<!--quoteo(post=1865459:date=Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not at all, I have no issues with that.. my issues with jumping are exploits/glitching<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye the classic argument. Noobs call gameplay implemented strafe jump in Quake 3 "exploit/glitching" because they can't take 10min to learn it
<!--quoteo(post=1865459:date=Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and I just like the feel of the combat when the other player cannot hop around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I said, you're a noob (don't call it "the feel" just the "lack of reaction and aim needed") and I don't want your noob-friendly gameplay.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I'd rather have accuracy while jumping or sprinting be sporadic than removing the ability to jump or shoot while jumping.(normal accuracy for jetpack)
That way you can also remove the delay from sprinting and the time you start shooting. Instead of having to wait before you can shoot, you can try shooting them with reduced accuracy.
<!--quoteo(post=1865494:date=Aug 1 2011, 02:14 PM:name=F O X)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (F O X @ Aug 1 2011, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ye the classic argument. Noobs call gameplay implemented strafe jump in Quake 3 "exploit/glitching" because they can't take 10min to learn it
That's what I said, you're a noob (don't call it "the feel" just the "lack of reaction and aim needed") and I don't want your noob-friendly gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah, gotta love people like this. No logic, just noob references and insults. This is why I stopped posting on forums in the first place around 4 years ago, MMO's have the worst communities and still not regretting leaving them(first I have seen here, thank God). So glad most of the NS2 community is fun and mature to play with(even on public servers so far). I do fine with aiming and reaction time on my own, hop on 156 server and challenge me :P.
My vote is no. I was for limiting the jump spam because it looked goofy and spam in any way is indicating a lack in another area. we had jump spam...there were adjustments we had turret spam...there were adjustments we had blink spam...there were adjustments
there is a pattern there. none of those things are BAD and have to be removed. it is just the sheer act of constantly repeating them cannot lead to winning.
jumping is fine if something like a skulk bit my ankle ...I would jump ...but not forever.
I can jump in real life. I can jump and shoot at and hit a calve sized target in real life no problem, and I'm not even a super duper space marine. If jumping in combat keeps me alive I will do it and not think about what it looks like (wtf srsly), real life or video game.
<!--quoteo(post=1865528:date=Aug 1 2011, 04:54 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Aug 1 2011, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can jump in real life. I can jump and shoot at and hit a calve sized target in real life no problem, and I'm not even a super duper space marine. If jumping in combat keeps me alive I will do it and not think about what it looks like (wtf srsly), real life or video game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you climb ladders in real life? because you can't in NS2 (lol sorry, I had too)
<!--quoteo(post=1865518:date=Aug 1 2011, 04:27 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah, gotta love people like this. No logic, just noob references and insults. This is why I stopped posting on forums in the first place around 4 years ago, MMO's have the worst communities and still not regretting leaving them(first I have seen here, thank God). So glad most of the NS2 community is fun and mature to play with(even on public servers so far). I do fine with aiming and reaction time on my own, hop on 156 server and challenge me :P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's the same as any game evolves into its metagame. If you don't want to learn every advantage available to you and voluntarily gimp your potential, then you should not be complaining when people DO maximize their potential. Go run away to your sheltered casual servers if you want, I won't chase you from game to game to make fun of anyone. But don't come out to complain about those of us who enjoy the idea of doing our best.
<!--quoteo(post=1865518:date=Aug 1 2011, 03:27 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah, gotta love people like this. No logic, just noob references and insults. This is why I stopped posting on forums in the first place around 4 years ago, MMO's have the worst communities and still not regretting leaving them(first I have seen here, thank God). So glad most of the NS2 community is fun and mature to play with(even on public servers so far). I do fine with aiming and reaction time on my own, hop on 156 server and challenge me :P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what you have said in your posts i think the word "Noob" should be replaced with "Casual Gamer". You want to jump into a game, be able to do fairly well your first go, and have everything play as you are used to with main stream gaming today. There are groups of people who want the game to have some technical depth to it. If you played NS1 this was bunny hopping.
When you talk about restricting movement or taking control away from a player (i.e. Stamina bars, stuns, or vision altering effects) you are going to meet with the harshest replies. Jumping as a marine was never an issue even with the small amount of bunny hopping you could do (up an incline) and they didnt feel the need to add any type of penalties for too much jumping. Your gun didnt hostler itself, your aim remained steady, and there was no stamina bar. So how was this achieved?
