<!--quoteo(post=1854838:date=Jun 20 2011, 11:42 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 20 2011, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now the thing about five minute victories is that they aren't a challenge, they're a guess, you guess the enemy won't be prepared for them and if you guessed right, you win, if you guess wrong, you lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not so sure that's a good way to think about it. ANY strategy you pick is going to be a gamble, eg do you focus on spreading quickly (enemy can punish by hitting poorly defended targets) or securely holding a smaller area (enemy can take more resources and win by attrition), etc.
A large part of skill is in accurately predicting what your opponent will do; in FPS games this would be something like "alright he's after me, will he take the shorter path or the longer less predictable one? since he seemed pretty good at shooting i think he's smart and will take the longer, so i'll shoot a rocket there", which is still a guess. But an educated one.
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1854853:date=Jun 21 2011, 12:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 21 2011, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ehh, don't worry about it. I don't really care for challenge myself as much as I want engagement. Challenge can be engaging, but so can a lot of other things. Certainly rushing has never felt at all engaging to me, I don't do it even if I know it will win the game, no point, no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er you just don't understand the idea behind this strategy imo.
you just see that like an idiot rush thing but it's not.
<!--quoteo(post=1854899:date=Jun 21 2011, 07:36 AM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Jun 21 2011, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know if you have ever played Starcraft 2 but if you do your probably the guy who plays the novice maps and thats fine. But most people wants to play the reugular maps were rush is a posibility bacause this takes more of the player/team to always be on edge and scout for early attacks. Its quite satisfying planning a rush and executing it to perfection and its even more satisfying defending a well planned rush.
When the game gets out they could make it the same way SC2 did a novice mode for public and a regular mode for public and clanplay.
Novice maps are maps were there are rocks in the way that must be destroyed before you can attack you opponents base making it impossible to rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played like halfway through the campaign before I got unbelievably bored and haven't touched it since, I don't like starcraft. I also don't want NS2 to be anything like that antiquated throwback to the game design of 15 years ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1854925:date=Jun 21 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 21 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure that's a good way to think about it. ANY strategy you pick is going to be a gamble, eg do you focus on spreading quickly (enemy can punish by hitting poorly defended targets) or securely holding a smaller area (enemy can take more resources and win by attrition), etc.
A large part of skill is in accurately predicting what your opponent will do; in FPS games this would be something like "alright he's after me, will he take the shorter path or the longer less predictable one? since he seemed pretty good at shooting i think he's smart and will take the longer, so i'll shoot a rocket there", which is still a guess. But an educated one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's true, but rushes are by their very nature, complete and utter guesswork.
See if I sort of hang around the entrance to a room, shooting parasites at things, and a marine comes along. I can parasite him. He might shoot at me a bit, and I can hide round the corner. Now because I parasited him I know if he is coming to finish me off, and I also know where he saw me go, so once I hide round the corner, I can wallclimb up to the ceiling where he doesn't expect me to be, and then ambush him. I predict that he will chase after me and that he will expect me to go somewhere, because I know a little about human psychology and also the information he has available to him, and I can think what I might do in that situation. I don't guess as such, I predict based on my understanding of people and my knowledge of what he knows and the information my parasite gives me, what he will do.
Whereas any time you rush from the start, you don't know anything, you don't know what the marines are doing until you get there, and by the time you get there you're commited to the rush. So it boils entirely down to 'I guess the marines won't be in their base, so I'm going to rush it with aliens.'
If you guess right, you win, because there's nobody to defend. If you guess sort of right, you run into a couple of marines along the way because they took that path and a cpuple of you die before you get there and when you get to the base the rest of the team is close by coming back to stop the rush, and maybe you slow the marines down a bit but ultimately you all die, that's a draw. If you guess wrong, you run into the bulk of their force and get absolutely massacred and lose shortly afterwards.
In most situations, you're going to win or lose based on a guess, which is not challenging, it is not meaningful, it is not engaging, and it is not fun. If it was fun, I would be playing rock paper scissors, because that is what rushes entirely resemble. They do give you the chance to win quickly, and because they end the game quickly even if you lose, you can do it again next game if you want, although it will likely be less effective, but even so, if all you care about is the largest number of 'you win' notifications in the shortest amount of time, yes I can see the value in rushing.
If you enjoy playing the game however, the one with all the technology and buildings and strategy and power nodes and lifeforms and guns and all that stuff that the game is sort of sold on, I don't see the appeal.
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
Well anyway we move away from the subject.
If you want to complain about this strategy Chris, I invite you to create a new thread.
The main thing of this thread was to talk about this strategy (yes it is) and how to counter it (not ouin ouin it's not fair ouin ouin)
<!--quoteo(post=1854585:date=Jun 20 2011, 12:23 AM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jun 20 2011, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>not to complain about this strategy and beg for its removal, but to discuss the balance of this strategy, before coming to any final conclusion</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main thing of this thread was to talk about this strategy (yes it is) and how to counter it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's true.
Gorgerushes can be greatly defeated by shooting the Gorges. Usually everyone gets it pretty fast, so there's also no "unprepared" marine team. Everyone has usually the time to get back when it's called out. What happens then is a normal battle. Just with Gorges vs. lmgs. And it's funny.
