New & Improved Marine Tech Tree!
KuBaN
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">No Artificial Flavors!</div>In attempting to create the original Marine Tech Tree, I realized that I had some issues with the current tech tree, and made <a href="http://img42.imageshack.us/f/marinetechtreev20.gif" target="_blank">MY OWN</a>. Lemme know what you think.
Still missing MAC Mines/EMP and Dual Minigun, but I'm not sure where they belong (if they're even still planned).
<ul><li>Moved Shotgun to T2 since currently there is no reason not to go straight Shotguns, which makes the AR pretty much obsolete from the start. The Armory at T1 provides Ammo Resupply, Medspam, and Weapon/Armor upgrades, the latter of which better facilitates Tier 1 rushing stratagems.</li><li>Moved GL to T3 since it is primarily the anti-structure weapon. The ARC should be a sufficient T2 anti-structure device, with the GL being the more mobile solution (JP + GL).</li><li>JPs provide mobility, which facilitates hit-and-run tactics, otherwise known as harassing. Harassing is typically more effective early-mid game. You don't get Terran Reapers at Tier 3, because by then the economy game is already over, and the tactics that the JP facilitates are already somewhat diminished by that point.</li><li>Made Robotics Facility a prereq for turrets primarily for the dependency.</li></ul>
Edit: This is a SUGGESTED TECH TREE, NOT THE CURRENT ONE.
Still missing MAC Mines/EMP and Dual Minigun, but I'm not sure where they belong (if they're even still planned).
<ul><li>Moved Shotgun to T2 since currently there is no reason not to go straight Shotguns, which makes the AR pretty much obsolete from the start. The Armory at T1 provides Ammo Resupply, Medspam, and Weapon/Armor upgrades, the latter of which better facilitates Tier 1 rushing stratagems.</li><li>Moved GL to T3 since it is primarily the anti-structure weapon. The ARC should be a sufficient T2 anti-structure device, with the GL being the more mobile solution (JP + GL).</li><li>JPs provide mobility, which facilitates hit-and-run tactics, otherwise known as harassing. Harassing is typically more effective early-mid game. You don't get Terran Reapers at Tier 3, because by then the economy game is already over, and the tactics that the JP facilitates are already somewhat diminished by that point.</li><li>Made Robotics Facility a prereq for turrets primarily for the dependency.</li></ul>
Edit: This is a SUGGESTED TECH TREE, NOT THE CURRENT ONE.
Comments
- Shotgun is L1 tech, not L2
- GL is L2 tech, not L3
- FT needs weapons module as a prereq
- No L4 RT upgrade
- Not sure why you have time/number limits on MACs, ammopacks, medpacks.
- Armor/Damage L2/L3 should be in L2/L3 tiers rather than L1
What your tech tree layout does show is that the current research/structure system is unnecessarily complex and unintuitive (so much so that its hard to accurately represent in a single, coherent manner). Many items are either dependent on CC tech level, a specific structure upgrade, or both that makes it hard for most people to follow and learn.
Shotgun should remain tier 1 so the armoury serves some purpose other than resupply, it just needs to be tweaked.
JP and exo should definitely both be tier 3.
If the RobFac becomes a prereq for turrets, what would the prices be? They're already hideously expensive, if we have to unlock them on top of that...
Is it supposed to indicate that W2/3 and A2/3 don't need higher levels of command buildings or is that just due to space issues in the image?
<!--quoteo(post=1840331:date=Apr 8 2011, 05:54 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Apr 8 2011, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So this is supposed to be the eventual tech tree rather than the current one? Because there are some clear conflicts with the current beta build. Specifically,
- Shotgun is L1 tech, not L2
- GL is L2 tech, not L3
- FT needs weapons module as a prereq
- No L4 RT upgrade
- Not sure why you have time/number limits on MACs, ammopacks, medpacks.
- Armor/Damage L2/L3 should be in L2/L3 tiers rather than L1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am disappoint, Scardy. I thought you'd be able to discern for yourself that this wasn't the current tech tree, but my own take on how it should be, seeing how it is clearly incorrect and (more importantly) in the Ideas and Suggestions board... Anways, there are 3 RT upgrades, whether you call them 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 3, or A, B, C is irrelevant (although I apologize for my inconsistent convention within the tree). The time/number limits on MACs ammopacks and medpacks are suggested trained unit limits and cooldown timers. I've posted more in-depth explanations to these mechanics in other posts.
<!--quoteo(post=1840335:date=Apr 8 2011, 06:00 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 8 2011, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GL doesn't seem good enough to be tier 3 compared to the flamethrower, unless we can also get other upgrades for the LMG, like a clipazine size increase.
Shotgun should remain tier 1 so the armoury serves some purpose other than resupply, it just needs to be tweaked.
JP and exo should definitely both be tier 3.
If the RobFac becomes a prereq for turrets, what would the prices be? They're already hideously expensive, if we have to unlock them on top of that...
Is it supposed to indicate that W2/3 and A2/3 don't need higher levels of command buildings or is that just due to space issues in the image?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking at each entities intended purpose/function as they affect the grand scheme of the game, not the current possibility of imbalance or the specific numbers that would be required. Variables (price, damage, etc.) would need to be tweaked, but I was under the impression this was common sense, and didn't need to be explicitly indicated. The values themselves are irrelevant until the foundation is established, and worrying about it is sort of like freaking out about the clothes you're wearing to an event when your only method of transportation is on fire...
My concern right now is the lack of strategy provided by the tech tree, and I think most of it is due to the structure of it. Structure dependency is there to force you to make a decision: either commit resources to specializing what's available at the present tier, or commit resources to advancing to the next tier. Ideally, both are equally viable/balanced (with advantages/disadvantages and distinct counter-actions an opposing team can take) and the Commander's game becomes one of choices (strategy) but currently the Commanding game is more about building everything you can, because there's little incentive not to. All of the purchase costs are relatively equal, and there isn't enough dependence to force you to commit to a path.