Instead of limiting the player to get the desired outcome see what the issue is first. Dont apply band aid solutions to a problem that isnt even identified yet. Marines jumping around like rabbits looks fake. (Not a valid argument imo. If you want immersion play a canned single player game. If i want to walk around backwards half the map because i find it funny i will. Sorry if it breaks your immersion.) Now a marine jumping better than a skulk and dodging the skulks attempts to bite him is getting closer to the mark. Now we break it down further. Is it your in ability to aim? Is it hit registration? or do marines get away 100% of the time when 1 on 1 that something needs to be done to restrict the marine. Is a 1 on 1 confrontation supposed to be marine bias (Game design intends it that way)?
So much goes into it but you jumped to "Get rid of jumping all together." That gets people riled up. You break your finger so you cut off your arm? But anyways, sorry for my ramblings. Just my 55cents.
<!--quoteo(post=1865518:date=Aug 1 2011, 11:27 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah, gotta love people like this. No logic, just noob references and insults.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny because I find your kind (if theres such a thing) irrational ones. You usually hide behind words such as "Immersion" , "Realism" or plain "Looks" , without ever giving chance for a feature and regard it "unnessery". Yet when something comes that complete defiles those "traits" such as friendlyfire or unitclipping you turn your eyes away and pretend nothing is wrong.
Rational persons on the other try to make their point by presenting answer to the why it would be whatever. Example, friendlyfire allows greefing so it should not be included or friendlyfire should be included because it increases depth to positioning and attack angles meaning you can no longer shoot aliens through your teammates.
Too many people just try to force their opinion, one with no regards for how it would effect the game play usually just due laziness or plain fear. This is why opinions should be opened up (explained step by step) even if they hard to explain.
"I just like FF off because all cods servers have this" is a great example of opinion that really should not be given value, that is if you want to make a good game.
How is what your doing any different than what he's doing? No one is forcing their opinions on other people, they're just expressing them, and some people are taking it personally for some reason. You're not forcing your opinion that movement should be unrestricted, he's not forcing his opinion that he doesn't like how jumping can break immersion. You just <i>disagree.</i> When did having a different opinion equate to some sort of fascist conspiracy that's coming after people?
I think everyone needs to calm down and take a step back so they can realize people are discussing how they feel the game should be played and what they find important. Calling people "noobs" because you disagree is low class.
Realism and immersion are valid arguments because they are what define a game for what it is. There's a reason why Serious Sam allows you to tote about a black powder cannon while NS2 does not. Atmosphere is an important aspect in every game, multiplayer or not. CS has modern weapons because it's set in a "modern" setting in "modern locales" A game like NS2, with so much effort on the art design, the lighting, shadows, is a game that practically bleeds atmosphere. The lights going to red in a powerless room, a definite homage to Aliens, at the same time, a tactical choice, a layer of depth to the game is an example of where atmosphere, immersion, and gameplay can intermix solidly.
At the same time, fun is also an obviously valid argument. People play games because they are fun, and while some people get their fun from atmosphere, other people get their fun from figuring out ways to outsmart their opponent. In the end, a fun game is a game that can shift copies, and a game that can shift copies is a game that is profitable.
Finally, obviously, depth, is a valid argument. A game that was completely atmospheric would be like watching a slide show, or perhaps a better example, watching an endless monologue from a film noir. Oh sure, it's leaking atmosphere from every orifice, it's also flat, untouchable, and interminably <i>boring.</i> Sure the rain outside looks great, the smoke rising lazily from a stubbed out cigarette on the desk really gives a feel for the room, but in the end, its just a room and if you can't do anything with it what the heck's the point of putting it in a game? Depth is what allows us to interact and change the world through our actions in a game, and controls the degree to which we can affect it. For example, a maze, is a game with very little depth, you draw a line around and try not to get stuck into corners. Do you really interact with anything? Nope. Is it fun? Maybe for a little while. Obviously NS2 is far above that level of gameplay depth with structures, upgrades, and complex environments, and every time you remove an ability to interact with the environment, you also remove a degree of depth. Get rid of free jumping and you get rid of the ability to hop up on that broken power node in crevice for a clear line of sight into the vent, get rid of free jumping and suddenly railings become an impassable obstacle. Maybe as a marine you're getting rushed by three skulks in cross roads, and decide as an act of defiance, to throw yourself into the gap rather than let the aliens take you down (or maybe you just fight with your back to the pit so they have a chance to leap to their doom :P) That's all gameplay depth, and its a valid argument.
