Strong Points
Hugh
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">Great emerging play style</div>Hi everyone,
Most of you will already have subconciously realised that this has happened, and won't need it spelt out for you. I'm writing this down to spark discussion, and to acknowledge something that has happened to NS2 play.
Originally, back in the days of Build 150 - Build 170 (?) we had a marine tech tree dependent on the acqusition of Tech Points. Now, we have a marine tech tree more analogous to NS1, where the tech apogee can be achieved with a single base, albeit limited in location to a Tech Point. The alien team have returned to their NS1 roots as well, with a distributed tech tree requiring the acquisition of multiple Hives. This change has happened (One might say 'evolved!') over the course of many builds.
I think this is brilliant, for the following reasons.
1. Asymmetrical race play is inherently interesting and generally positive in multiplayer games
2. Rewards the construction of 'strong points' by the marine side, as they attempt to push on territory, creating the following fantastic gameplay experiences:
- Moving out of the 'primary base' as a squad to attempt to secure territority to establish a 'strong point.'
- Building the 'strong point' in the face of alien resistance
- Defending the 'strong point' against alien attack
- Pushing from the 'strong point' to achieve strategic objectives, such as killing Hives.
3. Gives the alien team mild default map control, creating a 'predatory' experience for aliens and a '######, I don't want to venture out of the primary base without my buddies' experience for the marines.
4. Encourages 'fluid' alien play, in keeping with their animalistic nature, by rewarding large scale territorial control
5. Centralises the marine play experience (Fighting as one of an elite, cohesive unit) and decentralises the alien gameplay experience (Fighting as one of a group of predators linked by the 'hive mind.')
There is no other reason for this post than to record and celebrate what I feel is a great gameplay development in NS2. Well done UWE!
What's everyones thoughts? Any other types of play this gradual change has resulted in?
Most of you will already have subconciously realised that this has happened, and won't need it spelt out for you. I'm writing this down to spark discussion, and to acknowledge something that has happened to NS2 play.
Originally, back in the days of Build 150 - Build 170 (?) we had a marine tech tree dependent on the acqusition of Tech Points. Now, we have a marine tech tree more analogous to NS1, where the tech apogee can be achieved with a single base, albeit limited in location to a Tech Point. The alien team have returned to their NS1 roots as well, with a distributed tech tree requiring the acquisition of multiple Hives. This change has happened (One might say 'evolved!') over the course of many builds.
I think this is brilliant, for the following reasons.
1. Asymmetrical race play is inherently interesting and generally positive in multiplayer games
2. Rewards the construction of 'strong points' by the marine side, as they attempt to push on territory, creating the following fantastic gameplay experiences:
- Moving out of the 'primary base' as a squad to attempt to secure territority to establish a 'strong point.'
- Building the 'strong point' in the face of alien resistance
- Defending the 'strong point' against alien attack
- Pushing from the 'strong point' to achieve strategic objectives, such as killing Hives.
3. Gives the alien team mild default map control, creating a 'predatory' experience for aliens and a '######, I don't want to venture out of the primary base without my buddies' experience for the marines.
4. Encourages 'fluid' alien play, in keeping with their animalistic nature, by rewarding large scale territorial control
5. Centralises the marine play experience (Fighting as one of an elite, cohesive unit) and decentralises the alien gameplay experience (Fighting as one of a group of predators linked by the 'hive mind.')
There is no other reason for this post than to record and celebrate what I feel is a great gameplay development in NS2. Well done UWE!
What's everyones thoughts? Any other types of play this gradual change has resulted in?
Comments
Due to the changes to marine gameplay I think there is more variation in games aswell, which is a good thing.
Marines aren't forced to blow their expansion budget at a tech point area anymore. Res nodes became more important. This leads to all kinds of strategies and different locations for strong points and thus to more differently developing games each round, which was one of many things that made ns1 one great.
I'm not sure if one can really avoid all the downsides of things that made ns1 great, but there is definitely room for improvement and adjustments and after all NS2 is not a exact copy of NS1. A few of these downsides could probably be fixed in ns1, if it was still worked on, so let's not get tired of trying out new stuff.
What is with the hate?
