Why Is Kharaa Always Losing?
relsan
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3720Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3720Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">on frags that is...</div> No offense but a lot noobs have the wrong idea about telling whether they are losing the battle.
#1 THIS IS NOT COUNTERSTRIKE. You cannot tell who is winning by the frag counts.
#2 In any NS game, marines almost ALWAYS have more frags and less deaths than the aliens. This means absolutely nothing.
Here's the scenario:
2 marines find a resource node and start building a resource. 4 skulks come and attack. One marine kills 3 skulks. (3 - 0) The other dies immeadiately. (3 - 1) The last skulk kills the other marine and eats the resource tower. (3 - 2). The commander sends four troops next time. They get the resource tower up but the skulks attack again. All the skulks die but not before getting 2 marines (7 - 4) The remaining two marines start setting up a turret factory. The skulks come back and one marine kills 2 skulks and dies. (9 - 5) The other marine kills one and dies (10 - 6). The final skulk eats the turret factory and gets half way through the resource tower when 2 more marines show up and kill him. (11 - 6) Neither marine remembered to bring a welder so those two marines work on getting up another turret factory. They get it up and start working on the turrets when three skulks show up. They kill both marines and eat the factory (11 - 8). Then they start eating the resource chamber which is already half dead. One marine shows up and kills two before dying himself (13 - 9). The final skulk finishes off the resource tower, eats the uninstalled turret, and leaves.
The score is 13 - 9 and the marines have gained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the exchange. Meanwhile at the same time on the other side of the map, 2 gorges were able to set up 4 resource chambers and start work on a new hive! The frags MEAN NOTHING because the aliens are about to get fades and the marines still only have one resource tower. How can you tell whose winning? Well, the aliens have more resources and a new tower. The marines were able to fortify their base but they still haven't gotten any new resources. I'd say the aliens are winning.
But then two noob aliens run into the marine base because they can't find any outposts and they get owned by a slew of turrets (15 - 9) They look up at the score and say "It's hopeless. They are owning us. Why does this always happen?" They leave and now its 4 aliens to 6 marines. Multiply this scenario by 2 or 3 and you get your typical NS game. But even in this scenario the aliens have a very good chance of winning.
Conclusion:
I don't know how many games I've played as alien where our team was playing smart and we were slowly advancing on the marines when a couple noobs get themselves killed by some marines, look up at the score, decide they are losing, and drop.
Imagine the marine with the highest frag count leaves the game and suddenly the aliens have more frags than the marines. Does this mean the aliens are winning now? Hardly. There's so much more to think about. How fortified is the marine base? How many resources do they have? Do they have HA and HMGS yet? How many hives do the aliens have? How many resource chambers do they have set up? The frag count does not tell you all these things yet they are WAY more important than the the frag count.
When you are in a battle or a war, it doesn't come down to frags. What's more important is assets and liabilities. This isn't a simple shootout like counterstrike! It's not how many kills you get, its WHO you kill and how much control you have on the map.
#1 THIS IS NOT COUNTERSTRIKE. You cannot tell who is winning by the frag counts.
#2 In any NS game, marines almost ALWAYS have more frags and less deaths than the aliens. This means absolutely nothing.
Here's the scenario:
2 marines find a resource node and start building a resource. 4 skulks come and attack. One marine kills 3 skulks. (3 - 0) The other dies immeadiately. (3 - 1) The last skulk kills the other marine and eats the resource tower. (3 - 2). The commander sends four troops next time. They get the resource tower up but the skulks attack again. All the skulks die but not before getting 2 marines (7 - 4) The remaining two marines start setting up a turret factory. The skulks come back and one marine kills 2 skulks and dies. (9 - 5) The other marine kills one and dies (10 - 6). The final skulk eats the turret factory and gets half way through the resource tower when 2 more marines show up and kill him. (11 - 6) Neither marine remembered to bring a welder so those two marines work on getting up another turret factory. They get it up and start working on the turrets when three skulks show up. They kill both marines and eat the factory (11 - 8). Then they start eating the resource chamber which is already half dead. One marine shows up and kills two before dying himself (13 - 9). The final skulk finishes off the resource tower, eats the uninstalled turret, and leaves.
The score is 13 - 9 and the marines have gained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the exchange. Meanwhile at the same time on the other side of the map, 2 gorges were able to set up 4 resource chambers and start work on a new hive! The frags MEAN NOTHING because the aliens are about to get fades and the marines still only have one resource tower. How can you tell whose winning? Well, the aliens have more resources and a new tower. The marines were able to fortify their base but they still haven't gotten any new resources. I'd say the aliens are winning.
But then two noob aliens run into the marine base because they can't find any outposts and they get owned by a slew of turrets (15 - 9) They look up at the score and say "It's hopeless. They are owning us. Why does this always happen?" They leave and now its 4 aliens to 6 marines. Multiply this scenario by 2 or 3 and you get your typical NS game. But even in this scenario the aliens have a very good chance of winning.
