The New Marine Tech Tree

KuBaN

<div class="IPBDescription">And why I still have beef</div>With the new Tech Tree upcoming, and it's new features soon to follow, I figure it's as good a time as any to point out a few things.

A lot of the "Unlock Tech" Researches are, in many cases, either redundant or unneeded, and lead to an unnecessarily confusing Tech Tree.

I'm alright with individual Weapon Tech Research (access to all weapons from an Armory or Advanced Armory would ruin pacing), and Weapon/Structures upgrades like MAC Mines, Exo Jumpjets, GL Nerve Gas, but needing to research Phase Gates and ARCs seem about as arbitrary and redundant as when we had to research "Tier 2 Research". You've already purchased and built a structure specifically to access this Structure/Tech, now you have to purchase some arbitrary research to Unlock it? But, wait, that's only for some Structures/Techs!

Why are we using this confusing and outdated progression model?

It seems simple enough to get away from these Redundant Researches; <b>more structure dependence</b>:
<img src="http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4295/marinetechtreev40nocost.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Note: Structures are the only Prerequisites, so they are the only things unlocking Tech (though the arrows appear to be coming from specific Tech within a Structure, they all originate from the Structure itself). Blue arrows indicate a Structure unlock, while Grey arrows indicate a Tech unlock.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Here's another version <a href="http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2273/marinetechtreev40.gif" target="_blank">with T.Res costs</a> to more easily illustrate how we can dictate Tier levels by res costs. The grey costs along the arrow lines are the minimum costs to get to that point.

I believe a hierarchy like this would provide more depth and strategy to the game than the currently too-linear tree. Any objections?

OutlawDr

I have no objections on ditching a tech-point and tier based tech tree. Thats the way the devs are heading anyway it looks...for marines at least. Right now the marine tech tree is boring, and yours does look more interesting. I also have no objections in using this (or something similar) as a base for a new marines tech tree and tweaking from there.

jkflipflop

I dont like how you need to build at least 2 structures before the comm gets medpacks.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1850282:date=Jun 6 2011, 12:12 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ Jun 6 2011, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont like how you need to build at least 2 structures before the comm gets medpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Any objective reason, or just a preference?

jkflipflop

<!--quoteo(post=1850526:date=Jun 7 2011, 12:41 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 7 2011, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any objective reason, or just a preference?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I like that the comm always has healing power from the get-go. Standing around with the red screen of death sucks.

marsvin

<!--quoteo(post=1850534:date=Jun 7 2011, 10:14 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ Jun 7 2011, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like that the comm always has healing power from the get-go. Standing around with the red screen of death sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Agreed. Linking it to the armory would be ok but requiring the arms lab as well seems a bit much. Almost forces the comm to go early arms. You're probably going to build it early anyway but it feels like it would discourage experimenting with different build orders.

Then again not every comm is a medspammer I guess ^^

LORFCASTER

I like the idea of not having medpacks immediately at the very very beginning of the game. Would reward careful marine(s) and reward aliens by allowing small levels of damage (i.e parasite or bite and evade/hide tactics) to accumulate on marines. Would add more excitement/pressure at the beginning of the game if the marine team decided to go a strategy that requires a delay'd arms lab.

I understand what some people are saying about restricting commander -> marines support, i belive the amount of time marines will be without an armslab in a fresh game will be minimal, which makes time without medpacks more 'intense' while not being frustrating.
I <u>do not</u> think this falls under being inappropriately restrictive

Only thing im unsure of is if this would allow aliens to more easily disable the marine commanders ability to drop medpacks at any point of the game. Would this even be a problem ? or would it add more strategy?

