<!--quoteo(post=1868347:date=Aug 11 2011, 12:47 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Aug 11 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if a unskilled player invests enough res that player can buy the ability to kill opponents irrespective of the opponents skill ? Thats what both of you are saying. In fact we should take control away from the players, and let the commanders just move us about as they wish as FPS skill doesnt count.
When you go Fade you are buying that forms abilities, not investing in free kills... if you cant use those abilities then yes you should die to a mere LMG user. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if a unskilled player buys a fade and have no clue how to use it, a good marine WILL kill him 1 on 1. I have taken a fade or two with only LMG, and some more with the shotgun, so I guess that makes the fade pretty balanced (I'm not that good of a marine player).
The Fade is not balanced but it's mostly to do with his Blink mechanics. I like how the Fade is actually blinking in and out of view, but there should be some changes to balance this.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.
<!--quoteo(post=1869979:date=Aug 19 2011, 01:18 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Aug 19 2011, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade is not balanced but it's mostly to do with his Blink mechanics. I like how the Fade is actually blinking in and out of view, but there should be some changes to balance this.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Initial cost so it's not a spam skill and more of a "pick when you're gonna phase in and out" would be nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1869979:date=Aug 19 2011, 01:18 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Aug 19 2011, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade is not balanced but it's mostly to do with his Blink mechanics. I like how the Fade is actually blinking in and out of view, but there should be some changes to balance this.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This again...
I will agree that the best current counter is a good squad of SG with FT.
Problem. Against a good fade 1+ marines <b>will</b> die. Which at first seems ok.. But a good fade isn't going to over stay it's welcome... it's in... off's a marine... out... if it's still healthy.. repeat...
Couple that with the usual game play out I see recently... Game starts marines try to lock down a few resources... get the base rolling... and find the inevitable hive drop in DC, Heli, or Cross (Summit)...
This little dance will go on for a while and either... A) Marines will keep the aliens at one hive and eventually crush them, usually because of poor alien organization and no one wants to com aliens (why?), or... B) Aliens get a second hive down.
Problem is that when the 2nd hive is placed all they have to do is hold the marines off until it completes, then every living Alien back peddles and evolves fade.
We know the counter to 1 fade is 3-4 marines SG/FT So the counter to 3+ simultaneous fades is... gg?
<!--quoteo(post=1870154:date=Aug 20 2011, 06:35 AM:name=PatriotBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PatriotBob @ Aug 20 2011, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We know the counter to 1 fade is 3-4 marines SG/FT So the counter to 3+ simultaneous fades is... gg?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft
i know these balance issue will get sorted out and i think they should, but im kind of enjoying the underdog feeling u have as a marine right now i notice a very different vibe playing as marine/alien , as a marine u feel alot of pressure to organize, get res, get a strategy going, and if u dont, u will die, it really forces the team to work together. but its not sustainable because as soon as there is any organization on the alien team u have no chance. on the alien team its like ur on holiday, u can wonder off where ever u like, if u see a squad of marines u can have them for lunch, mean while u have like 200 personal res so even if u die as a fade ull be bak in a minute . its kinda funny to watch marines freaking out when they see u as a fade, mean while ur like "so which one of u ordered the open heart surgery?"
I added a reply later to another thread that I think made a valid point... And that's that fades aren't necessarily overpowered... but just too accessible.
Having every player go fade on 2nd completion is too much for a marine team to handle. 3-4 Fades will thrash just about any group of marines if they're organized. It would be nice to see them do something to throttle the fade spawn a bit so we only see a few like 3 tops in a game at a time, as opposed to now where there's 3 in flight control and 2 harassing Data Core.