Conclusion:
I don't know how many games I've played as alien where our team was playing smart and we were slowly advancing on the marines when a couple noobs get themselves killed by some marines, look up at the score, decide they are losing, and drop.
Imagine the marine with the highest frag count leaves the game and suddenly the aliens have more frags than the marines. Does this mean the aliens are winning now? Hardly. There's so much more to think about. How fortified is the marine base? How many resources do they have? Do they have HA and HMGS yet? How many hives do the aliens have? How many resource chambers do they have set up? The frag count does not tell you all these things yet they are WAY more important than the the frag count.
When you are in a battle or a war, it doesn't come down to frags. What's more important is assets and liabilities. This isn't a simple shootout like counterstrike! It's not how many kills you get, its WHO you kill and how much control you have on the map.
Comments
People need to build and use their upgrades.. undefended hives = death
not having defense chambers to help out your team and or offense and defense chambers is not right either.
you need lots of defense chambers... having two gorges is fine, just protect everythign you build with webs, OC's and DC's.
Once you have all your hives and secured hives, attack.. like mad, not that you shouldn't be doing it already, but with a gorg backing you up in battle it's better.. you can fall back and regain health via defense chambers and spray.
You're absolutely right, the kill- death ratio doesnt mean you're losing, but it can be imberassing sometimes... many times for my score has suffered due to lag.. and building gets me stuck while I am laggy lol. I dont leave unless I have to for reasons outside of the game or just cant deal with the lag and have no chance. I really think that aliens would have a much better chance if everyone stopped attacking ASAP, you need at least one good gorge. Gorges are as valuable to the Kharaa as the commander is to the marines.
There is a great guide on how to be a good gorge located here : <a href='http://nstactics.lanvancouver.com/gorge_tactics.html' target='_blank'>http://nstactics.lanvancouver.com/gorge_tactics.html</a>
thats news to me!
my last games have been about 50-20 (about 17 deaths as a skulk heh)
If it where one skulk that jumped 4 marines, the skulk would win 80% of the time also <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nice Sig by the way _Knuke_, its very artistic
My point is that when you are new to the game and you are getting fragged a lot, it shouldn't bother you because you are still making a difference. That's what my scenario was trying to show.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's not that frag ratios don't matter, but I agree that they're not indicators of who's ahead in the game.
I've played with all kinds of players in the past few weeks - some don't care about their ratio, some do. Some are reckless (<i>charging into 3 HA/HMG marines</i>), and some are more strategic (<i>drop on the head of the guy at the back of the line</i>). I've found that most people don't care about their ratios, but some people do.
I understand your point, and I don't look at a frag ratio as how well my side is doing either. I use my frag ratio as an indication of how well <b>I</b> am doing in achieving all these mini-missions to make the marines' game difficult.
I've defended an undeveloped hive by myself a few times while waiting for a gorge to get across the map. If I did it with a 15:0 ratio in those few minutes, then obviously I'm doing a good job. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My K:D ratio sucks though... every game. 7-10 kills to 20+ deaths. Not a problem though... that means I've been a real pain in the arse to those marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There shouldn't even BE a 'who's winning', only a 'which team is winning'. I personally would love to see personal frag counts removed and have only kill and death counts for the entire team combined. Not only in this mod, but in any game where teamwork is the main priority.
fact: spawning a marine takes 1 resources
fact:a health pack takes 2 resources
so that would mean that injuring a marine is more damaging to their team than killing him, right? well yes, but you have to consider if that marine had guns he lost and or heavy armor , If he did replacing this stuff will cost a lot more than just throwing a health pack down.
So kill scan be very important, but at other times it may be safer to just damage the marine, the problem however is that this game runs on the half-life engine and most mods rate the players on their kill-death ratio, so everyone thinks the people getting the most kills is the best, which may be true for being a good fighter. Fighting is important, but so is securing your bases and destroying your enemies bases. A gorge with a 2-5 ratio may be a more valuable player than a skulk with a 5-0 ratio because the gorg provides resources, protects hives, heals friends( and structures) and really is important.. a team without any good gorges is just as bad as a team without any good commanders.
Not to say that the warriors dont play a huge role in winning the battle, but they aren't the deciding factor on who wins.., that factor is not the skulks, lerks, lurks, or onos... Nope: it isnt the gorge, It's the team. The whole team makes the win. Maybe there a few bad players, but even a bad player can successed with great allies. You cannot win a long game without good fighters and good builders. you can win sometimes with a quick rush game, but that is kinda boring IMO and doesn't always work.. Turrets and good marines can take you out.. and if they notice that the number of skulks they see is equal to the number of players on Kharaa who is to stop one or two of them from destroying your one unprotected hive? There is no RTS elements in your whole team rushing.. it's just fighting marines and a few little structures.
By the end of the game the kill-death ratio could mean nothing, but other time's it can be the most important factor... I'd love to see a battle between one marine without a command station and one alien without a hive.