D/M/S/ (X)
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Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Members
Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Alien tech model</div>I'm sure this has been discussed before, but re Charlie's tweet. The biggest issues with the current alien tech tree are:
-It can't handle lifeform specialization, ala NS1.
-It creates a symmetrical tech model for both sides.
Reintroducing an x/x/x model would solve both of these.
If UW want to keep all of crag/whip/shade/shift as chambers, they could either use a "choose 3" model or an "x/x/x/x" model.
Either of which creates some excellent variation, since x/x/x models allow for more powerful and varied upgrades.
-It can't handle lifeform specialization, ala NS1.
-It creates a symmetrical tech model for both sides.
Reintroducing an x/x/x model would solve both of these.
If UW want to keep all of crag/whip/shade/shift as chambers, they could either use a "choose 3" model or an "x/x/x/x" model.
Either of which creates some excellent variation, since x/x/x models allow for more powerful and varied upgrades.
Comments
This is the post I made in the twitter thread (Sorry I'm lazy and tired):
tl;dr: "A completely arbitrary fix would be to allow only 1 type of chamber at tier1 but then all chambers + fade at tier2 and then at tier3 allow onos / mature forms of chambers ? You're not going to get all the upgrades at once because you're still limited by team resources, but the options open up in the mid-game.
e: also this way you still get to mess around with having gorge linked to crag and lerk linked to whip, which is an idea I've come to respect more and more."
<!--QuoteBegin-MuYeah+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--quoteo(post=1846666:date=May 17 2011, 03:07 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ May 17 2011, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a fan of the traditional D/M/S teching system. This leads to very repetitive and linear strategies. I loved NS1 and all, but the games always ended up following the same one or two meta game strategies. There was small variations in the way each team teched up, but the overall meta game always followed the same path.
There has to be better ways to implement alien teching and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was actually because maps weren't particularly suited to them and JPs ensured that aliens had to have celerity no matter what by hive2. ns_tanith is a great example of pre-jetpack diversity in alien strategy. If the map editor were as easy to use as something like the StarCraft2 editor then we would have seen much wider usage of things like the Chem Trans/Acidic vent where a DC could heal both RTs but at the cost of using the vent.
Linking chambers to hive is not necessarily a bad idea. Look at the re-haul of the talent trees in WoW for cataclysm: they pruned out all the ###### talents and made it so you specialise completely in one, with a little variety left over later. The alternative was a confusing hodge-podge of being allowed to pick any random ######combo but really complete specialisation was best in most situations. Locking players into a style of play for a period of time can work and be helpful.
I rather prefer the idea of aliens specialising in X direction completely as compared to getting a small incremental increase in each subset at a time. The marines get A1/W1/A2/W2 and the aliens get more specialisation, it helps increase diversity between the two sides. If implemented correctly I think the traditional D/M/S style could work. For instance, if you start off by going heavy harassment (MC for example) your gameplan would be keep marines penned in and take map control, cutting off reinforcements, spore spamming to deplete res & so on. DC would be about taking them head on with gorge support. By mid-game you're going to need to have widened the scope of your tech to deal with a wider range of strats. The only issue is the linkage of tier2 and 3 to tech points on the map. If the marines are entrenched in your third techpoint and you don't have the correct combo of chambers you could have made it much worse for yourself. I suppose that is down to the tech options available at that point, though.
A completely arbitrary fix would be to allow only 1 type of chamber at tier1 but then all chambers + fade at tier2 and then at tier3 allow onos / mature forms of chambers ? You're not going to get all the upgrades at once because you're still limited by team resources, but the options open up in the mid-game.
e: also this way you still get to mess around with having gorge linked to crag and lerk linked to whip, which is an idea I've come to respect more and more.
<!--QuoteBegin-McGlaspie+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll admit it's been a while, but isn't that what NS1 did?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first chamber type dropped for each hive would lock it to that type only (you could only build that type of chamber until you got a new, "un-teched" hive). So hive1 you had MC only, hive2 you'd have MC/SC only and hive3 MC/SC/DC or whatever order you'd like. Because of the metagame people would pick it in that order every time, though, because focus and celerity were so bloody good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Build 3 x a chamber and it will let you get another type of chamber and so on...
That way you still have to make a conscious choice in what order you pick the chambers they are also decoupled from hives and it allows the devs to have more then 3 types of chambers...
Build 3 x a chamber and it will let you get another type of chamber and so on...
That way you still have to make a conscious choice in what order you pick the chambers they are also decoupled from hives and it allows the devs to have more then 3 types of chambers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could go with this compromise. It still works off specialization, but it still allows freedom from the traditional hive tech tying.
How about instead of three chambers though, you have to have a mature chamber before moving on to the next one.
How about instead of three chambers though, you have to have a mature chamber before moving on to the next one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of a tech tree, it becomes more of a tech cycle? That actually sounds pretty cool.