We want to combine atmosphere, depth, and fun together in a game, but in the end, I feel the hierarchy needs to go like this in cases where we can't balance all of them: 1: Fun 2: Depth 3: Atmosphere
(For example, when I was talking about climbing on things, I see that as a combination of all 3: You keep free jump as you like, so depth is maintained. You can climb up objects you are next too by pressing space bar and standing still, atmosphere is maintained, and you can climb and mantle objects that are much taller than you, so long as you're arms can reach, depth is increased because more of the map is open. Finally fun is not especially affected, it's still a fun as it was before.)
That's my <b>personal opinion and not an attack on people who don't agree.</b>
Alright really people? I have insulted no one but they keep flying at me just because I have a different opinion seriously what the hell? I do not like jumping in non-arcade style games the end, no point in insulting me and no point in calling me a noob or "casual gamer." I have now over 40 hours logged in NS2, with around 2:1 k/d on both sides now(in certain games obviously a average) within the 2 weeks ago I purchased NS2. Just because one person has a opinion you have does not mean at all you should harass them. If this was the case the world would still be in the friggin medieval ages...
As I stated, I do not like jumping gameplay.. to each his own damn people, guess it's time to hide in my corner again.. I spoke out with a opinion, which is what I thought Beta testing was about, apparently not.
*edit(posted at the same time)*
@ Azimaith : You understand and bring up strong points, thank you. My original suggestion was to add climbing and remove jumping, however as someone above said it is hard to achieve a good implementation of that. Very few games have achieved a good method for it, but if implemented correctly would suit both audiences.
If this is how we are ending the marine jump discussion once and for all, by insults and name calling, then you minus well sharpen your spacebar in to a kukri, make your mouse into a flail and call yourselves cyber warriors. Excluding the few with meaning full interjections, this doesn't look like it's going anywhere.
Jumping will be tweeked, because this is still a beta. As with lork flight and shirtguns and cornmander interface.
If this goes south any farther were going to hit Cyber Mexico.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
I find it annoyingly unbelievable that in all FPS games that impose accuracy penalty for jumping, the shotgun's aim never suffers. Does anyone find that odd?
IMO, it makes more sense that jumping while strafing should perform a dodge, with reduced height. That would make it a more effect evasive action, while not completely neglecting realism (we can't jump high at all when sidestepping). :)
<!--quoteo(post=1865615:date=Aug 1 2011, 11:08 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Aug 1 2011, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it annoyingly unbelievable that in all FPS games that impose, accuracy penalty for jumping, the shotgun's aim never suffers. Does anyone find that odd?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's because most games give you an accuracy penalty by widening your spray cone, not by jerking your weapon off to the left or something. The reticle at the center of your screen is not changed. Shotguns are used at such close range and have such a wide cone to begin with that it's simply not noticed.
i think it because shotguns are always fired from the hip, in theory. like in counter strike if youre using the m3 and shoot while jumping the accuracy is perfect. But if you were carrying the xm auto shotty and you happen to jump while firing, the second shot in the air will be no where near your crosshairs.
<!--quoteo(post=1865592:date=Aug 2 2011, 03:31 AM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 2 2011, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You understand and bring up strong points, thank you. My original suggestion was to add climbing and remove jumping, however as someone above said it is hard to achieve a good implementation of that. Very few games have achieved a good method for it, but if<b> implemented correctly would suit both audiences.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you did insult someone, ever heard of skillbased climbing obsticles? I still think you have no clue, which is annoying.
You are all missing the point. <b>How am I supposed to hold raging, off the chain ready room <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->r<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->a<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->e<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->s<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> if I can't jump?</b>
But seriously.
I have a dream. I have a dream that NS2 can be beautiful, widely popular, accessible, and difficult. I have a dream that NS2 can be these things without being dumbed down. Dumbed down... To the level of movement restricted, auto aim, press X to win, small environment, <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->garbage<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> that has taken our beloved First Person Shooter and <b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->defiled<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> it in unspeakable ways.
