouldn't want them wasting the time doing so when they could be oh i dont know, working on ns2?
This is a beta people. Please try this stuff before whining any more.
and yes i know you are complaining because you want this fixed.
when you complain about the fps please let us know what resolution you are running at!
number of entities close to you (40m or so)
ping
server tickrate
What is slow now is the prediction of other entities. This is affected by those 3 variables.
is that the maximum resolution that either your monitor or video card support?
number of entities close to you (40m or so)
ping
server tickrate
What is slow now is the prediction of other entities. This is affected by those 3 variables.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that has always been the case you forgot also client tickrate
No my monitors max ress is 1366*768 and it runs like a slide show on that
gotta check that to see if they are accurate or exactly the same
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No my monitors max ress is 1366*768 and it runs like a slide show on that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
make sure you have the steam overlay turned off.
also what kind of cpu you have?