I suggested adding a cap of 1 per hive, but that seems kinda iffy. But something to that effect would help tremendously.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*Edited for horrid spelling.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
and decent turret net will keep fades out of your base because they can't kill a turret net before they are getting raped, a whole team of fades = stalemate
<!--quoteo(post=1870265:date=Aug 20 2011, 11:08 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Aug 20 2011, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and decent turret net will keep fades out of your base because they can't kill a turret net before they are getting raped, a whole team of fades = stalemate<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which brings us to the other problem, any base with 4+ well placed turrets and GL + FT done is almost unkillable for aliens. Weapons pickup makes sure marines always have the best weapons up, RFK that they'll be able to buy them if they manage to lose them, GL's kill hydras, FT's mess with all the alien classes (the only class which can munch turrets in a reasonable timespan is the skulk, but the slightest touch of flames means he will burn to death, getting behind one usually means losing 3/4 of your health and not killing it completely just means that a MAC will fix it in 5 seconds for free)
Sure, you could mention killing power in base, but any decent com will have a power pack covered by the turrets by that time and keep the turrets supplied with ammo and all buildings at full health with just 1 ninja MAC, the only valid strategy being to drop all hives and bring cysts into the marine base to keep the turrets busy while the aliens work on rines, obs, IPs and power pack.
<!--quoteo(post=1870265:date=Aug 20 2011, 05:08 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Aug 20 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and decent turret net will keep fades out of your base because they can't kill a turret net before they are getting raped, a whole team of fades = stalemate<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which will also = server lag.
I thought Flayra mentioned a Fade patch by the end of the week?
<!--quoteo(post=1870376:date=Aug 21 2011, 06:17 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 21 2011, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought Flayra mentioned a Fade patch by the end of the week?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guessing they ran into some unforeseen problems.
As for the fades per team thingie:
I suggest up to 3 fades or max ~16,6% or the total player count(when counting both teams) can go fades. Whichever is lowest. This will let medium sized games of 6v6 and 8v8 have 2 fades that can jerk about with the marines if they play well, but marines still have a chance to fight back. Larger than that will limit it to 3 fades regardless of player count.
It will also ensure that in a 3v3 match no more than 1 person can go fade, and in a 2v2 no player can go fade. The reason it's ~16,6% of total players and not ~33% of the team size is because in some odd occasion you end up with 3 aliens and 2 marines(3v2), and if the fade requirement was 33% of team size the aliens would be able to go fade with 1 person.
<!--quoteo(post=1868272:date=Aug 10 2011, 11:50 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Aug 10 2011, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For marines, while it's a difficult challenge, know that if they take that fade down, they got a <u>huge</u> victory.
Don't forget the RTS part of this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A "huge" victory?... more like a pointless one considering that killing a fast moving + agile + invisible attacker on territory which probably belonged to the marines does not win games. What it does is bleed the marines of res/time/health/ammo. It also makes no difference if the fade dies considering res-for-kills and the high likelyhood of encountering a new fade just around the corner.
A "huge victory" would be if a player could not go fade again for a large period of time, not only based on res, and if their was a limit for how many fades could be running around at any given time. Or if marine weapons were buffed so some sort of balance existed between fades and marines, where one marine with a flamethrower or grenade launcher for example could be as devastating as one fade is. Saying that the marines need to use teamwork is not the answer, because the aliens will just do the same, which unbalances the game. Perhaps if their was a limit for how many aliens that could fit in one room to block alien-teamwork? xD
<!--quoteo(post=1870391:date=Aug 21 2011, 01:23 PM:name=Odda2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Odda2k @ Aug 21 2011, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guessing they ran into some unforeseen problems.
As for the fades per team thingie:
I suggest up to 3 fades or max ~16,6% or the total player count(when counting both teams) can go fades. Whichever is lowest. This will let medium sized games of 6v6 and 8v8 have 2 fades that can jerk about with the marines if they play well, but marines still have a chance to fight back. Larger than that will limit it to 3 fades regardless of player count.
It will also ensure that in a 3v3 match no more than 1 person can go fade, and in a 2v2 no player can go fade. The reason it's ~16,6% of total players and not ~33% of the team size is because in some odd occasion you end up with 3 aliens and 2 marines(3v2), and if the fade requirement was 33% of team size the aliens would be able to go fade with 1 person.
Edit: Math derp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I highly doubt they are going to put time into creating a limit system (which didn't even exist in NS1 [there was a server mod that did this however, UWE did not create it]) for the class types. I think their approach will be tweaking what they currently have to make it work. They have a lot more on their plate instead of creating a class limit system...