We the people, the gamers, the non gamers, and the people who have not seen NS2, but who will be enthralled when they do, are <b>smarter</b> than that. We are <b><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->intelligent<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>. We can handle complexity, richness, and <b>dammit we are capable of jumping in a first person shooter!</b>
So you can't have my jump. You can't take it. You can restrict its use to stop me pogoing around a skulk like a clown. But I will not be denied my freedom of movement. I will not be denied control over my character.
Onward!
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->Edit: All that and it was full of spelling mistakes...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You could probably solve the jump problem just by adding a big vertical inclusion zone to the skulk bite. Or by adding like an invisible hitbox under a marine when they jump.
It's really only specific problems caused by the issue, so you can introduce specific workarounds to combat them.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1865927:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:47 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could probably solve the jump problem just by adding a big vertical inclusion zone to the skulk bite. Or by adding like an invisible hitbox under a marine when they jump.
It's really only specific problems caused by the issue, so you can introduce specific workarounds to combat them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are good ideas. Tho I fear they won't solve the root causes: low client and server performance and misleading jumping animations. My FPS often drops down from 30 to 10 when I engage in combat, both as a marine and as an alien. Low server tick rate is also a major culprit. It's quite difficult to aim when things suddenly warp around your view.
I love how the game has come a long way from the early alpha days, thanks to the dev team's hard work. NS2 is a lot more enjoyable to play now. However, there are a few issues that make close quarter combat frustrating.
hey how about taking out the jump and putting 'prone' in the game LOLOLOLOLOLOLO no not really. Jump rules, its almost perfected they just need to make it easier to jump over rails and stuff. And i believe they will eventually get there.
At first I thought this topic/op was a troll, I mean come on, 2 games cited as "FPS's" without jumping, those being BC2 which is an FPS with jumping and then Gears of War which blatantly isn't first person and second doesn't even need jumping besides jumping over cover which is available. The only game which comes to my mind in recent months without jumping would be bulletstorm.
But yeah, since it actually went else where i'm with NS2HD, last thing we want is dumbed down games, removing jumping is doing just that (plus it'd be horribly unfair for marines who already get limited movement compared to skulks). Plus anyway, think of the ready room raves, what would we do :(
Comments
Ye the classic argument. Noobs call gameplay implemented strafe jump in Quake 3 "exploit/glitching" because they can't take 10min to learn it
<!--quoteo(post=1865459:date=Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 1 2011, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and I just like the feel of the combat when the other player cannot hop around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I said, you're a noob (don't call it "the feel" just the "lack of reaction and aim needed") and I don't want your noob-friendly gameplay.
That way you can also remove the delay from sprinting and the time you start shooting. Instead of having to wait before you can shoot, you can try shooting them with reduced accuracy.
That's what I said, you're a noob (don't call it "the feel" just the "lack of reaction and aim needed") and I don't want your noob-friendly gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah, gotta love people like this. No logic, just noob references and insults. This is why I stopped posting on forums in the first place around 4 years ago, MMO's have the worst communities and still not regretting leaving them(first I have seen here, thank God). So glad most of the NS2 community is fun and mature to play with(even on public servers so far). I do fine with aiming and reaction time on my own, hop on 156 server and challenge me :P.
My vote is no.
I was for limiting the jump spam because it looked goofy and spam in any way is indicating a lack in another area.
we had jump spam...there were adjustments
we had turret spam...there were adjustments
we had blink spam...there were adjustments
there is a pattern there.
none of those things are BAD and have to be removed.
it is just the sheer act of constantly repeating them cannot lead to winning.
jumping is fine
if something like a skulk bit my ankle ...I would jump ...but not forever.
I can jump and shoot at and hit a calve sized target in real life no problem, and I'm not even a super duper space marine.
If jumping in combat keeps me alive I will do it and not think about what it looks like (wtf srsly), real life or video game.
I can jump and shoot at and hit a calve sized target in real life no problem, and I'm not even a super duper space marine.
If jumping in combat keeps me alive I will do it and not think about what it looks like (wtf srsly), real life or video game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you climb ladders in real life? because you can't in NS2 (lol sorry, I had too)
No, it's the same as any game evolves into its metagame. If you don't want to learn every advantage available to you and voluntarily gimp your potential, then you should not be complaining when people DO maximize their potential. Go run away to your sheltered casual servers if you want, I won't chase you from game to game to make fun of anyone. But don't come out to complain about those of us who enjoy the idea of doing our best.
