<!--quoteo(post=1860158:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I disagree on:
Swarm and Frenzy are pretty underwhelming right now... - If you have a lerk with swarm hanging around fades, which also have swarm, they deal so much more damage together. Or two lerks with swarm using spikes & gas... almost each spike does additional +25 dmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know where you're getting this data from, but I'm looking at the game code right now and it isn't here.
Swarm increases the damage of your attacks by 25%, not a flat 25. Spikes deal 8 - 30 (depending on range) damage each hit and fire at 0.1/second. With Swarm that's 10 - 37.5 damage each hit. So a Lerk can Spike a Marine to death in 0.8 - 2.8 seconds without Swarm. With Swarm: 0.6 - 2.2 seconds.
I mean sure it's definitely worth 2 P.Res, but is it worth the design space when we've already got universal, unconditional Damage upgrades?
And we've got the inverse problem with Skulks. Bite does 75 damage and can already kill a Marine in 2 hits. You're only dealing the extra 25 damage after the first hit, and that second one is already a guaranteed kill without the extra 25. The Exosuit as it currently stands can take 7 standard Bites. Swarm knocks it down a whoppin' 6.
So what's it doing, other than providing a conditional Melee #4?
<!--quoteo(post=1860158:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- More damage from swarm -> more overkill damage for frenzy. They combine nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So does Melee #1, 2, and 3. They can combine nicely all they want, but if they're of little use by themselves then at the very least why waste design space with 2 separate abilities?
<!--quoteo(post=1860183:date=Jul 12 2011, 06:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 12 2011, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These are realy excellent changes. I would be surprised if they weren't modded if UWE didnt go this path. Tying the squad mechanic to med/ammo packs is ingenious and makes it actually useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've actually got quite a few of these changes implemented in my own project!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
lol asraniel, how could you not see this type of thread becoming a soap box for those few who are hung up on an argument? (harimau with his RFK removal and trueveritas with his sentry removal)
all this "balancing" for an unfinished game is sounding so preemptive in order to just satiate the few very vocal that i believe its all for nothing. bring in optimizations and content first, i say.
<!--quoteo(post=1860169:date=Jul 12 2011, 04:53 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Jul 12 2011, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so what you are saying is you want it to be NS1..... problem with NS1 as far as balancing was that since a marine was COMM you were essentially down a player from the start again the aliens. I think you really need to embrace some new ideas otherwise whats the point of all this<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just laughed so hard I spit out water all over my keyboard :c
<!--quoteo(post=1860191:date=Jul 13 2011, 01:51 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 13 2011, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know where you're getting this data from, but I'm looking at the game code right now and it isn't here. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well still, adding that +25<b>%</b> is still quite life changing for fade and skulk attacks when the marines start getting armor upgrades. You kill with 2 hits instead of 3. Just pop a hallway full of gas and you have a swarm party. Also found it convenient for taking down buildings with someone.
Although I guess they could be better. The "+25 damage" in evolve menu was disleading.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1860262:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:56 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 12 2011, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well still, adding that +25<b>%</b> is still quite life changing for fade and skulk attacks when the marines start getting armor upgrades. You kill with 2 hits instead of 3. Just pop a hallway full of gas and you have a swarm party. Also found it convenient for taking down buildings with someone.
Although I guess they could be better. The "+25 damage" in evolve menu was disleading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is a "major" tooltip error. Imagine Parasite hitting for 35 damage per shot, or 55 damage per Spike. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1860262:date=Jul 13 2011, 12:56 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 13 2011, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well still, adding that +25<b>%</b> is still quite life changing for fade and skulk attacks when the marines start getting armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but that's why the aliens have the Melee/Armor upgrades.
My point is why bother coming up with a distinct and optional upgrade when it provides no additional value (beyond the 'damage') to the game? Swarm was intended to promote group tactics, but it simply doesn't in it's current implementation. So really it's just a cheap damage upgrade... Underwhelming.
<!--quoteo(post=1860124:date=Jul 12 2011, 08:32 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 12 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> <b><u>Damage Types</u></b>: Further distinguish damage types. There are no inherent trade-offs between Light, Normal, and Heavy damage, as initially proposed. What happened to Heavy damage dealing EXTRA damage to Armor? Now it's just the ONLY weapon that deals 100% to Armor, which while relatively similar, is not strictly the same.</li><li> <b><u>Economy</u></b>: Give Res Nozzles a finite supply of Team Res (so no team can turtle sitting on one node)</li><li> <b><u>Medpacks:</u></b> Distribute (more) Healing between nearby Squad members (remember Medpacks no longer restore Armor)</li><li> <b><u>Commander:</u></b> Change all P.Res costs to T.Res costs (for Commander). P.Res is a way for GROUND UNITS to have autonomy, why do Commanders need P.Res?<!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li> <b><u>Flamethrower</u></b>: Remove the chance to douse flames (change it to a timer if you must) and introduce spreading Flames!</li><li> <b><u>Hivemind</u></b> (Alien Commander): Change Alien Commander name to Hivemind (or Overlord?)</li><li> <b>Hivemind</b>: Make all immature Chambers available at Hive 1.</li><li> <b>Hivemind</b>: Make each Mature Chamber type require it's respective <i>Advanced Hive</i> (i.e. Mature Crag requires Crag Hive, Mature Shift requires Shift Hive, etc.)</li><li> <b>Hivemind</b>: Let Hives Evolve to Crag Hive, Shift Hive, or Shade Hive by selecting the research at the Hive itself.</li><li> <b>Hivemind</b>: Move all of the chamber-specific upgrades and researches to their respective Hives.</li><li> <b>Hivemind</b>: Give Fury, Umbra, Cloak, and Energize to Hives, each with their respective <i>Advanced Hive</i> as Prerequisites for enabling the ability (Crag Hive required to cast Umbra; N/A for Fury). Permit these abilities to be cast (from any Hive) on any Structure connected to the Casting Hive.</li><li> <b><u>Chamber Upgrades</u></b>: Increase the cost and efficacy of upgrades (Swarm, Frenzy, Carapace, Regen, etc.). Swarm and Frenzy are pretty underwhelming right now, but if they were more useful and more expensive they could be used to keep low-tier units relevant in the late-game.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great ideas!
