Sentry Design Discussion
thecowsaysmoo
Join Date: 2008-02-02 Member: 63557Members
Join Date: 2008-02-02 Member: 63557Members
So I'd like to propose an idea about sentries. While the new sentries look cool and all, their bulky design combined with 180degree firing makes securing locations very difficult and traffic jams are easily caused.
My suggestion would be to have 2 types of sentries.
<b>Type1</b>: the sentry the game already has, except make it do a little more damage and have a little more health.(only 2-3 per power node/area) It would also need to cost significantly more, and possibly have to be researched at the robo as well. This "High Powered" sentry would be for locking down entrances and long hallways.
<b>Type2</b>: NS1 style 360 degree turret, a very small sized turret, does very little damage, but can fire 360 degree and doesn't take up a lot of space, the role of this turret would simply be to protect buildings, they would not be powerful enough for attacking moves or taking down fades. These would be available early in game and for cheap so marines can at-least secure a couple of res towers before being overrun.
The type 2 sentry would serve as protecting the type1 sentries backs, and guarding important marine structures. They could be even small enough to be mounted on the sides of walls or ceilings(possibly). I have been playing commander for a few games recently, and having to place your turrets in a maze so that they are all protected from the back and still firing somewhere useful is very tedious. It would be nice if you could just drop a Type1 sentry and each entrance to a base and then place 3-4 type2 sentries around the base to protect it. That way at-least 1 skulk cant just find the way into the maze and knock down sentries 1 by 1.
Just an idea, maybe other people like the mechanic of only 180 degree sentries.
<img src="http://www.brywright.co.uk/gallery/albums/buildings/turret.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My suggestion would be to have 2 types of sentries.
<b>Type1</b>: the sentry the game already has, except make it do a little more damage and have a little more health.(only 2-3 per power node/area) It would also need to cost significantly more, and possibly have to be researched at the robo as well. This "High Powered" sentry would be for locking down entrances and long hallways.
<b>Type2</b>: NS1 style 360 degree turret, a very small sized turret, does very little damage, but can fire 360 degree and doesn't take up a lot of space, the role of this turret would simply be to protect buildings, they would not be powerful enough for attacking moves or taking down fades. These would be available early in game and for cheap so marines can at-least secure a couple of res towers before being overrun.
The type 2 sentry would serve as protecting the type1 sentries backs, and guarding important marine structures. They could be even small enough to be mounted on the sides of walls or ceilings(possibly). I have been playing commander for a few games recently, and having to place your turrets in a maze so that they are all protected from the back and still firing somewhere useful is very tedious. It would be nice if you could just drop a Type1 sentry and each entrance to a base and then place 3-4 type2 sentries around the base to protect it. That way at-least 1 skulk cant just find the way into the maze and knock down sentries 1 by 1.
Just an idea, maybe other people like the mechanic of only 180 degree sentries.
<img src="http://www.brywright.co.uk/gallery/albums/buildings/turret.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
and turret factory would define the limit of the turret placement, means you can't just spam them in the whole room but certain distance to the turret factory.
This would limit the turret spam, since it would be extremely costly keep building turret factories.
and turret factory would define the limit of the turret placement, means you can't just spam them in the whole room but certain distance to the turret factory.
This would limit the turret spam, since it would be extremely costly keep building turret factories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree I liked the old system better
I would not like to see the old NS1 turrets returning in any form, to be honest.
I'm pretty sure the whole point of the turret is to be <b>supplemental</b> defense, they aren't supposed to be effective alone. Hence why they have limited arcs, limited range, and windup times.
Even a single alien can typically dismantle unattended groups of turrets, by design. Turrets primarily exist to buy time for the marines to react to an attack, and to assist marines in defending against an attack. They can't, and shouldn't, be able to defend an area by themselves.
Adding turrets that can defend other turrets seems contrary to that design.
The only change I'd make is limiting the number of them based on how many comm chairs you have, and making them bigger and stronger so that you can spend less time placing them. As well as to make the limitations more distinct.
I agree that turret spam should be reduced. My suggestion is to slightly increase the damage (+5-10%) and cost of the turret (+5 TR). Also, I wouldn't be opposed to the turret being a researched item like phase gates tech. You must build the robo factory first and then spend 15 TR to research turret tech, with an additional 15 TR for each built turret. The range seems adequate as well as its health. Aliens are easily able to destroy them, especially when they are poorly placed. If damage is increased as well, the commander won't feel the need to spam them everywhere as they will be more effective (I think that turret spam is generally due to the lack of turret effectiveness, i.e. having more compensates for their relative weakness).
10 per cs.
Total marine domination.. 4cs 40 sentries. Pretty high, spells end for alien team.
5 per cs.
Total marine domination.. 4cs 20 sentries. Too low, can hardly cover the marine territory.
10 On first and 5 on every expansion.
Total marine domination.. 4cs 25 sentries. Fair enough.
Personally wanted a unit cap a long time ago when macs came in swarms but that seems about stopped these days.
Still want turret factories though, marines take control of rooms too fast. Usually have a turret built to cover people building more turrets.
