Marine relocation / recycle / CC

kabab

So based on the last few statements from Charlie seems like he wants relocations to be viable again which is great cause its something I love doing this as a com but as it stands NS2 is not very friendly to relocation as NS1 and here is why... Increasing the recycle payback I don't thing is going to encourage this behaviour to much since there are bigger issues prohibiting this behaviour.

One of the reasons you would relocate was to get the element of surprise and a geographic advantage over the aliens, they would have to spend sometime trying to figure out where the hell your going to then tweak their strategy to match..

Now in NS2 we have quiet a different landscape your relocation choices are very limited because you can only move where there is tech points so you loose the element of surprise and you can't force as much of a geographic advantage..

You can't really do a bunker down style relocation either now because you have to build a 2nd CC to expand the tech tree..

You can't lock aliens out of a 3rd hive any more since they have more choices in terms of where they can build hives...

So I think whole tech point idea will always hinder and discourage relocations which is a shame imho as it was a very fun and dynamic aspect to NS1...

What i propose to address this issue is;

Remove the need for marines to build CC's on tech points.
Remove the need to build more then one CC to expand the tech

This does a few positive things imho..

Makes the marine side more dynamic and unpredictable.
Makes relocating more viable.
Always the marines to progress their tech tree without forcing them to build a 2nd base
Gives the commander a choice if he wants a 2nd com (this is super important i think, this whole 2nd commander business is very badly thought out and is just a recipe for griefing).

Any thoughts / ideas ?

Chris0132

I think it's a bad idea.

Tram is not a large map, and it has a couple of potential relocation sites.

On a large map there would likely be even more.

It's kind of silly to base the entire game around relocation, if that's the goal just let a voted commander pick the spawn point before the game starts.

Relocation is an option, and not a very important one or one I would encourage given that it essentially makes the entire game down to whether the intiial idiotic dash to a new room is successful. A lot of the time it isn't going to be.

I don't see a valid reason for messing up the current mechanics, expansion to facilitate progression is in for a reason, and it's a good reason, if I wanted to sit in one spot and not move all game I'd play left4dead survival.

BitPon

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's kind of silly to base the entire game around relocation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

+1

I'm sure there will be maps where relocating will be a viable option.

I like the idea of having tech-points and don't find it confining at all. There are still lots tweaks to be made and stuff to be added before everything feels exactly right though.

kabab

The way i see it...

The Tech points have given aliens more options on where to place hives but have really reduced the freedom of the marines...

Steinhauer

I've already used relocation. It's called I built a second base, my first one kept coming under attack so eventually its IP went down and I spawned at the other, and most if not all of the original base slowly died.

See? Relocation isn't a problem

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1842618:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:35 PM:name=Steinhauer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steinhauer @ Apr 26 2011, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already used relocation. It's called I built a second base, my first one kept coming under attack so eventually its IP went down and I spawned at the other, and most if not all of the original base slowly died.

See? Relocation isn't a problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This trend of people thinking that preceding explication with "It's called" somehow makes it sound more convincing is really irritating... But you do make a valid point.

ScardyBob

Tech node/research setup is fine for relocation, the issue is map design. If you take a look at the mapping guidelines, you'll see it very heavily favors each side having only one viable location for a main base. I suppose that makes mapping and balancing much easier, but it greatly reduces the complexity of each map. The irony is that its trivially simple to make maps that are relocation-friendly. All you need are
1. A power node/alien spawn egg entities in every tech node room
2. A corresponding res node in the same room as every tech node

For example, here's what I would do on tram
- Move 1 res node from repair room to marine exp
- Move res node from alien exp to server room
- Move res node from operations to elevator transfer
- Place power node in alien start/alien exp
- Place alien egg spawn entities in marine start
That's all you'd have to do to make the map relocation-friendly.

CaCa

I see it more as that the default marine starting bases are there for a reason, gameplay-balance-wise. Relocation should happen because you're left with no alternative, because default base is being overrun or something, so I'm ok with there not being any "confortable" res-nodes near secondary tech-nodes... If you want to relocate, deal with it.

Steinhauer

<!--quoteo(post=1842624:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:14 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 26 2011, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This trend of people thinking that preceding explication with "It's called" somehow makes it sound more convincing is really irritating...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Lol sorry, I don't normally write like that so it's interesting that you happened to be the one responding to it when i did.

