Any one else want tech nodes back?
Zuriki
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
Ever since they removed the tech node requirement for, well, tech. It feels like tech nodes (or whatever they are now they don't provide any tech) have become completely obsolete; especially for Marines. The removal of this tech node purpose results in tech nodes being nothing more than glorified barricades to hives. If tech nodes absolutely were required to access tech it would mean the defence of these locations would actually be promoted and would serve to severely hamper your enemies when taking them out -- much like how blocking 2nd hive cripples the alien team.
It adds a sense of urgency when any of the Command Stations are under attack, it also means that Marines are less likely to turtle Marine start because if they want to advance their technology they're going to need to expand and maintain up to 3 command stations at once to reach end-game tech.
I just wished UWE had given tech nodes a chance, they were prematurely removed because only tier 2 tech was implemented meaning you could gain that tech and sell the extra tech node. I hope I'm not alone in thinking this, I just honestly thought removing the requirement for tech nodes was a regression in terms of gameplay.
Sorry that this post is very disorganised.
It adds a sense of urgency when any of the Command Stations are under attack, it also means that Marines are less likely to turtle Marine start because if they want to advance their technology they're going to need to expand and maintain up to 3 command stations at once to reach end-game tech.
I just wished UWE had given tech nodes a chance, they were prematurely removed because only tier 2 tech was implemented meaning you could gain that tech and sell the extra tech node. I hope I'm not alone in thinking this, I just honestly thought removing the requirement for tech nodes was a regression in terms of gameplay.
Sorry that this post is very disorganised.
Comments
I do agree that it was more fun when marines top priority was to get a second base before aliens do, and I hope the tech points will be used again now that we have cysts.
However, they should have it where the higher tech is tied to the tech node, rather than the CS upgrade. Expansion should be strongly encouraged like most RTSs.
upgrades and tech must be tied to buildings as they were in ns1, so both sides can stop each other from gearing up. Right now aliens can own 90% of the map while still holding main base with ease, I know because I've had many games like this.
+1
Maybe use a new tech building instead of a CC to point out that the main base is still where u started, also I really don't like multiple comm's. The way it is now marines bunker in to much and too many sentry gun stalemate commanders are born..
(Also how do you make a balanced map layout if one team doesn't require a resource that the other team does..)
Maybe use a new tech building instead of a CC to point out that the main base is still where u started, also I really don't like multiple comm's. The way it is now marines bunker in to much and too many sentry gun stalemate commanders are born..
(Also how do you make a balanced map layout if one team doesn't require a resource that the other team does..)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 tech point for each starting base, and then 2 addition tech points, this would cause the teams to constantly be vying for map control,this would also mean that in order to get your top stuff, you need to hold both additional tech points. however I do agree that the last things marines need right now is tech points, it's hard enough off the get go to get res towers up with a few upgrades to stay alive before fades come knocking. The difference between marines and aliens is that aliens don't require to be physically there to build the hive, but marines do.
I'd like to think it's one thing that separates marines from aliens: marines need to stick together, aliens need to form smaller teams. If more bases are needed, they can't be negative bonuses like how skulk leap was removed, since marines can barely hold on to a base as it is.
Maybe if new command chairs speeded up res boost or infantry respawn or something, in case nobody wants to program additional stuff for marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-'ScardyBob'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('ScardyBob')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Expansion should be strongly encouraged like most RTSs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This.
The only problem I see with this is there isn't anything in the game to naturally inform marines this is required. The game's systems should imply (or blatantly tell) this to the players somehow. This would help tone down the turtling problem the game is plagued with right now. The downside that I can see from UWE's perspective is this would increase the length of the games. I don't know if they're still wanting to have shorter length games, but requiring multiple techpoints would make them longer.
I don't recall who suggested it, but you could also have another bonus to capturing more tech points, have them act as a multiplier for team res flow. Although, this is kind of biased towards marines, because aliens just don't need that much tres atm.
Yes but in most rts (=starcraft) expansions are linked to resources and map control, not tech. The idea is that you can trade-off economy for tech, e.g. dark templar rush.
Binding tech (fades to second hive, or guns to tech nodes) to expanding imply you cannot choose between the two, reducing game depth (that is the number of possible strategies).