Edit : VERY happy at the prospect of the arms lab returning to NS2. I was actually legitimately sad when i first found out the arms lab would not be included(i believe). I loved seeing many different types of buildings in NS1.... Building positioning, deploying mines on priority buildings, targeting specific structures as alien, and, being able to gather information as a marine (or alien) simply by looking at what buildings have been constructed and what their current status is...
I enjoy'd building and defending unique base construction styles (such as: scattering your buildings throughout an open-concept room or, tightly grouping them together in more of a turtle style)

Zek

I don't like the idea of having upgrades for specific guns/gear that the commander has to unlock. That's too much micromanagement IMO. It's enough that he has to upgrade the ability for me use that weapon, I don't want to also have to worry about whether or not he's bought the alt-fire yet. I think the only special upgrades should be for things the commander is using himself, i.e. his command chair abilities, upgrades for structures/MACs/ARCs, etc. In NS1 the commander's tech tree was very simple and straightforward, which allowed him to focus more on tactical decisions and combat support. That's the way it should stay IMO, with just a little more depth to compensate for not having to worry about equipment distribution.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1850597:date=Jun 7 2011, 06:40 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 7 2011, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the idea of having upgrades for specific guns/gear that the commander has to unlock. That's too much micromanagement IMO. It's enough that he has to upgrade the ability for me use that weapon, I don't want to also have to worry about whether or not he's bought the alt-fire yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alt fires are in effect additional weapons. If you're researching weapons, it doesn't seem too unreasonable that you'd need to research their upgrades, but I don't really have strong feelings about it either way. I put the individual upgrades up there assuming that this was to be the default behavior.

<!--quoteo(post=1850597:date=Jun 7 2011, 06:40 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 7 2011, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 the commander's tech tree was very simple and straightforward, which allowed him to focus more on tactical decisions and combat support. That's the way it should stay IMO, with just a little more depth to compensate for not having to worry about equipment distribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I'd prefer they create an environment wherein both Tactical, Combat-oriented roles and the more traditional RTS Commander roles are both distinct and equally viable in their own right.

FocusedWolf

Blast radius upgrade for Gl. Now you have to run even farther when bouncy delay grenades come back to the shooter.

Where's explode on impact and high-explosive tips? I bet the tear gas grenades are bouncy + 10x the delay to explode and cause friendly fire to the shooter xD

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1850662:date=Jun 7 2011, 08:36 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 7 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blast radius upgrade for Gl. Now you have to run even farther when bouncy delay grenades come back to the shooter.

Where's explode on impact and high-explosive tips? I bet the tear gas grenades are bouncy + 10x the delay to explode and cause friendly fire to the shooter xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't make up those Researches, if that's what you're implying. Took em straight from the Lua files.

Zek

<!--quoteo(post=1850616:date=Jun 7 2011, 06:16 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 7 2011, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'd prefer they create an environment wherein both Tactical, Combat-oriented roles and the more traditional RTS Commander roles are both distinct and equally viable in their own right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just a fancy way of saying that one guy has to do it all, which makes the job too difficult IMO. Commanding shouldn't be balanced to keep veteran Starcraft players busy, it should be balanced to make sure every team can have a competent commander.

FocusedWolf

<!--quoteo(post=1850682:date=Jun 7 2011, 09:21 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 7 2011, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't make up those Researches, if that's what you're implying. Took em straight from the Lua files.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Not at all.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1850688:date=Jun 7 2011, 09:45 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 7 2011, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's just a fancy way of saying that one guy has to do it all, which makes the job too difficult IMO. Commanding shouldn't be balanced to keep veteran Starcraft players busy, it should be balanced to make sure every team can have a competent commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just a fancy way of saying you reject the concept of Multiple Commanders and don't care to try and facilitate them.

Quovatis

Armor/Weapon upgrades need to take longer (especially for aliens). It's too easy to get L3 armor/weapons within just a few minutes.

wulf

<!--quoteo(post=1850558:date=Jun 7 2011, 01:54 PM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Jun 7 2011, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Linking it to the armory would be ok but requiring the arms lab as well seems a bit much. Almost forces the comm to go early arms. You're probably going to build it early anyway but it feels like it would discourage experimenting with different build orders.

Then again not every comm is a medspammer I guess ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Normally the starting res only allowed you to fruitfully pursue obs from the getgo, or arms from the beginning. So this may not be a completely analogous judgement since the games are different, but tying meds to armslab would discourage obs/gate rush.

Harimau

I'm keen.