They'd be significantly larger and more powerful, doing enough damage that you can't run past their field of view even as a fade (although you could potentially blink past it), but they retain their slow reaction speed so aliens know if they are running into the view of one. Also they get a laser sight so aliens can tell when they are entering their coverage and when they are targetted. They also would have health comparable to an IP to account for being generally more beefy. Essentially a sentry gun would be suicide to rush, but because there are very few of them available, you can always get around them by using your class abilities.
They would be excellent for blockading one corridor per CC, or two corridors with less effectiveness, or covering one base from a couple of angles, but they can't be used to lock down the whole map. They are also very useful for curtailing the spread of the new dynamic infestation which is going to be destroyable by conventional weapons.
The idea is that they would obstruct larger lifeforms from moving through certain areas, much like a door except you can place it anywhere, the downside of course is that it would be relatively easy for skulks or lerks to get behind them using vents and alternate access routes and take them out, given time. Fades could blink from cover to cover to get close enough to blink behind the sentry, necessitating marine support in defending against higher lifeforms. This helps to give mobile lifeforms a useful role in taking out marine blockades. You could also use them to cover a base although unless the room is very favourably shaped (like marine start on tram for example) it's going to be very hard to cover everywhere with only two sentries, giving attacking aliens room to hide. Also as you would be limited in the number of places you could position them, onos bone shields would be an effective hard counter to them.
In short, it makes sentries much less spammy, much more interesting as one being in an area drastically changes the way that area works for both sides, and effectively keeps skulks and lerks balanced with them right through the game. It also encourages marines to take and secure key junctions in the map with sentries, rather than just turtle in bases, as securing the junctions would help them capture more resources and still defend just as effectively.
If the marines are defending their base with sentries, attack their extractors, if they're defending their extractors, attack their base, if they're defending both, try to get behind their lines and attack their undefended rear bases. It makes sure there's always a weak point.
Frankly it is very boring to take down turrets and they are used in excessive amounts (resource amount flaw though)
People you should read my post on sentry spam lower down the page.
The problem is that Marines need sentries to cover the rear and push forward.
Spam is annoying and boring to tackle. The alternative is having fewer sentries, but a lot more powerful.
But to have that you need it so a Lerk can't destroy it by moving in and out of view and firing spikes. Or allow a situation whereby an alien can take them down alone if approaching from the front.
Therefore, implement a system that requires 2/3 classes to work together to take them down.
Such ad the gorge disabling structures temporarily with bilebomb allowing a damage advantage as well for other alien classes to finish them off.
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Also, to prevent lerks from popping in and out and firing the spikes is to have the sentry still focusing on the last position of the Alien for 2-3 seconds after.
That way the sentry will be looking at the last seen position of the lerk and fire instantaneously when the lerk comes out again.
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Also, to prevent lerks from popping in and out and firing the spikes is to have the sentry still focusing on the last position of the Alien for 2-3 seconds after.
That way the sentry will be looking at the last seen position of the lerk and fire instantaneously when the lerk comes out again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would help some, but the problem is not so much the reaction time of the sentry. The lerk can almost always find an angle behind a wall to snipe at..without ever triggering the turret to fire back. This is even if they are within turrets firing arc. Smart (and very patient) lerks can always take down a turret fortress given enough time. This is not something stronger or 360 turrets will fix. You would need to go into the code and alter/ifx turret LOS target acquisition somehow.
However, I would move lerk snipe to the second hive and make it a mutation choice in evolve menu (lower default lerk cost to compensate). If lerks want to snipe turrets, make them work for it at least.
Fade would still be a problem, but maybe their new slower attack will be less effective on turrets (if overall DPS is lower, which seems it could be). Also doors need to be better implemented so they are used in maps more often. They could be used to seal off areas to fades, requiring less turret spam and preventing the marines' front lines from not crumbling so easily.
I still think making turrets stronger (but cost more) is needed just to lower the amount of turrets placed, getting rid of the turret clutter and reduce the commander time spent maintaining them.
I agree that turret spam should be reduced. My suggestion is to slightly increase the damage (+5-10%) and cost of the turret (+5 TR). Also, I wouldn't be opposed to the turret being a researched item like phase gates tech. You must build the robo factory first and then spend 15 TR to research turret tech, with an additional 15 TR for each built turret. The range seems adequate as well as its health. Aliens are easily able to destroy them, especially when they are poorly placed. If damage is increased as well, the commander won't feel the need to spam them everywhere as they will be more effective (I think that turret spam is generally due to the lack of turret effectiveness, i.e. having more compensates for their relative weakness).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that turrets shouldn't be able to defend a whole area entirely by themselves like they seemed to be able to do NS1, but I do think they should be able to handle skulks a little better than they do. I'm also not a fan of making them researchable or costing more res. Marines already have a lot to spend res on early in games and I don't think they should have more reasons to not have any res.
Even though I say turrets shouldn't be able to defend an area by themselves, I think as it stands they're slightly under-powered. Because they have limited view it's extremely easy for a skulk to figure out a way to destroy them. I personally don't think it's right that I can fly through a marine base that's got around 10 sentries and start chomping on IPs as a skulk. I did it several times yesterday and only died when marines came running back to save marine start.