Binding tech (fades to second hive, or guns to tech nodes) to expanding imply you cannot choose between the two, reducing game depth (that is the number of possible strategies).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While this is true, in most other RTSs, resources are limited at each of their locations. This isn't the case in NS2, so you need the same effect in another form. Techpoints. That, or throw away the current resource model and start over.
An alternative to the problem you described would be to have techpoints reduce the cost of upgrades and tech. This way you can still upgrade with one technode, but have the option for more aggressive expansion to increase the speed that upgrades come in. This would of course have a cost, because it would need res to take and secure the techpoints.
only noob comms turret farm, I for one, rarely use turrets.
NS1 1.04 had very stales games that could easily turn into 2/3/4-hour fragfests. This was because of the balance decisions, and had nothing to do with marine "tech points" whatsoever. Indeed, what 2.01 made was unlock fades and onoses which meant aliens could <i>compensate</i> the lack of hive spots of turtling marines with lifeforms. OCs became also less powerful. Also the lerk got a proper flight model, fade got rid of its teleport blink and spikes were gone. This meant much shorter, more interesting and less stale games.
What you fail to realize here is <i>tactical versatility</i>. If you limit marines tech tree choices by introducing power nodes, then you are going to cripple both the <i>upgrade paths</i> and <i>tactics</i>. The version before 178 had tech tree where commander could choose between maybe three options: shotguns, armor upgrade or extra CC. Even obs wasn't available in T1. Contrast this to NS1, where marines could go Fast AA, fast Jetpacks, fast heavies, fast upgrades, fast catpacks, fast motion tracking, fast phase gates or relocate, and add the number of shotguns making plenty of options for commander to pick. In NS1, there were tactics that were specific to lack of phase gates to get early jetpacks or heavies. By introducing non-res limitations, you are going to remove <i>versatility</i> from this game, thus making it more boring.
In NS, aliens generally can cover much more area than marines because of their mobility and if marines have to hold equal amount of area, you're going have to balance this some other way probably causing just more problems.
Tech nodes are nothing but glorified RTs, something that gives you extra upgrades. Playing games with few nodes is like playing a game with few res towers. When you have few of them, there's every incentive to turtle them. Contrast this to NS1, turtling marine res nodes isn't really effective because there're other nodes to cap. That is, aliens can't defeat marine upgrades by turtling, but have to ambush, use tactics, teamwork and skill to defeat the marines.
Also, In NS1, marines couldn't almost ever win by turretfarming because wasting resources on turrets meant less medpacks and little upgrades. 2/3-hive aliens would then destroy such bad commanders. Only in these 12vs12 games turtling can become a real problem.
The reason there're stale games is myriad of issues like it was in 1.04. Out of Stetson I'd say its because turrets are powerful (not as much as they used to), hit registration problems, alien lifeform locks, lack of upgrades, movement issues, performance problems, lack of use for tres, lack of late tech, cheap hives and other balance issues. This would need a bit more careful analysis but I just wanted to respond to your post.
You know, I could mod even NS1 so marines would have to build a CC in a hive to get AA or something and it would add <i>nothing</i> to the game.
NS1 1.04 had very stales games that could easily turn into 2/3/4-hour fragfests. This was because of the balance decisions, and had nothing to do with marine "tech points" whatsoever. Indeed, what 2.01 made was unlock fades and onoses which meant aliens could <i>compensate</i> the lack of hive spots of turtling marines with lifeforms. OCs became also less powerful. Also the lerk got a proper flight model, fade got rid of its teleport blink and spikes were gone. This meant much shorter, more interesting and less stale games.
What you fail to realize here is <i>tactical versatility</i>. If you limit marines tech tree choices by introducing power nodes, then you are going to cripple both the <i>upgrade paths</i> and <i>tactics</i>. The version before 178 had tech tree where commander could choose between maybe three options: shotguns, armor upgrade or extra CC. Even obs wasn't available in T1. Contrast this to NS1, where marines could go Fast AA, fast Jetpacks, fast heavies, fast upgrades, fast catpacks, fast motion tracking, fast phase gates or relocate, and add the number of shotguns making plenty of options for commander to pick. In NS1, there were tactics that were specific to lack of phase gates to get early jetpacks or heavies. By introducing non-res limitations, you are going to remove <i>versatility</i> from this game, thus making it more boring.
In NS, aliens generally can cover much more area than marines because of their mobility and if marines have to hold equal amount of area, you're going have to balance this some other way probably causing just more problems.