<!--quoteo(post=1870369:date=Aug 21 2011, 11:36 AM:name=Vic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vic @ Aug 21 2011, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which brings us to the other problem, any base with 4+ well placed turrets and GL + FT done is almost unkillable for aliens. Weapons pickup makes sure marines always have the best weapons up, RFK that they'll be able to buy them if they manage to lose them, GL's kill hydras, FT's mess with all the alien classes (the only class which can munch turrets in a reasonable timespan is the skulk, but the slightest touch of flames means he will burn to death, getting behind one usually means losing 3/4 of your health and not killing it completely just means that a MAC will fix it in 5 seconds for free)
Sure, you could mention killing power in base, but any decent com will have a power pack covered by the turrets by that time and keep the turrets supplied with ammo and all buildings at full health with just 1 ninja MAC, the only valid strategy being to drop all hives and bring cysts into the marine base to keep the turrets busy while the aliens work on rines, obs, IPs and power pack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Capping a class is not a viable option. Please, show me a game that caps player class (as opposed to <i>character</i>) and is <u>popular</u>.
Capping a class is a lazy way out of admitting your design is flawed. UWE have plenty of tools at their disposal to balance the Fade short of making it an <i>endangered species</i>.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1870424:date=Aug 21 2011, 03:50 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Aug 21 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Capping a class is not a viable option. Please, show me a game that caps player class (as opposed to <i>character</i>) and is <u>popular</u>.
Capping a class is a lazy way out of admitting your design is flawed. UWE have plenty of tools at their disposal to balance the Fade short of making it an <i>endangered species</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if it falls under popular, but Insurgency mod did this. Though, part of it was likely for realism aspects.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
I think the real problem of fades is "panic blinking when close to death". if you take away this option from the fade, you can maintain his agility but make him a more skill dependant class, which also has it's limits (it currently has not really a limit, except of facing a FT guy and being out of energy)
<!--quoteo(post=1868469:date=Aug 12 2011, 01:17 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Aug 12 2011, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best counter against a Fade are 3 Marines 1 Flamer 1SG and 1 GL (Gl btw us the best way killing a Fade.
Let the SG,Flamer and LMG doing damage at a Fade and when he wants to Flee Spam some Nades in that direction he blinked. Really GL is tge best counter because of it high DMG and AOE, will mean you don't have to Aim at the Fade but with 50% chance you will hit him!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not if he is blinking during the explosion... /uwe fail
<!--quoteo(post=1870265:date=Aug 20 2011, 10:08 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Aug 20 2011, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and decent turret net will keep fades out of your base because they can't kill a turret net before they are getting raped, a whole team of fades = stalemate<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>A</b> fade can't kill turrets very well.
A <b>team</b> of fades can kill more or less anything, not as efficiently as a team of fades -2 who are gorges, but half a dozen fades will murder anything they come across, turrets are pretty bad without marine backup, and half a dozen fades would mean very little chance of marine backup.
To an extent they lose efficiency in groups due to marines having lots of spray weapons like the GL, FT, and SG, but that's still a tonne of fast moving, high damage hitpoints you have to get rid of in order to keep the turrets alive.
Even a fully fortified marine start can't hold out indefinitely against three or so fades, even with the entire marine team defending it, if the entire team went fade (which actually doesn't happen often, not sure why) then nothing would stop them.
<!--quoteo(post=1870442:date=Aug 22 2011, 12:28 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 22 2011, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if it falls under popular, but Insurgency mod did this. Though, part of it was likely for realism aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah realism probably has a big part to play, but you can make balance work within a realistic theatre.
You could design your game so the class has obvious exploits. E.g. for the 'heavy gunner' class in other games this is usually movement speed, setup time, spin-up time, setup state (zero mobility, reduced arc of fire), turning speed, faster accuracy falloff over time, etc.
Failing that, for the example of the RPG in a game using a realistic damage system, make it an object one person (perhaps per team) can pick up and give it extremely limited ammo. This way it's a valuable option that any class can take and in doing so they risk having only a sidearm to fall back on if they don't make their shots count. You could either put this in the spawn, or you could have only one or two dotted around the map, but in the open so picking it up is a risk in itself.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1870603:date=Aug 22 2011, 01:30 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Aug 22 2011, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah realism probably has a big part to play, but you can make balance work within a realistic theatre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.....but not in the way you're thinking. They had to use class/weapon number restrictions because they we're trying to imitate modern weaponry which can be very op from a gaming perspective. Another way they balanced was by map design, such that the side with the very good weapons started in a poor tactical position.