Every patch makes it similar to ns1 :) (never change a running system)
I've always wanted to say this, but i really hated back in the early days of the alpha when the marines unlocked grenade launchers and flame throwers (especially back when they were both awefully overpowered) with their second command station. I remember exploting the system myself, sneaking a second CC in rockdown in east wing tech point (before Gully was added to Rockdown). Nearly every marine commander back then who had played the game extensivly would simply put all the teams effort into building the CC, researching Command Facility, then recycling the new CC that was built. It made playing as the aliens feel more like trying to sustain an infestation, trying to prevent the marines from spreading and gettting their practically game winning tech (Grenade launchers that did no self damage, detonated on impact, damaged through walls). It made the marines feel like the infestation that had to be stopped early before it spread and gained strength, like a colony of ants in your home that you wanted to exterminate before the spread all over your house and its too late.
Now that Aliens now have superior endgame units, the game revolves around what it always should have, containing the preventing the spread of the alien infestation, namely; The second hive. Yes there are balance issues that need to be sorted out, but this fundamental concept really plays into the atmosphere that Natural selection should revolve around, as the aliens you must expand or die, and as the marines you must stop the aliens before they grow too strong and its too late.
My personal philosophy for how NS2 gameplay should be when all performance issues are fixed, when all ingame assets are completed, and the devs have the luxury of time to really develop the game mechanics is this. Game start, aliens and marines start with tier 1 technology (skulks & rifles). Alien tier technology would always be superior to the marine technology of the same tier.
Alien Tier 1 > Marine Tier 1
Alien Tier 2 > Marine Tier 2
Alien Tier 3 > Marine Tier 3
However the drawback is that in order to progress to the next tier the aliens have to secure and construct a new hive for each Tier. Marines can get all of their technology from one place, its only logical since the marines already have their technology, they just need time to bring it into the field. As a result there is a two sided tension, a economic race. Marines know that if they don't stop the aliens from attaining 3 hives, they WILL be outclassed even if they get their most power technology. Likewise, the aliens know if they don't secure hive locations and beat the marines in the race to reach their most power technology, they will be overwhelmed by the marines who will inevitably reach their highest technology eventually and when they do they will lock down the aliens to their most basic lifeforms and abilities.
This is in my mind how a typical NS2 would play out.
Part 1-
NS2 game start:
Marines possess rifles and shotguns
Aliens possess skulks, Gorges, and Lerks
==========================
Possible early game end scenarios.
==========================
Aliens successfully rush marine start and wipe them out. Early alien win.
Marines successfully shotgun rush Alien start, possible ARC support if commander invested in early robotics factory. Early marine win.
Part 2-
Neither team scores a decisive early game victory.
Marines advance to Tier 2 technology
Marines posses grenade launchers and Flame throwers
Aliens attempt to gain 2nd hive, would unlock Fades, second ability chamber and evolutionary upgrades.
==========================
Possible mid-game end scenarios
==========================
Aliens successfully build 2nd hive, roll out Fades who have 2 hives worth of upgrades. Mid-game Alien win.
Marines successfully prevent the 2nd hive. Roll out Flame thrower and Grenade launcher marines with ARC support. Mid-game Marine win.
Part 3-
After 2nd hive goes up neither marine nor alien team can score a real decisive victory.
Marine reach Tier 3
Marines posses Exosuits, Jetpacks, Heavy weapons and upgrades.
Aliens attempt to attain their third, final hive which would Unlock the Onos, and unlock all upgrades that the Alien side has to offer.
==========================
Possible late-game end scenarios.
==========================
Aliens successfully build their 3rd hive and subsequently roll out highly upgraded Onos's that rampages through marine defenses, and crushes all resistance.
Marines deny the 3rd hive to the aliens, and using Exosuit, Jetpack ,and Heavy weapon technology, brush aside Fades and all other technology that 2 hives offer.
Part 4- EndGame
Marines have failed to stop the aliens from attaining all 3 hives, Aliens gain all their special abilities.
Both sides have reached the limits in upgrades.
==========================
Possible End game scenarios.
==========================
Aliens using hordes of Onos's, Fades, and sheer power, mar away at marine defenses till they've gotten to the infantry portals.
Marines pull together, using teamwork and coordination, hold off alien attacks, manage to destroy a hive and push the aliens down a tier. Gaining the upperhand with superior firepower, push the aliens down from tier 2 to one single hive, and begin the siege to finally destroy the aliens once and for all.