Tech nodes are nothing but glorified RTs, something that gives you extra upgrades. Playing games with few nodes is like playing a game with few res towers. When you have few of them, there's every incentive to turtle them. Contrast this to NS1, turtling marine res nodes isn't really effective because there're other nodes to cap. That is, aliens can't defeat marine upgrades by turtling, but have to ambush, use tactics, teamwork and skill to defeat the marines.
Also, In NS1, marines couldn't almost ever win by turretfarming because wasting resources on turrets meant less medpacks and little upgrades. 2/3-hive aliens would then destroy such bad commanders. Only in these 12vs12 games turtling can become a real problem.
The reason there're stale games is myriad of issues like it was in 1.04. Out of Stetson I'd say its because turrets are powerful (not as much as they used to), hit registration problems, alien lifeform locks, lack of upgrades, movement issues, performance problems, lack of use for tres, lack of late tech, cheap hives and other balance issues. This would need a bit more careful analysis but I just wanted to respond to your post.
You know, I could mod even NS1 so marines would have to build a CC in a hive to get AA or something and it would add <i>nothing</i> to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+9001
But this would somehow make more than 4 techpoints (including marine and alien start) in a map obsolete. In fact the number of techpoints right now does nothing else than shifting balance towards aliens because marines have to check more possible hive locations.
But apart from that I like the idea of having versatile strategies. NS1 did this on the alien side by tying every chamber (defense, movement, sensory) to a hive, so aliens were not limited on what to choose, it only limited the total amount of tech per hive. NS2 is appearantly going in the same direction.
Maybe something similar could be done for marines? (i.e. limiting the amount of tech without limiting the choices). I'd imagine that at gamestart marines can decide if they want to go robotics, observatory or prototypes, every additional cc unlocking one more.
IMO Marines currently have it easy, as they only have to defend Resource Nodes to tech up. Defending Resource Nodes are a lot easier than defending Tech Nodes, which are further away from each other (if all else fails, recycle!). Marines also have the major advantage of not being crippled by the lack of a second Tech Node. On the other hand, simply forcing Marines to capture Tech Nodes like the Kharaas could cause the game to become potentially frustratingly one-sided for both teams, as demonstrated by Rifles vs Fades, and one-Hive Kharaa vs Marines with ARCs, Grenade Launchers and Flamethrowers.
By removing Resource Nodes' ability to generate Team Resources, Team Resource would become a lot scarcer with just one Tech Node. Hence both teams are encourage to capture extra Tech Nodes to accelerate their teching speed.
The challenge is, that to tech up and defend territory, both teams need to capture, and defend Tech Nodes, rather than simply capture the two nearest Resource Nodes and defend them.
The good news is, even if one team does not have an expansion (2nd Tech Node), they will not be completely denied certain tech (eg. Bilebomb, Grenade), which may be vital to break the other team's hold on Tech Nodes.
For this change to work, the resource cost, or power of some units may need to be changed. For instance, Hydras count would have to be limited (to less than 3 per Gorge), as they help defend territory, but only cost PRes (AI-controlled territory-control units should cost TRes). The relative cost of Sentries will become much higher, as Extractors can no longer fuel Sentry farms.
Turtling in Marine Start is a completely other issue and can be adressed in so many other ways.
Just because marines don't have to build a 2nd CC doesn't mean they are able to ignore the tech point locations. Locking down these locations denies the alien team one possible expansion and gives a res tower (in case of summit). With phasegates it even saves marines some travel time to push deeper into alien territory.
Adding a CC requirement to that marine outpost does the following:
-Adds another thing marines have to stand, look at and hold use. There is already enough using of static stuff going on, when you (re-)take a tech point. Possible reactivating of power nodes and all the other buildings that need (re-)building.
-Adds one more big obstacle in that room, which is not good for marines.
-Adds one more high-hp building to destroy for aliens, when they retake that location. After destroying anything that is a threat (phasegate, ip, turrets, powernode) most aliens move on anyway instead of biting down remaining buildings, because that's boring.
Moreover I prefer games with one marine commander for now.
You can already see on alien side how multiple commanders interfere.
Although I can imagine some kind of IP limit (3?) for CCs, so playing on huge servers on a bigger map, a 2nd CC actually gives more spawning devices and another commander to drop med/ammo to all these marines on the field.