Personally, I think have a good ol' fashioned RTS supply limit could work in NS2. Each alien class/marine weapon costs supply (higher tier = cost more supply) and each captured tech node increases the supply limit. It would help limit fade/lerk/ft/gl spam, but be more flexible that a hard cap.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i think this supply cap / limit is already given by the number of players on the server. i have no problem fighting 10 onos / fades when my team has as well 10 exosuits / JPs :D that's more a matter of finding the right balance to make such games work
<!--quoteo(post=1870617:date=Aug 22 2011, 09:05 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 22 2011, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes.....but not in the way you're thinking. They had to use class/weapon number restrictions because they we're trying to imitate modern weaponry which can be very op from a gaming perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I fully understand why they decided to limit the number of those weapons. What I'm saying is there are better ways to limit them, even within the constraints of a realism mod.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think have a good ol' fashioned RTS supply limit could work in NS2. Each alien class/marine weapon costs supply (higher tier = cost more supply) and each captured tech node increases the supply limit. It would help limit fade/lerk/ft/gl spam, but be more flexible that a hard cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Supply limits only work if one person is in control of the economy. In NS2 there is the Commander economy and individual economies. Just imagine that a player who is bad/AFK with a Heavy Weapon is gimping your economy just because they wanted a better gun (a natural desire). That's not good multiplayer design.
<!--quoteo(post=1869979:date=Aug 19 2011, 08:18 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Aug 19 2011, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade is not balanced but it's mostly to do with his Blink mechanics. I like how the Fade is actually blinking in and out of view, but there should be some changes to balance this.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Unknown Worlds Entertainment)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown Worlds Entertainment)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Balance</b>
<b>Update:</b> Fade tuning to fit him more to character (harassment, surgical striker) while making him feel more responsive to use, and less of a tank. Bumped his acceleration while ethereal. Dropped health from 300 to 200. Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally. Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures. Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Win. Can't wait to try out the new Fade.
Comments
In fact we should take control away from the players, and let the commanders just move us about as they wish as FPS skill doesnt count.
When you go Fade you are buying that forms abilities, not investing in free kills... if you cant use those abilities then yes you should die to a mere LMG user.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if a unskilled player buys a fade and have no clue how to use it, a good marine WILL kill him 1 on 1.
I have taken a fade or two with only LMG, and some more with the shotgun, so I guess that makes the fade
pretty balanced (I'm not that good of a marine player).
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Initial cost so it's not a spam skill and more of a "pick when you're gonna phase in and out" would be nice.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This again...
I will agree that the best current counter is a good squad of SG with FT.
Problem. Against a good fade 1+ marines <b>will</b> die. Which at first seems ok.. But a good fade isn't going to over stay it's welcome... it's in... off's a marine... out... if it's still healthy.. repeat...
Couple that with the usual game play out I see recently... Game starts marines try to lock down a few resources... get the base rolling... and find the inevitable hive drop in DC, Heli, or Cross (Summit)...
This little dance will go on for a while and either...
A) Marines will keep the aliens at one hive and eventually crush them, usually because of poor alien organization and no one wants to com aliens (why?), or...
B) Aliens get a second hive down.
Problem is that when the 2nd hive is placed all they have to do is hold the marines off until it completes, then every living Alien back peddles and evolves fade.
We know the counter to 1 fade is 3-4 marines SG/FT
So the counter to 3+ simultaneous fades is... gg?
So the counter to 3+ simultaneous fades is... gg?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft
i know these balance issue will get sorted out and i think they should, but im kind of enjoying the underdog feeling u have as a marine right now
i notice a very different vibe playing as marine/alien , as a marine u feel alot of pressure to organize, get res, get a strategy going, and if u dont, u will die, it really forces the team to work together. but its not sustainable because as soon as there is any organization on the alien team u have no chance.
on the alien team its like ur on holiday, u can wonder off where ever u like, if u see a squad of marines u can have them for lunch, mean while u have like 200 personal res so even if u die as a fade ull be bak in a minute . its kinda funny to watch marines freaking out when they see u as a fade, mean while ur like "so which one of u ordered the open heart surgery?"
