<!--quoteo(post=1851152:date=Jun 10 2011, 12:39 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jun 10 2011, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Optimisation is left to the end, not because that's when it starts getting shown to the public, but because that's the best time to do it in terms of development efficiency.
If you do your optimisation before features are added, then every time a big new thing is included there's a good chance it will break some of the work you've done before. So instead of seeing a sudden, PR-tastic leap in performance, you'd get repeated fluctuations in performance, which I wouldn't say is better for PR than slow, steady improvement.
I don't think doing what you're suggesting will be as beneficial, over and above steady improvements, as you seem to think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at the fixes Matso did those few changes took the game from being unplayable to enjoyable who cares if in 3months time they become redundant it got UNW more customers and praise and really did it take him that long to do?? couldn't someone at UNW have implemented a similar solution instead of some other minor game play features?
I still think this mentality of developing like a traditional game needs to change because quiet frankly the development model being used has never really been done before so I think perhaps the approach needs to be tweaked...
Of course there is development efficiency argument but your not in closed development environment every decision you make has a marketing and business impact which you need to balance against the technical.
Honestly there is enough "game" there now heck there is more "game" there then many other titles that get released it just needs to be faster and tighter...
fsfodukJoin Date: 2004-04-09Member: 27810Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
This thread makes me think of this blog post <a href="http://msinilo.pl/blog/?p=483" target="_blank">http://msinilo.pl/blog/?p=483</a> even though he strongly of the opinion optimizing throughout the project, he concedes what Insane is saying any gains now could easily lost with some code changes
<!--quoteo(post=1851161:date=Jun 10 2011, 01:17 AM:name=fsfod)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fsfod @ Jun 10 2011, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread makes me think of this blog post <a href="http://msinilo.pl/blog/?p=483" target="_blank">http://msinilo.pl/blog/?p=483</a> even though he strongly of the opinion optimizing throughout the project, he concedes what Insane is saying any gains now could easily lost with some code changes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He is also of the conclusion even though some of the optimizations will be lost you end up with a better product in the end.
People are to affriad to throw things out there is absolutely nothing wrong with ditching things often it's just a stepping stone to something much better for example the fade blink.
Just remember with NS2 as it stands you have over 20,000 people who have paid for a product and it's only playable for a very small percentage (just look at the number of populated servers)...
<!--quoteo(post=1851158:date=Jun 9 2011, 11:04 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Jun 9 2011, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at the fixes Matso did those few changes took the game from being unplayable to enjoyable who cares if in 3months time they become redundant it got UNW more customers and praise and really did it take him that long to do?? couldn't someone at UNW have implemented a similar solution instead of some other minor game play features?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to rag on you specifically, but does anyone else find it hilarious that EVERYONE has developed their own version of the acronym for Unknown Worlds Entertainment?
They HAVE been making performance jumps here and there. They also NEED to check off those big features off the list to get to the end.
A friend of mine (also a programmer) had not spin up this game in awhile (months). I told him about the big patch coming and that some performance improvements had come. After playing it he declared it playable but not finished.
I would rather THEY continue making these incremental steps forward in both performance and content until the content is complete.
Then they can focus entirely on performance and polish.
PS: I usually use UW because I figure they want to be called Unknown Worlds....but i might be wrong. I always called iD Software ...iD. :-)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
i agree with the company's current strategy, however that being said there are devs like Wolfire who have a smooth engine that they optimized for a year or two before adding content and combat code etc and it seems to be working out more than fine for them. ::shrugs:: just a thought that perhaps there are multiple ways to skin a cat. or occlude one. :)
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851165:date=Jun 9 2011, 08:41 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jun 9 2011, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To clarify, we are optimising throughout the project as well; what I'm saying is that the big optimisation binge should be at the end of the cycle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't this pretty standard in game development? The difference with UWE/NS2 is that we get to see the pre-optimization binge part, where most game studios wait until their game is essentially feature complete before releasing it to the public.
However, I'd actually like to see UWE spend some time on features for the alien side. The marine side seems to have gotten most of the love and attention (especially in the last patch) in the beta so far, that the alien side is a bit bare by comparison.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1851234:date=Jun 9 2011, 11:18 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 9 2011, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The marine side seems to have gotten most of the love and attention (especially in the last patch) in the beta so far, that the alien side is a bit bare by comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113685&view=findpost&p=1851197" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1851197</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that marines typically lose does absolutely nothing to invalidate the statement you are trying to invalidate. He said Marines have been getting most of the love and the Aliens side has not received equal attention as of late.