So basically, you can start at any of the three chambers based on the map, and work your way around to the others. You just have to invest enough into the first choice to consider it as fulfilling a prerequisite.
What would really make this model work is exactly what the prerequisite comes down to. Is it 3 chambers? 5 chambers? If it's a mature chamber, what tech do you need to unlock that?
What happens if your only mature chamber gets taken out? Can you still build the next type? If not, are you still considered "locked in" to that type even after the mature status is restored? Do both types of mature have to be up before the third can come in, or only a mature of the second type? Are you still able to unlock them via 3 hives, or are you forced into this mature prereq?
Lot of questions to think about, but I think this could be a great start at something close to NS1 but still searching for improvement.
Gameplay would relatively be the same, alien class being unlocked by structure wouldn't work nearly as well, and it was be nigh impossible as a Marine to understand which chamber they decided to upgrade. Also it would reduce the overall strategic creativity of commanders by letting them use mostly everything from the beginning.
I like the 1 chamber type per hive idea because it would show the alien's progression till they reached their max capabilities. Having their gameplay styles evolve during the course of the match. Slowly becoming a well rounded powerful force.
Gameplay would relatively be the same, alien class being unlocked by structure wouldn't work nearly as well, and it was be nigh impossible as a Marine to understand which chamber they decided to upgrade. Also it would reduce the overall strategic creativity of commanders by letting them use mostly everything from the beginning.
I like the 1 chamber type per hive idea because it would show the alien's progression till they reached their max capabilities. Having their gameplay styles evolve during the course of the match. Slowly becoming a well rounded powerful force.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't let them use them all from the beginning by any means. If the alien chamber requirements cost roughly the same or more than setting up a hive, then the timeline should be unaffected. The only difference would be it provides another option if they have trouble expanding.
1 chamber per hive limits the game design to much and means you can only really have 3 types of chambers locks down the game to much for future development...
Perhaps mature chambers could have a different graphic to signify their importance?
There is still a lot to work out with my idea as Deadzone noted but i think its got pretty solid footing.
Additional hives could replace the Melee / Defence upgrades each hive gives a passive defensive damage and attack bonus in addition to extra spawn points and infestation points...
I'm not sure about extra hives unlocking additional alien abilities but i guess that is open to testing.
They could add additional structures to each upgrade chamber. And even add some that require combinations of chambers.
With the whip as the lone chamber that you can always get and always be able to upgrade damage with.
Also it isn't limiting it's promoting different styles, and at the 3rd hive you would unlock all the chambers and everything will be fine once more.
Can still hang however many upgrades/tech off a chamber (NS1). So there's room for 12 tech at the moment presuming 3 "upgrades" per chamber. Chamber upgrades are a bit ugly though.
Whether you'd ignore their contribution to tech, upgrade creates a chamber ability. Or whether 3 upgraded chambers provide an extra benefit and/or level. Would make the aliens much more protective of chambers, if you could loose the upgrade as well.
I don't get this. Years of NS1 prove otherwise. How many NS1 games do you see veer from the movement, sensory, defense meta game progression. You're forcing players into a meta game of expanding as fast as they can to tech up. For every moment they aren't expanding to secure new hives they're falling further behind in the game. This isn't diversity to me. If they instead want to focus on resources and not expand immediatly, they really can't or they'll loose. There is a reason the beginning of every NS1 game was a rush to secure the most critical hive.
All we would be doing is copying these same mechanics, but expecting some different result. The extras hives will help some, but every game will come down too and be decided on securing the third hive.
All we would be doing is copying these same mechanics, but expecting some different result. The extras hives will help some, but every game will come down too and be decided on securing the third hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you.
A pure D/M/S system is not the best way imo, because there will be no variation in the build order.
First the crag, then the shift and at last the shade .... like in NS1.
I prefer either this:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about instead of three chambers though, you have to have a mature chamber before moving on to the next one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or this<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An idea on it. Mass +1C, Colony+2C. So you can evolve a hive to get 3 cambers or hold another TP for more chamber slots.There could also be 4 chambers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..so the aliens would need only 2 hivemasses to get all 3 chambers. (or 3 hives)
BTW. IF UWE goes with the x/x/x system, I think it is better to keep the whip out of it so the alien commander can place it independently.
everything is balanced.
that said, please dont lock any chambers. it just limits variation
Not really. It was common tactic in competitive gaming to go late second hive. It has been the most obvious tactical error in public to focus on hives and not on RTs.
so i would not say that a rush on 2nd hive was the wrong tactic, it worked for public play.
edit: forgot to mention fades who simply suck and actually just wasting the ressources. there was no guarantee for public play that you have decent fades in your team. but as a skulk with leap, it didnt matter so much if you get killed all the time since sometimes you also kill marines during your suicide rushes.