And that's that fades aren't necessarily overpowered... but just too accessible.
Having every player go fade on 2nd completion is too much for a marine team to handle. 3-4 Fades will thrash just about any group of marines if they're organized. It would be nice to see them do something to throttle the fade spawn a bit so we only see a few like 3 tops in a game at a time, as opposed to now where there's 3 in flight control and 2 harassing Data Core.
I suggested adding a cap of 1 per hive, but that seems kinda iffy. But something to that effect would help tremendously.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*Edited for horrid spelling.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Which brings us to the other problem, any base with 4+ well placed turrets and GL + FT done is almost unkillable for aliens. Weapons pickup makes sure marines always have the best weapons up, RFK that they'll be able to buy them if they manage to lose them, GL's kill hydras, FT's mess with all the alien classes (the only class which can munch turrets in a reasonable timespan is the skulk, but the slightest touch of flames means he will burn to death, getting behind one usually means losing 3/4 of your health and not killing it completely just means that a MAC will fix it in 5 seconds for free)
Sure, you could mention killing power in base, but any decent com will have a power pack covered by the turrets by that time and keep the turrets supplied with ammo and all buildings at full health with just 1 ninja MAC, the only valid strategy being to drop all hives and bring cysts into the marine base to keep the turrets busy while the aliens work on rines, obs, IPs and power pack.
Which will also = server lag.
I thought Flayra mentioned a Fade patch by the end of the week?
Guessing they ran into some unforeseen problems.
As for the fades per team thingie:
I suggest up to 3 fades or max ~16,6% or the total player count(when counting both teams) can go fades. Whichever is lowest.
This will let medium sized games of 6v6 and 8v8 have 2 fades that can jerk about with the marines if they play well, but marines still have a chance to fight back.
Larger than that will limit it to 3 fades regardless of player count.
It will also ensure that in a 3v3 match no more than 1 person can go fade, and in a 2v2 no player can go fade.
The reason it's ~16,6% of total players and not ~33% of the team size is because in some odd occasion you end up with 3 aliens and 2 marines(3v2), and if the fade requirement was 33% of team size the aliens would be able to go fade with 1 person.
Edit: Math derp.
Don't forget the RTS part of this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A "huge" victory?... more like a pointless one considering that killing a fast moving + agile + invisible attacker on territory which probably belonged to the marines does not win games. What it does is bleed the marines of res/time/health/ammo. It also makes no difference if the fade dies considering res-for-kills and the high likelyhood of encountering a new fade just around the corner.
A "huge victory" would be if a player could not go fade again for a large period of time, not only based on res, and if their was a limit for how many fades could be running around at any given time. Or if marine weapons were buffed so some sort of balance existed between fades and marines, where one marine with a flamethrower or grenade launcher for example could be as devastating as one fade is. Saying that the marines need to use teamwork is not the answer, because the aliens will just do the same, which unbalances the game. Perhaps if their was a limit for how many aliens that could fit in one room to block alien-teamwork? xD
As for the fades per team thingie:
I suggest up to 3 fades or max ~16,6% or the total player count(when counting both teams) can go fades. Whichever is lowest.
This will let medium sized games of 6v6 and 8v8 have 2 fades that can jerk about with the marines if they play well, but marines still have a chance to fight back.
Larger than that will limit it to 3 fades regardless of player count.
It will also ensure that in a 3v3 match no more than 1 person can go fade, and in a 2v2 no player can go fade.
The reason it's ~16,6% of total players and not ~33% of the team size is because in some odd occasion you end up with 3 aliens and 2 marines(3v2), and if the fade requirement was 33% of team size the aliens would be able to go fade with 1 person.
Edit: Math derp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highly doubt they are going to put time into creating a limit system (which didn't even exist in NS1 [there was a server mod that did this however, UWE did not create it]) for the class types. I think their approach will be tweaking what they currently have to make it work. They have a lot more on their plate instead of creating a class limit system...