I do think that map design is the main complaint about relocation though. I think with a bit larger maps relocation would be more tactically viable.

I'm sure you can count on the mapping community to make excellent relocation-friendly maps, so I wouldn't worry about it too much ;)

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1842654:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:56 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ Apr 26 2011, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it more as that the default marine starting bases are there for a reason, gameplay-balance-wise. Relocation should happen because you're left with no alternative, because default base is being overrun or something, so I'm ok with there not being any "confortable" res-nodes near secondary tech-nodes... If you want to relocate, deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

But relocation isn't an alternative. If you lose your starting location, you lose the match. That's why as marine comm I usually turtle in marine start, because I have no viable path to victory if I can't keep my main base alive. What I want is viable tech node alternatives so I can actually include base location into my strategy.

kabab

<!--quoteo(post=1842654:date=Apr 27 2011, 04:56 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ Apr 27 2011, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it more as that the default marine starting bases are there for a reason, gameplay-balance-wise. Relocation should happen because you're left with no alternative, because default base is being overrun or something, so I'm ok with there not being any "confortable" res-nodes near secondary tech-nodes... If you want to relocate, deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sorry I strongly disagree to me its just dumbing down the gameplay which is shame as the depth of the gameplay is what made NS1 for me.

crae

Nvr mind, not what I thought.

CaCa

<!--quoteo(post=1842660:date=Apr 27 2011, 05:24 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Apr 27 2011, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry I strongly disagree to me its just dumbing down the gameplay which is shame as the depth of the gameplay is what made NS1 for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, lemme ask you, did you think it was "smart gameplay" for marines to build their CC and base of operations inside, say, vents? Or weird exploitable locations?

Fixed CC/hive build locations aren't "dumbed down gameplay" at all. On the contrary, ye gots t'fight harder!

To me it sounds like you're just used to NS1 and just don't want to be told any different, just because.

Harimau

Hmmm... my vision for NS2 is much different, it might even discourage relocation, and encourage more turtling. The way I envision it, there is no research required to gain a higher technology tier since that's superfluous; instead, the number of tech nodes you own IS your tech tier - and you can lose your tier-locked upgrades if you lose a node, and regain them if you then gain a node. e.g. You take and hold two nodes, you're at tech tier 2, you research flamethrowers which are locked to tier 2, you lose a node and drop to tier 1, flamethrowers are disabled, you gain a node and rise to tier 2, flamethrowers are re-enabled.
So it wouldn't really encourage relocation, it would more encourage taking and holding many positions on the map. However, you might sell all your non-essential structures (i.e. everything except the CC), and rebuild at the new location, and that would be somewhat viable. At that point, losing your starting position will only have the same effect as losing any node.
What would encourage relocation is, as someone mentioned somewhere in this thread, geographical advantage. A better place to turtle, a better place to assault from, etc.

kabab

Sounds so rigid to me :(

I like being creative with my relocations was a lot of fun!

ace003

One of my favorite things in ns1 was risk vs reward factor. Sure you could relocate to double, but it wouldn't necessarily end well. I think some of the freedom has been taken away in ns2, partly to appease new comers and make the game more accessible which isn't a bad thing for the community. There needs to be some middle ground, most of which will come down to how maps are laid out and how the tech tree is set out.

I would like to see the return of aliens having a random hive location and some freedom where a cc can be placed. To do so there would need to be less dependency placed on the amount of chairs vs the level of research attainable. Probably a bad idea, but you could always have pug and comp game modes where certain aspects of the game are different. Obviously comp modes would allow for more freedom and risk so pug games would be more accessible and harder to grief.

I find it frustrating the game in its current stage is a tug of war over territory.

crae

<!--quoteo(post=1842914:date=Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM:name=ace003)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace003 @ Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be some middle ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed relocation points (on tech-nodes) is the middle ground. Choices are; relo impossible, fixed point relo and random relo

<!--quoteo(post=1842914:date=Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM:name=ace003)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace003 @ Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->freedom where a cc can be placed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that will happen in the official release, but likely to be tried in custom builds.

<!--quoteo(post=1842914:date=Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM:name=ace003)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace003 @ Apr 28 2011, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it frustrating the game in its current stage is a tug of war over territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uummm...well, I guess the trick is to put the frustration aside and make the tug of war over territory fun, exciting, challenging and rewarding. Good luck soldier!