From what you have said in your posts i think the word "Noob" should be replaced with "Casual Gamer". You want to jump into a game, be able to do fairly well your first go, and have everything play as you are used to with main stream gaming today. There are groups of people who want the game to have some technical depth to it. If you played NS1 this was bunny hopping.
When you talk about restricting movement or taking control away from a player (i.e. Stamina bars, stuns, or vision altering effects) you are going to meet with the harshest replies. Jumping as a marine was never an issue even with the small amount of bunny hopping you could do (up an incline) and they didnt feel the need to add any type of penalties for too much jumping. Your gun didnt hostler itself, your aim remained steady, and there was no stamina bar. So how was this achieved?
Instead of limiting the player to get the desired outcome see what the issue is first. Dont apply band aid solutions to a problem that isnt even identified yet. Marines jumping around like rabbits looks fake. (Not a valid argument imo. If you want immersion play a canned single player game. If i want to walk around backwards half the map because i find it funny i will. Sorry if it breaks your immersion.) Now a marine jumping better than a skulk and dodging the skulks attempts to bite him is getting closer to the mark. Now we break it down further. Is it your in ability to aim? Is it hit registration? or do marines get away 100% of the time when 1 on 1 that something needs to be done to restrict the marine. Is a 1 on 1 confrontation supposed to be marine bias (Game design intends it that way)?
So much goes into it but you jumped to "Get rid of jumping all together." That gets people riled up. You break your finger so you cut off your arm? But anyways, sorry for my ramblings. Just my 55cents.
Funny because I find your kind (if theres such a thing) irrational ones. You usually hide behind words such as "Immersion" , "Realism" or plain "Looks" , without ever giving chance for a feature and regard it "unnessery". Yet when something comes that complete defiles those "traits" such as friendlyfire or unitclipping you turn your eyes away and pretend nothing is wrong.
Rational persons on the other try to make their point by presenting answer to the why it would be whatever. Example, friendlyfire allows greefing so it should not be included or friendlyfire should be included because it increases depth to positioning and attack angles meaning you can no longer shoot aliens through your teammates.
Too many people just try to force their opinion, one with no regards for how it would effect the game play usually just due laziness or plain fear. This is why opinions should be opened up (explained step by step) even if they hard to explain.
"I just like FF off because all cods servers have this" is a great example of opinion that really should not be given value, that is if you want to make a good game.
I think everyone needs to calm down and take a step back so they can realize people are discussing how they feel the game should be played and what they find important.
Calling people "noobs" because you disagree is low class.
Realism and immersion are valid arguments because they are what define a game for what it is. There's a reason why Serious Sam allows you to tote about a black powder cannon while NS2 does not. Atmosphere is an important aspect in every game, multiplayer or not. CS has modern weapons because it's set in a "modern" setting in "modern locales" A game like NS2, with so much effort on the art design, the lighting, shadows, is a game that practically bleeds atmosphere. The lights going to red in a powerless room, a definite homage to Aliens, at the same time, a tactical choice, a layer of depth to the game is an example of where atmosphere, immersion, and gameplay can intermix solidly.
At the same time, fun is also an obviously valid argument. People play games because they are fun, and while some people get their fun from atmosphere, other people get their fun from figuring out ways to outsmart their opponent. In the end, a fun game is a game that can shift copies, and a game that can shift copies is a game that is profitable.
Finally, obviously, depth, is a valid argument. A game that was completely atmospheric would be like watching a slide show, or perhaps a better example, watching an endless monologue from a film noir. Oh sure, it's leaking atmosphere from every orifice, it's also flat, untouchable, and interminably <i>boring.</i> Sure the rain outside looks great, the smoke rising lazily from a stubbed out cigarette on the desk really gives a feel for the room, but in the end, its just a room and if you can't do anything with it what the heck's the point of putting it in a game? Depth is what allows us to interact and change the world through our actions in a game, and controls the degree to which we can affect it. For example, a maze, is a game with very little depth, you draw a line around and try not to get stuck into corners. Do you really interact with anything? Nope. Is it fun? Maybe for a little while. Obviously NS2 is far above that level of gameplay depth with structures, upgrades, and complex environments, and every time you remove an ability to interact with the environment, you also remove a degree of depth. Get rid of free jumping and you get rid of the ability to hop up on that broken power node in crevice for a clear line of sight into the vent, get rid of free jumping and suddenly railings become an impassable obstacle. Maybe as a marine you're getting rushed by three skulks in cross roads, and decide as an act of defiance, to throw yourself into the gap rather than let the aliens take you down (or maybe you just fight with your back to the pit so they have a chance to leap to their doom :P) That's all gameplay depth, and its a valid argument.