<!--quoteo(post=1851287:date=Jun 9 2011, 04:07 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 9 2011, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that marines typically lose does absolutely nothing to invalidate the statement you are trying to invalidate. He said Marines have been getting most of the love and the Aliens side has not received equal attention as of late.
And he's not wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, but if the marines lose all the time, that would stand to say they need *more* love. Whether it's adding a new toy or just nailing that hit detection right now, the aliens don't need to get any stronger. Plus, the aliens just got an amazing new blink as well as got their armor upgrades working properly for the first time.
<!--quoteo(post=1851353:date=Jun 9 2011, 08:00 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 9 2011, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's fine, but if the marines lose all the time, that would stand to say they need *more* love. Whether it's adding a new toy or just nailing that hit detection right now, the aliens don't need to get any stronger. Plus, the aliens just got an amazing new blink as well as got their armor upgrades working properly for the first time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851353:date=Jun 9 2011, 05:00 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 9 2011, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's fine, but if the marines lose all the time, that would stand to say they need *more* love. Whether it's adding a new toy or just nailing that hit detection right now, the aliens don't need to get any stronger. Plus, the aliens just got an amazing new blink as well as got their armor upgrades working properly for the first time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think working on the alien side would balance the game better. In particular, I think getting the pustules in would be extremely helpful since flamethrowers are now much rarer.
Comments
If you do your optimisation before features are added, then every time a big new thing is included there's a good chance it will break some of the work you've done before. So instead of seeing a sudden, PR-tastic leap in performance, you'd get repeated fluctuations in performance, which I wouldn't say is better for PR than slow, steady improvement.
I don't think doing what you're suggesting will be as beneficial, over and above steady improvements, as you seem to think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at the fixes Matso did those few changes took the game from being unplayable to enjoyable who cares if in 3months time they become redundant it got UNW more customers and praise and really did it take him that long to do?? couldn't someone at UNW have implemented a similar solution instead of some other minor game play features?
I still think this mentality of developing like a traditional game needs to change because quiet frankly the development model being used has never really been done before so I think perhaps the approach needs to be tweaked...
Of course there is development efficiency argument but your not in closed development environment every decision you make has a marketing and business impact which you need to balance against the technical.
Honestly there is enough "game" there now heck there is more "game" there then many other titles that get released it just needs to be faster and tighter...
He is also of the conclusion even though some of the optimizations will be lost you end up with a better product in the end.
People are to affriad to throw things out there is absolutely nothing wrong with ditching things often it's just a stepping stone to something much better for example the fade blink.
Just remember with NS2 as it stands you have over 20,000 people who have paid for a product and it's only playable for a very small percentage (just look at the number of populated servers)...
Not to rag on you specifically, but does anyone else find it hilarious that EVERYONE has developed their own version of the acronym for Unknown Worlds Entertainment?
They also NEED to check off those big features off the list to get to the end.
A friend of mine (also a programmer) had not spin up this game in awhile (months).
I told him about the big patch coming and that some performance improvements had come.
After playing it he declared it playable but not finished.
I would rather THEY continue making these incremental steps forward in both performance and content
until the content is complete.
Then they can focus entirely on performance and polish.
PS: I usually use UW because I figure they want to be called Unknown Worlds....but i might be wrong.
I always called iD Software ...iD. :-)
Isn't this pretty standard in game development? The difference with UWE/NS2 is that we get to see the pre-optimization binge part, where most game studios wait until their game is essentially feature complete before releasing it to the public.
However, I'd actually like to see UWE spend some time on features for the alien side. The marine side seems to have gotten most of the love and attention (especially in the last patch) in the beta so far, that the alien side is a bit bare by comparison.
uhh... no?
marine always lose
need exosuit.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113685&view=findpost&p=1851197" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1851197</a>
marine always lose
need exosuit.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113685&view=findpost&p=1851197" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1851197</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that marines typically lose does absolutely nothing to invalidate the statement you are trying to invalidate.
He said Marines have been getting most of the love and the Aliens side has not received equal attention as of late.
And he's not wrong.
He said Marines have been getting most of the love and the Aliens side has not received equal attention as of late.
And he's not wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, but if the marines lose all the time, that would stand to say they need *more* love. Whether it's adding a new toy or just nailing that hit detection right now, the aliens don't need to get any stronger. Plus, the aliens just got an amazing new blink as well as got their armor upgrades working properly for the first time.
Marines will be getting exo suits and jet packs.
Actually, I think working on the alien side would balance the game better. In particular, I think getting the pustules in would be extremely helpful since flamethrowers are now much rarer.