This might show some tradeoffs if MACs, Turrets, and ARCS came from the same capped count.
The count would be based off of hives/command chairs
But the units each thing would cost could vary on their power/usefulness
Turret = 1
MAC = 3 // Remember MACs will eventually be able to electrocute skulks and such.
ARC = 5
This would force commanders to recycle turrets to build an ARC or MAC if they reached their limit.
This would provide a very tweakable model to find balance once features are complete.
Still to many turrets?
Turret = 2
my 2 cents
+mines
who likes being killed at range by the scenery? At least if I die to a mine I had the opportunity not to stand on it.
1. I'll start off by saying that I like what power nodes bring to NS2. They make sense, and they add a cool atmospheric element to the game as well as strategic value. Power nodes practically function as "turret factories" for all marine structures -- once you take them out, all marine structures in that area stop working. Thus, I don't support adding turret factories for turrets because then marines have to ensure not only that the power is on, but also the turret factory. It would be a repetitive structure with no real value, only another nuisance for the marine team to defend.
2. I believe that turrets are spammed because they are cheap and ineffective. There is no point in placing one turret as it is very easy for the alien team to destroy. Two isn't much better. Thus, commanders feel they need to place at least 3 or 4 to add some defense to an area. Since they only cost 10 TR, this is possible. I think the easy solution is to make them cost more while being more powerful. Commanders won't have the res to drop them everywhere like before, and they also will not feel the need to spam them since they're more effective.
+ what Enhance89 said.
+ give us welders.
Macs are just expensive squishy too important bots. (since you cant repair anything without them)
+ remove the mac build menu - or drop the structure instantly like with the cc selected.
(usually it goes like this, i want to build something fast next to a marine - oh crap had the mac selected(mac runs out of the base and gets instakilled by 3-4 hydras, or something else), now i have to switch to the cc drop the structure + lost a mac)
Perhaps a second type of turret, 'tesla turret' (heh) that arcs electricity onto targets (so its a 360 degree hit)?
Definitely would like to see turrets improved so that you need to place fewer to be effective.
I've played a lot of Alien Swarm lately... the way sentry guns are handled in that makes me happy (large, devastating, limited ammo). Obviously having a sentry gun that tears a skulk apart in a single burst isn't going to be fun, but they should definitely be strong enough that getting in front of ONE of them is a bad idea. Having larger, heavier-caliber, more expensive sentry guns (possibly mobile, like ARCs, to allow for interesting assault/beachhead tactics?) would likely reduce the amount of turret spam being experienced, as you'd need only one object (and likely could afford only one object) to get the job done that we're currently doing with three.
Another possibility would be having turrets with "ammunition" based on available power. The turret could be described as a railgun type system that holds an effectively unlimited amount of actual projectiles (as they're small) but requires local power to power it. When powered, the turret would charge at a fairly good rate to 100% power, but wouldn't recharge faster than it can discharge when firing... this would allow for larger lifeforms like the Onos (when we get it) to wander in front of a turret farm, absorb that first huge fusillade of bullets, and then have the farm's rate of fire drop after 10-15 seconds as all of the turrets hit 0% power and have to rely on recharging (or whatever) to get their next burst off. Turrets that lose power from the local power node going down might still have enough battery power to rip off a few bursts, but without recharging available they're quickly offline once they start to fire (and could be coded to slowly lose power in a discharged environment due to "scanning," so that if the power is off for any significant amount of time, they go offline anyways).
Sure, to lock down every single corner of the room requires a lot of turrets, but YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT. Spend the res on other things! In this sense, I think commanders dropping weapons for marines should come from team res as a better use than sentries.
<!--quoteo(post=1855569:date=Jun 23 2011, 02:13 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 23 2011, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Yeah macs should basically be automated build/repair bots, you drop a structure near it and it builds it, if a structure near it gets damaged, they repair it, you don't need to micro it constantly.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and this
<!--quoteo(post=1855578:date=Jun 23 2011, 02:31 AM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Jun 23 2011, 02:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Perhaps a second type of turret, 'tesla turret' (heh) that arcs electricity onto targets (so its a 360 degree hit)?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->and this
<!--quoteo(post=1855708:date=Jun 23 2011, 12:38 PM:name=Hakujin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jun 23 2011, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Sure, to lock down every single corner of the room requires a lot of turrets, but YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->ahh but people do! I've lost count of the number of times where marines are so turtled in that they can't be overwhelmed, but also cannot expand. Had one like this which lasted nearly 3 hours. By the end the server was creaking due to the amount of turrets, infestation etc.
So perhaps a combination of all these.....
1) Turrets cost (a lot) more but are more powerful.
2) Turrets have a tesla upgrade. Basically a higher ranged electrify.
3) Turrets have ammunition which means the comm has to spend res in order to keep his farms operating. This will help the instances above whereby the rines have one res node.
4) Turrets remember their last alien detection and start their sweep in that area. That lerk that pops in and out of view will be in trouble.
5) Gorge can temporarily disable the tesla upgrade but not the default attack mode.