Sure, you could mention killing power in base, but any decent com will have a power pack covered by the turrets by that time and keep the turrets supplied with ammo and all buildings at full health with just 1 ninja MAC, the only valid strategy being to drop all hives and bring cysts into the marine base to keep the turrets busy while the aliens work on rines, obs, IPs and power pack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget about bile bombs
Capping a class is a lazy way out of admitting your design is flawed. UWE have plenty of tools at their disposal to balance the Fade short of making it an <i>endangered species</i>.
Capping a class is a lazy way out of admitting your design is flawed. UWE have plenty of tools at their disposal to balance the Fade short of making it an <i>endangered species</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if it falls under popular, but Insurgency mod did this. Though, part of it was likely for realism aspects.
Let the SG,Flamer and LMG doing damage at a Fade and when he wants to Flee Spam some Nades in that direction he blinked. Really GL is tge best counter because of it high DMG and AOE, will mean you don't have to Aim at the Fade but with 50% chance you will hit him!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if he is blinking during the explosion...
/uwe fail
:)
<b>A</b> fade can't kill turrets very well.
A <b>team</b> of fades can kill more or less anything, not as efficiently as a team of fades -2 who are gorges, but half a dozen fades will murder anything they come across, turrets are pretty bad without marine backup, and half a dozen fades would mean very little chance of marine backup.
To an extent they lose efficiency in groups due to marines having lots of spray weapons like the GL, FT, and SG, but that's still a tonne of fast moving, high damage hitpoints you have to get rid of in order to keep the turrets alive.
Even a fully fortified marine start can't hold out indefinitely against three or so fades, even with the entire marine team defending it, if the entire team went fade (which actually doesn't happen often, not sure why) then nothing would stop them.
You could design your game so the class has obvious exploits. E.g. for the 'heavy gunner' class in other games this is usually movement speed, setup time, spin-up time, setup state (zero mobility, reduced arc of fire), turning speed, faster accuracy falloff over time, etc.
Failing that, for the example of the RPG in a game using a realistic damage system, make it an object one person (perhaps per team) can pick up and give it extremely limited ammo. This way it's a valuable option that any class can take and in doing so they risk having only a sidearm to fall back on if they don't make their shots count. You could either put this in the spawn, or you could have only one or two dotted around the map, but in the open so picking it up is a risk in itself.
Yes.....but not in the way you're thinking. They had to use class/weapon number restrictions because they we're trying to imitate modern weaponry which can be very op from a gaming perspective. Another way they balanced was by map design, such that the side with the very good weapons started in a poor tactical position.
Personally, I think have a good ol' fashioned RTS supply limit could work in NS2. Each alien class/marine weapon costs supply (higher tier = cost more supply) and each captured tech node increases the supply limit. It would help limit fade/lerk/ft/gl spam, but be more flexible that a hard cap.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think have a good ol' fashioned RTS supply limit could work in NS2. Each alien class/marine weapon costs supply (higher tier = cost more supply) and each captured tech node increases the supply limit. It would help limit fade/lerk/ft/gl spam, but be more flexible that a hard cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Supply limits only work if one person is in control of the economy. In NS2 there is the Commander economy and individual economies. Just imagine that a player who is bad/AFK with a Heavy Weapon is gimping your economy just because they wanted a better gun (a natural desire). That's not good multiplayer design.
The initial adrenaline cost for entering Blink is too low. Currently on 0 adrenaline you can spam Blink to make sure you take only half damage when retreating, even if you aren't retreating all that fast. If the adrenaline cost for initiating a Blink were higher, the class would immediately require more adrenaline management and therefore more skill. If the initial adrenaline cost for Blink were increased, the adrenaline bleed for blinking should be reduced slightly. Another positive side-effect would be that Fades would Blink less often, and be able to spend less time (adrenaline) attacking so their staying power would be reduced.
Essentially they would require some skill to do the maximum damage in their short attack window, which right now they really don't because they're really hard to hit and they subsequently seem to tank forever, before having a best-guaranteed escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Unknown Worlds Entertainment)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown Worlds Entertainment)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Balance</b>
<b>Update:</b> Fade tuning to fit him more to character (harassment, surgical striker) while making him feel more responsive to use, and less of a tank. Bumped his acceleration while ethereal. Dropped health from 300 to 200. Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally. Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures. Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Win. Can't wait to try out the new Fade.