(removed the ones i dont agree on, or not in that version)
<!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->i would remove pres for the entire marine team. (ns1 style, or make another system for marines, atm you either have to make the weapons crappy or so expensive that you caant afford it at times you would need it to fast counter xyz)
PS: And change the GL to a real GL(more expensive), as lmg attatchment its useless. (you can recycle the gl attatchment with only one nade as pendant to the old ns1 nade with research)
<!--quoteo(post=1860203:date=Jul 13 2011, 07:22 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 13 2011, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol asraniel, how could you not see this type of thread becoming a soap box for those few who are hung up on an argument? (harimau with his RFK removal and trueveritas with his sentry removal)
all this "balancing" for an unfinished game is sounding so preemptive in order to just satiate the few very vocal that i believe its all for nothing. bring in optimizations and content first, i say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Made me laugh. I don't know why you're getting so angry at me, or indeed, why you value personal RFK so much. I actually took this thread seriously and gave some honest suggestions, without any intention to troll. But apparently my troll aura is too strong, and the lesser beings (you) got trolled regardless.
Comments
Swarm and Frenzy are pretty underwhelming right now...
- If you have a lerk with swarm hanging around fades, which also have swarm, they deal so much more damage together. Or two lerks with swarm using spikes & gas... almost each spike does additional +25 dmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where you're getting this data from, but I'm looking at the game code right now and it isn't here.
Swarm increases the damage of your attacks by 25%, not a flat 25. Spikes deal 8 - 30 (depending on range) damage each hit and fire at 0.1/second. With Swarm that's 10 - 37.5 damage each hit. So a Lerk can Spike a Marine to death in 0.8 - 2.8 seconds without Swarm. With Swarm: 0.6 - 2.2 seconds.
I mean sure it's definitely worth 2 P.Res, but is it worth the design space when we've already got universal, unconditional Damage upgrades?
And we've got the inverse problem with Skulks. Bite does 75 damage and can already kill a Marine in 2 hits. You're only dealing the extra 25 damage after the first hit, and that second one is already a guaranteed kill without the extra 25. The Exosuit as it currently stands can take 7 standard Bites. Swarm knocks it down a whoppin' 6.
So what's it doing, other than providing a conditional Melee #4?
<!--quoteo(post=1860158:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 12 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- More damage from swarm -> more overkill damage for frenzy. They combine nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So does Melee #1, 2, and 3. They can combine nicely all they want, but if they're of little use by themselves then at the very least why waste design space with 2 separate abilities?
<!--quoteo(post=1860183:date=Jul 12 2011, 06:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 12 2011, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These are realy excellent changes. I would be surprised if they weren't modded if UWE didnt go this path. Tying the squad mechanic to med/ammo packs is ingenious and makes it actually useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually got quite a few of these changes implemented in my own project!
all this "balancing" for an unfinished game is sounding so preemptive in order to just satiate the few very vocal that i believe its all for nothing. bring in optimizations and content first, i say.
I just laughed so hard I spit out water all over my keyboard :c
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well still, adding that +25<b>%</b> is still quite life changing for fade and skulk attacks when the marines start getting armor upgrades. You kill with 2 hits instead of 3.
Just pop a hallway full of gas and you have a swarm party. Also found it convenient for taking down buildings with someone.
Although I guess they could be better. The "+25 damage" in evolve menu was disleading.
Just pop a hallway full of gas and you have a swarm party. Also found it convenient for taking down buildings with someone.
Although I guess they could be better. The "+25 damage" in evolve menu was disleading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a "major" tooltip error. Imagine Parasite hitting for 35 damage per shot, or 55 damage per Spike. :P
True, but that's why the aliens have the Melee/Armor upgrades.
My point is why bother coming up with a distinct and optional upgrade when it provides no additional value (beyond the 'damage') to the game? Swarm was intended to promote group tactics, but it simply doesn't in it's current implementation. So really it's just a cheap damage upgrade... Underwhelming.
Great ideas!
(removed the ones i dont agree on, or not in that version)
<!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->i would remove pres for the entire marine team. (ns1 style, or make another system for marines, atm you either have to make the weapons crappy or so expensive that you caant afford it at times you would need it to fast counter xyz)
PS: And change the GL to a real GL(more expensive), as lmg attatchment its useless. (you can recycle the gl attatchment with only one nade as pendant to the old ns1 nade with research)
all this "balancing" for an unfinished game is sounding so preemptive in order to just satiate the few very vocal that i believe its all for nothing. bring in optimizations and content first, i say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Made me laugh. I don't know why you're getting so angry at me, or indeed, why you value personal RFK so much.
I actually took this thread seriously and gave some honest suggestions, without any intention to troll.
But apparently my troll aura is too strong, and the lesser beings (you) got trolled regardless.