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1855181:date=Jun 21 2011, 11:26 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 21 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this really does prove to be an imbalanced tactic, don't forget the introduction of Gorge Pustules will make Gorge's more punishable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right, like all features have not been implemented already this strategy will maybe not work as well in futur
Great post smaug. You pretty much hit the nail on the head here:
"Part of what makes an E-sport game so exciting is the potential for one side to do an all-in move from the start, such as this gorge rush (if we were to compare it to SC2, we would probably compare it to the 7-roach rush opening), and that in itself makes me incredibly stoked to play this game at full release. However, infinitely healing hydras and gorges at the foot of your base is a bit intolerable, especially when all you have are AR's."
I don't see any problems here, not yet. If and when Gorge rushing happens a lot, then we can address it. Oh, and we most certainly are hoping to make NS2 E-sport material.
Comments
It's probably even less viable than NS1 since shotguns are even more easily attainable.
I'm not so sure that's a good way to think about it. ANY strategy you pick is going to be a gamble, eg do you focus on spreading quickly (enemy can punish by hitting poorly defended targets) or securely holding a smaller area (enemy can take more resources and win by attrition), etc.
A large part of skill is in accurately predicting what your opponent will do; in FPS games this would be something like "alright he's after me, will he take the shorter path or the longer less predictable one? since he seemed pretty good at shooting i think he's smart and will take the longer, so i'll shoot a rocket there", which is still a guess. But an educated one.
Er you just don't understand the idea behind this strategy imo.
you just see that like an idiot rush thing but it's not.
When the game gets out they could make it the same way SC2 did a novice mode for public and a regular mode for public and clanplay.
Novice maps are maps were there are rocks in the way that must be destroyed before you can attack you opponents base making it impossible to rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played like halfway through the campaign before I got unbelievably bored and haven't touched it since, I don't like starcraft. I also don't want NS2 to be anything like that antiquated throwback to the game design of 15 years ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1854925:date=Jun 21 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 21 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure that's a good way to think about it. ANY strategy you pick is going to be a gamble, eg do you focus on spreading quickly (enemy can punish by hitting poorly defended targets) or securely holding a smaller area (enemy can take more resources and win by attrition), etc.
A large part of skill is in accurately predicting what your opponent will do; in FPS games this would be something like "alright he's after me, will he take the shorter path or the longer less predictable one? since he seemed pretty good at shooting i think he's smart and will take the longer, so i'll shoot a rocket there", which is still a guess. But an educated one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's true, but rushes are by their very nature, complete and utter guesswork.
See if I sort of hang around the entrance to a room, shooting parasites at things, and a marine comes along. I can parasite him. He might shoot at me a bit, and I can hide round the corner. Now because I parasited him I know if he is coming to finish me off, and I also know where he saw me go, so once I hide round the corner, I can wallclimb up to the ceiling where he doesn't expect me to be, and then ambush him. I predict that he will chase after me and that he will expect me to go somewhere, because I know a little about human psychology and also the information he has available to him, and I can think what I might do in that situation. I don't guess as such, I predict based on my understanding of people and my knowledge of what he knows and the information my parasite gives me, what he will do.
Whereas any time you rush from the start, you don't know anything, you don't know what the marines are doing until you get there, and by the time you get there you're commited to the rush. So it boils entirely down to 'I guess the marines won't be in their base, so I'm going to rush it with aliens.'
If you guess right, you win, because there's nobody to defend.
If you guess sort of right, you run into a couple of marines along the way because they took that path and a cpuple of you die before you get there and when you get to the base the rest of the team is close by coming back to stop the rush, and maybe you slow the marines down a bit but ultimately you all die, that's a draw.
If you guess wrong, you run into the bulk of their force and get absolutely massacred and lose shortly afterwards.
In most situations, you're going to win or lose based on a guess, which is not challenging, it is not meaningful, it is not engaging, and it is not fun. If it was fun, I would be playing rock paper scissors, because that is what rushes entirely resemble. They do give you the chance to win quickly, and because they end the game quickly even if you lose, you can do it again next game if you want, although it will likely be less effective, but even so, if all you care about is the largest number of 'you win' notifications in the shortest amount of time, yes I can see the value in rushing.
If you enjoy playing the game however, the one with all the technology and buildings and strategy and power nodes and lifeforms and guns and all that stuff that the game is sort of sold on, I don't see the appeal.
If you want to complain about this strategy Chris, I invite you to create a new thread.
The main thing of this thread was to talk about this strategy (yes it is) and how to counter it (not ouin ouin it's not fair ouin ouin)
<!--quoteo(post=1854585:date=Jun 20 2011, 12:23 AM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jun 20 2011, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>not to complain about this strategy and beg for its removal, but to discuss the balance of this strategy, before coming to any final conclusion</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's true.
Gorgerushes can be greatly defeated by shooting the Gorges. Usually everyone gets it pretty fast, so there's also no "unprepared" marine team. Everyone has usually the time to get back when it's called out. What happens then is a normal battle. Just with Gorges vs. lmgs.
And it's funny.
you're right, like all features have not been implemented already this strategy will maybe not work as well in futur
ahah i'm not from ns1 but this one is very funny
"Part of what makes an E-sport game so exciting is the potential for one side to do an all-in move from the start, such as this gorge rush (if we were to compare it to SC2, we would probably compare it to the 7-roach rush opening), and that in itself makes me incredibly stoked to play this game at full release. However, infinitely healing hydras and gorges at the foot of your base is a bit intolerable, especially when all you have are AR's."
I don't see any problems here, not yet. If and when Gorge rushing happens a lot, then we can address it. Oh, and we most certainly are hoping to make NS2 E-sport material.