Although these scenarios would describe the typical way matches would play out, what made NS1 so unique was how each round played out differently, and besides all the other things being carried over from NS1, this is the most important aspect that needs to be carried over. Wish the best of luck to the devs and hope to see NS2 become a great game.
Either way I friggin love this game!
+1 thank you for this :)
I like how NS2 is evolving, it's great <u>but</u> it could be better.
Until some months ago I always wanted ns2 to be some kind of updated ns1 because I liked NS1 that much (although I almost only remember the pre-3.0 times) and I didn't really think ns2 could ever be better....
However in the last few weeks/months I seriously started to love ns<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>2</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. The patches made it playable and I'm really starting to enjoy all the new aspects. The tech nodes, the infestation, alien commander etc... I even somehow regret that ns2 is coming closer to ns1. It was originally planned to make ns2 1/3 new, 1/3 improved and 1/3 old.... I think the "old" is a little overweight as it is now. I wouldn't mind some really wild changes and new mechanics.
Though i absolutely agree with you about asymmetry, map control/expansion and everything else but it is a little too much ns1 imo...
maybe it's just a phase ;)
I like how NS2 is evolving, it's great <u>but</u> it could be better.
Until some months ago I always wanted ns2 to be some kind of updated ns1 because I liked NS1 that much (although I almost only remember the pre-3.0 times) and I didn't really think ns2 could ever be better....
However in the last few weeks/months I seriously started to love ns<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>2</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. The patches made it playable and I'm really starting to enjoy all the new aspects. The tech nodes, the infestation, alien commander etc... I even somehow regret that ns2 is coming closer to ns1. It was originally planned to make ns2 1/3 new, 1/3 improved and 1/3 old.... I think the "old" is a little overweight as it is now. I wouldn't mind some really wild changes and new mechanics.
Though i absolutely agree with you about asymmetry, map control/expansion and everything else but it is a little too much ns1 imo...
maybe it's just a phase ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Female Marines, Additional Alien Class and a new powerful Marine weapon would be funnnnn :)
As they release more classes to get rid of the annoying stalemates that currently happen there will be a bit of an arms race as well....
One thing i'd like to see for NS2 after release is the introduction of some new marine / alien abilities and units to make the tech tree even wider and allow for even more strategies...
As they release more classes to get rid of the annoying stalemates that currently happen there will be a bit of an arms race as well....
One thing i'd like to see for NS2 after release is the introduction of some new marine / alien abilities and units to make the tech tree even wider and allow for even more strategies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this fully. I would really like to see Marines with special abilities assigned to the specific class. I don't want to compare TF2, but having a few different Marine class choices (some with more Health/Armor(slower), some with more ammo/additional damage, etc. etc.) would make the game more strategic in picking what your team needs and how to implement the Marine type. Alien's have this system, I guess the Frontiersmen are all a bunch of clones of each other... :P
This.
Also, while I do think NS2 is going in the right direction, it still needs quite a bit of work. Marines have a small (10-15 min) window before the 2nd hive/mass fades in which they can win. Afterwards, aliens can basically dominate the map and marines turtle in MS until they lose (which might not happen for another 30-45 min). Also, the res model is sorely broken, with aliens having too much res and marines having too little. I also think there is a strong tendency to 'revert to NS1' when making changes, regardless of how well those things would work for NS2.
Also, while I do think NS2 is going in the right direction, it still needs quite a bit of work. Marines have a small (10-15 min) window before the 2nd hive/mass fades in which they can win. Afterwards, aliens can basically dominate the map and marines turtle in MS until they lose (which might not happen for another 30-45 min). Also, the res model is sorely broken, with aliens having too much res and marines having too little. I also think there is a strong tendency to 'revert to NS1' when making changes, regardless of how well those things would work for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My thoughts exactly! There should be some mechanism that requires both teams to expand (other than simple res nodes).
Agreed. The only incentives to expand now are:
1) To get more resources -- which marines can do right outside their main base, capturing three nodes being enough to tech up.
2) To deny alien expansion -- unfortunately, there are usually 3 open tech locations and expanding to one of them does not prevent the other two.