We want to combine atmosphere, depth, and fun together in a game, but in the end, I feel the hierarchy needs to go like this in cases where we can't balance all of them:
1: Fun
2: Depth
3: Atmosphere
(For example, when I was talking about climbing on things, I see that as a combination of all 3: You keep free jump as you like, so depth is maintained. You can climb up objects you are next too by pressing space bar and standing still, atmosphere is maintained, and you can climb and mantle objects that are much taller than you, so long as you're arms can reach, depth is increased because more of the map is open. Finally fun is not especially affected, it's still a fun as it was before.)
That's my <b>personal opinion and not an attack on people who don't agree.</b>
As I stated, I do not like jumping gameplay.. to each his own damn people, guess it's time to hide in my corner again.. I spoke out with a opinion, which is what I thought Beta testing was about, apparently not.
*edit(posted at the same time)*
@ Azimaith : You understand and bring up strong points, thank you. My original suggestion was to add climbing and remove jumping, however as someone above said it is hard to achieve a good implementation of that. Very few games have achieved a good method for it, but if implemented correctly would suit both audiences.
Jumping will be tweeked, because this is still a beta. As with lork flight and shirtguns and cornmander interface.
If this goes south any farther were going to hit Cyber Mexico.
IMO, it makes more sense that jumping while strafing should perform a dodge, with reduced height. That would make it a more effect evasive action, while not completely neglecting realism (we can't jump high at all when sidestepping). :)
It's because most games give you an accuracy penalty by widening your spray cone, not by jerking your weapon off to the left or something. The reticle at the center of your screen is not changed. Shotguns are used at such close range and have such a wide cone to begin with that it's simply not noticed.
Unfortunate side effect, I guess.
like in counter strike if youre using the m3 and shoot while jumping the accuracy is perfect. But if you were carrying the xm auto shotty and you happen to jump while firing, the second shot in the air will be no where near your crosshairs.
Now you did insult someone, ever heard of skillbased climbing obsticles? I still think you have no clue, which is annoying.
Let us stop beating around the bush.
GUYS!?
You are all missing the point. <b>How am I supposed to hold raging, off the chain ready room <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->r<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->a<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->v<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->e<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->s<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> if I can't jump?</b>
But seriously.
I have a dream. I have a dream that NS2 can be beautiful, widely popular, accessible, and difficult. I have a dream that NS2 can be these things without being dumbed down. Dumbed down... To the level of movement restricted, auto aim, press X to win, small environment, <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->garbage<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> that has taken our beloved First Person Shooter and <b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->defiled<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> it in unspeakable ways.
We the people, the gamers, the non gamers, and the people who have not seen NS2, but who will be enthralled when they do, are <b>smarter</b> than that. We are <b><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->intelligent<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>. We can handle complexity, richness, and <b>dammit we are capable of jumping in a first person shooter!</b>
So you can't have my jump. You can't take it. You can restrict its use to stop me pogoing around a skulk like a clown. But I will not be denied my freedom of movement. I will not be denied control over my character.
Onward!
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->Edit: All that and it was full of spelling mistakes...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It's really only specific problems caused by the issue, so you can introduce specific workarounds to combat them.
It's really only specific problems caused by the issue, so you can introduce specific workarounds to combat them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are good ideas. Tho I fear they won't solve the root causes: low client and server performance and misleading jumping animations. My FPS often drops down from 30 to 10 when I engage in combat, both as a marine and as an alien. Low server tick rate is also a major culprit. It's quite difficult to aim when things suddenly warp around your view.
I love how the game has come a long way from the early alpha days, thanks to the dev team's hard work. NS2 is a lot more enjoyable to play now. However, there are a few issues that make close quarter combat frustrating.
no not really.
Jump rules, its almost perfected they just need to make it easier to jump over rails and stuff. And i believe they will eventually get there.
But yeah, since it actually went else where i'm with NS2HD, last thing we want is dumbed down games, removing jumping is doing just that (plus it'd be horribly unfair for marines who already get limited movement compared to skulks). Plus anyway, think of the ready room raves, what would we do :(