The engine loads only the textures that are used in the map, and that's it. All the used textures are held in memory. If it can't find a texture then it runs anyways and replaces the missing textures with purple-and-black checker patterns. If it can't find a WAD then it crashes.
If this is an official limit, shouldn't it be in the Mapping Guidlines? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Our official maps are under the 4MB limit. I haven't verified that staying under the 4MB limit will have a significant performance effect on a wide variety of low end systems, in an online environment, with all our models. There's no way we can know this until we're closer to done. I'm not saying a map will be discarded as soon as it goes over 4MB, but, like everything else in the Mapper's Guidelines, it should generally be followed.
Bast and hera have an amazing amount of detail and many diverse environments...just look at them! For the next version, the limit could increase, we'll see what performance is like.
For the time being I'm going to work inside of 5 megs, just so I'm not losing time and energy reworking all my textures. You can use it as a test of performance issues I guess. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> If it means my map is discarded, so be it. My aim is to complete my first map.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+April 15 2002,17:35--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Flayra @ April 15 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying a map will be discarded as soon as it goes over 4MB, but, like everything else in the Mapper's Guidelines, it should generally be followed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said a couple posts up, the 4MB limit is NOT in the Mapping Guidelines. I've run searches for 4MB, 4 MB, texture, 4, and I have not come across ONE mention of any '4MB limit'. If it's an official stance of the dev team, it needs to be in there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our official maps are under the 4MB limit. I haven't verified that staying under the 4MB limit will have a significant performance effect on a wide variety of low end systems, in an online environment, with all our models. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this does have a large impact on lower end systems. It apparently is havoc on software mode and people with small video memory. DoD 2.0 had the same problem, people simply couldnt play maps, either their fps was like 3-5 or they just crashed as soon as the server changed to certain maps that had 8 mb of textures. So they decreased the max texturememory to 5 on all their official maps for the 2.1 release.
Just so you know, Condition Zero has an imposed 4Mb texture limit so as not to break software mode. Depending on how important software mode is, I could see how it would make sense to stick to this limit for now, until the number of software mode players can be gauged (somehow?).
Keeping to powers of 2 is the best option for good looking textures, since the engine does a horrific job of rescaling non-power-of-two textures. My preference is to use 256x256 resolution for "hero" textures (i.e. textures that will be featured a lot in the map, like walls and floors, or certain detail textures) and just manage the splitting, which doesn't really have a huge effect, unless you're texturing massive surfaces. 256x256 makes for much more rich environments if texture artists take advantage of the extra resolution (essentially 4 times as much detail).
Lighting is the best option for adding variety to a "texture limited" environment, as the best maps attest to.
Yeah I think most people on this board are now aware of the power of two complications concerning textures. You brought up another good point though: Lighting
Anyone who has had the priviledge to play ns_bast will just how lighting can transform the amount of detail there seems to be in an area. I hope the same effect is noticeable in hera too <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Another point is to have textures with many different aspects to them, for example, I use many highly detailed textures for different thing sin Hera, because by rotating them/using only a small section of them, you can make it look like its something else. For instance, I use the bottom trim of WALL_LAB4 for various trims in the map, and I use the half-octagon middle of DOOR_HORIZ4 as part of the supporting arms in the docking area, whilst also using the whole texture in a different area as a simple door. (Although ironically, that texture isn't a power-of-2 dimension texture.)
Also, you can have lots of different textures in one 256x256 texture, so long as you don't want them to tile. All my scrolling readyroom signs are part of one larger texture, and I just use sections of it for each sign.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Wow, sw33t idea, Merk. I'd never have thought of that (but then, I don't map!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
I have a 256x256 texture for my tram car, but the tram is only 192x192, so I use the extra pieces for the top/bottom trim and the engine. It makes the texture look like a model skin <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Blue Shift used a lot of split textures as well, if you haven't looked through that .wad file before. That's where I originally got the idea. I just haven't done enough texture work to implement it anywhere. Yet. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Has there been a resolution to the question of texture limits?
I can probably replace some of my larger textures and buy myself some time, but I'd really be thankful if I can use a little more memory.
Thanks!
-> <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Bast and hera have an amazing amount of detail and many diverse environments...just look at them! For the next version, the limit could increase, we'll see what performance is like.
For the time being I'm going to work inside of 5 megs, just so I'm not losing time and energy reworking all my textures. You can use it as a test of performance issues I guess. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> If it means my map is discarded, so be it. My aim is to complete my first map.
Like I said a couple posts up, the 4MB limit is NOT in the Mapping Guidelines. I've run searches for 4MB, 4 MB, texture, 4, and I have not come across ONE mention of any '4MB limit'. If it's an official stance of the dev team, it needs to be in there.
this does have a large impact on lower end systems. It apparently is havoc on software mode and people with small video memory. DoD 2.0 had the same problem, people simply couldnt play maps, either their fps was like 3-5 or they just crashed as soon as the server changed to certain maps that had 8 mb of textures. So they decreased the max texturememory to 5 on all their official maps for the 2.1 release.
Keeping to powers of 2 is the best option for good looking textures, since the engine does a horrific job of rescaling non-power-of-two textures. My preference is to use 256x256 resolution for "hero" textures (i.e. textures that will be featured a lot in the map, like walls and floors, or certain detail textures) and just manage the splitting, which doesn't really have a huge effect, unless you're texturing massive surfaces. 256x256 makes for much more rich environments if texture artists take advantage of the extra resolution (essentially 4 times as much detail).
Lighting is the best option for adding variety to a "texture limited" environment, as the best maps attest to.
Yeah I think most people on this board are now aware of the power of two complications concerning textures. You brought up another good point though: Lighting
Anyone who has had the priviledge to play ns_bast will just how lighting can transform the amount of detail there seems to be in an area. I hope the same effect is noticeable in hera too <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Another point is to have textures with many different aspects to them, for example, I use many highly detailed textures for different thing sin Hera, because by rotating them/using only a small section of them, you can make it look like its something else. For instance, I use the bottom trim of WALL_LAB4 for various trims in the map, and I use the half-octagon middle of DOOR_HORIZ4 as part of the supporting arms in the docking area, whilst also using the whole texture in a different area as a simple door. (Although ironically, that texture isn't a power-of-2 dimension texture.)
Also, you can have lots of different textures in one 256x256 texture, so long as you don't want them to tile. All my scrolling readyroom signs are part of one larger texture, and I just use sections of it for each sign.
<!--EDIT|KungFuSquirrel|April 21 2002,11:02-->