3) To have forward attack bases -- but since all you need in this case is a power node/pack and a phase gate, that almost doesn't count.
So, unless the total number of tech points drops to 4 (as was common in NS1, thereby preventing some late-game alien upgrades), early/mid game marine expansion will become rare.
All this said, I still like the way NS2 is moving, and await future updates. So keep up the good work UW.
IMO psykoman (excuse the spelling) should remove the 4th hive from crossroads and put in a double RT location. It would make that spot much more interesting, since that hive generally sucks for aliens anyway.
Edit: In addition, Heliport should be made much safer similar to Data/Surface, or Data/Surface should be as open as Heliport. IMO it should be made more open due to how easy it is to just spam Hydras and defend the entrance/hive spot.
IMO psykoman (excuse the spelling) should remove the 4th hive from crossroads and put in a double RT location. It would make that spot much more interesting, since that hive generally sucks for aliens anyway.
Edit: In addition, Heliport should be made much safer similar to Data/Surface, or Data/Surface should be as open as Heliport. IMO it should be made more open due to how easy it is to just spam Hydras and defend the entrance/hive spot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So are you suggesting for marines to get a certain level of tech they need to hold at least X number of res nodes? Btw, good idea on the changes for Xroads.
No, I think tech should gradually "unlock" as you get more resources, just like NS1 (and pretty much how it is now). The more resource nodes you hold the faster you get resources, the faster you tech up. It ties to map control: Instead of forcing chokepoints/bases and stationary defenses at tech points, the map opens up more since it's more important to control smaller parts of the map. I would hate it if the game was fought on solely tech points since this would limit the variations of individual games.
Asymmetrical gameplay is also (in my opinion) far more interesting. It would make a bit of sense to homogenize how each race plays if there were say, three or four different races/sides in NS2 but since there are only two making it more asymmetrical is easier (and thus more fun for the players).
Edit: I also want to add that in the current build resource towers just aren't important enough. Shotguns are a trump-all weapon. Instead of being scarce like NS1, by spending 15 res (which is available from the get-go) you can unlock a jack-of-all-trades weapon for the entire team and for the entire game. Part of the problem is that it's so damn easy to hold ventilation/flight control because the aliens start from the same location every single game and have a much further distance to travel than say, any given hive on ns_tanith to the nearest marine nodes.
How can we fix this? Make the hive spawning random and rebalance the run distances between marine start and each of the hives. It would probably be too big of a change for Summit, but in the future I think it would be way better if the game was more dynamic with alien starting positions (again, just like NS1).
We're still very early in beta stages, and these are only two different maps. I think that it would be pretty easy to change the design of all future maps to encompass this model and change the current maps as well. After all, Summit is managed by a 3rd party which would mean that only Tram would need a slight redesign.
Completely agree. Would make Crossroads a complete battlezone where as now its usually the 3rd or 4th hive and just something to acquire when you have too much res.
But wasn't it a common problem that some start points were ultimately better/worse, so that the outcome of a match could be, if not decided, then at least influenced, by something outside the player's control?
Asymmetrical gameplay is also (in my opinion) far more interesting. It would make a bit of sense to homogenize how each race plays if there were say, three or four different races/sides in NS2 but since there are only two making it more asymmetrical is easier (and thus more fun for the players).
Edit: I also want to add that in the current build resource towers just aren't important enough. Shotguns are a trump-all weapon. Instead of being scarce like NS1, by spending 15 res (which is available from the get-go) you can unlock a jack-of-all-trades weapon for the entire team and for the entire game. Part of the problem is that it's so damn easy to hold ventilation/flight control because the aliens start from the same location every single game and have a much further distance to travel than say, any given hive on ns_tanith to the nearest marine nodes.
How can we fix this? Make the hive spawning random and rebalance the run distances between marine start and each of the hives. It would probably be too big of a change for Summit, but in the future I think it would be way better if the game was more dynamic with alien starting positions (again, just like NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree and i love this style of play. Marines in NS1 had enough incentive to expand by denying hive two but only had time to lock down one. It made early game random enough to be fun every time but static enough where strats could be developed for each hive spawn location. Plus each strat was good at delaying the aliens expansion, but they couldn't stop it. Go for one hive lock down (get it) and it would force aliens in an awkward position but not unrecoverable. Loved this!