If Jetpack and Exo have identical prerequisites, they're both going to be available at relatively the same time, and there is no question as to whether to research one or the other, you just get both when you can. Same problem with the Shotgun. It's available off the bat, so AR is obsolete. There's no deep strategy involved, you go Shotguns as soon as you can, no question.
Now, if the ProtoLab is available at Tier 2 but only unlocks Jetpacks until T3, you're presented with a choice: Build a ProtoLab at Tier 2 (for quick JPs), or ProtoLab at Tier 3 (for Exosuit). If the Robotics Facility is a prerequisite of the Sentry Turret, you have to make a clear choice/sacrifice if you want to utilize them; you can no longer just build whatever you have the money for.
Also, yes, I am suggesting W2, W3, A2, and A3 upgrades be available at Tier 1.
I am disappoint, Scardy. I thought you'd be able to discern for yourself that this wasn't the current tech tree, but my own take on how it should be, seeing how it is clearly incorrect and (more importantly) in the Ideas and Suggestions board... Anways, there are 3 RT upgrades, whether you call them 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 3, or A, B, C is irrelevant (although I apologize for my inconsistent convention within the tree). The time/number limits on MACs ammopacks and medpacks are suggested trained unit limits and cooldown timers. I've posted more in-depth explanations to these mechanics in other posts.
I'm looking at each entities intended purpose/function as they affect the grand scheme of the game, not the current possibility of imbalance or the specific numbers that would be required. Variables (price, damage, etc.) would need to be tweaked, but I was under the impression this was common sense, and didn't need to be explicitly indicated. The values themselves are irrelevant until the foundation is established, and worrying about it is sort of like freaking out about the clothes you're wearing to an event when your only method of transportation is on fire...
But, yes, I am suggesting W2, W3, A2, and A3 upgrades be available at Tier 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I figured as much, but the wording in your post was a big weird. As towards the suggestions
- I'm not a fan of multiple level upgrades. For example, I'd prefer one RT upgrade that gives +1 res rather than three RT upgrades that give +0.33. Its much easier to understand and explain.
- Instead of indicating specific weapons/structures, I'd explain their role and make a suggestion about which weapon/structure would fit. For example, instead of putting 'shotgun', you could put 'anti-alien weapon (e.g. shotgun)'. It would eliminate much of the confusion of what you are suggesting.
Of course, a bit of number-tweaking (from the current build) would necessarily be required as well (e.g. drop sentry cost to make up for its poor singular use and its new research requirement).
Some minor things:
-I agree with Scardy about the RT upgrade. There's no real point to having 3 of them. It's not as if there's really a wealth of options, it's pretty much just upgraded or not upgraded.
-I would have tiers (CC level) directly as a result of how many tech nodes you own.
-I would remove the second upgrade for the armory (weapons module). I would have the armory in two states: a cheap armory with no researches available, and an expensive upgrade to a more durable advanced armory with all researches (but still locked by tier). This would allow you to have a cheap armory at your front lines, but for your base you'd have a more durable 'permanent' armory for doing researches.
-Still not sure I'm sold on the cooldowns for medpacks and ammo.
-The minigun (and claw) upgrade may not be required, if I'm right about the exoskeleton i.e. it only has mountable weapons (claw, mini, rail), and has a claw and a minigun by default. Unless... it starts with two claws, one claw of which holds a rifle... and you can drop claws for miniguns and railguns.
-The game needs more weapons and upgrades!
-I agree with Scardy about the RT upgrade. There's no real point to having 3 of them. It's not as if there's really a wealth of options, it's pretty much just upgraded or not upgraded.
-I would have tiers (CC level) directly as a result of how many tech nodes you own.
-I would remove the second upgrade for the armory (weapons module). I would have the armory in two states: a cheap armory with no researches available, and an expensive upgrade to a more durable advanced armory with all researches (but still locked by tier). This would allow you to have a cheap armory at your front lines, but for your base you'd have a more durable 'permanent' armory for doing researches.
-Still not sure I'm sold on the cooldowns for medpacks and ammo.
-The minigun (and claw) upgrade may not be required, if I'm right about the exoskeleton i.e. it only has mountable weapons (claw, mini, rail), and has a claw and a minigun by default. Unless... it starts with two claws, one claw of which holds a rifle... and you can drop claws for miniguns and railguns.
-The game needs more weapons and upgrades!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The RT upgrades do seem a bit many. If all towers produced TRes synchronously on a longer timer (say 5 TRes/60 sec) by default, and each upgrade decreased the TRes interval, even without increasing production (3 TRes/36 sec) there might actually be incentive for multiple upgrades, or at the very least, more incentive for just one. Would also just be nicer to watch than these small, slow ticks. (I've suggested this before I think. Starting to sound like luns :P)
2) I agree with tying tier to Tech Nodes and removing the redundant and seemingly arbitrary upgrade into the next Tiers.
3) Sounds like an interesting change to the Armory. Gives you the choice of upgrading it sooner at Tier 2, sacrificing faster Tier advancement for tech or vice versa. Very nice.
4) It needs to happen. Anything that can be spammed can usually be implemented much more elegantly and allow for more strategic use. Look at Dawn of War II's global abilities. The game is pretty similar (limited base-building with commander focus on squad tactics), and makes effective use of global/commander abilities. Having a time-management element forces you to think about what you're doing instead of blindly dropping whatever you can afford.
5) I was under the impression the minigun was still to be available to vanilla Marines. If not, the Dual Minigun upgrade would likely be there.
I lol'd.
Re. number 4: Perhaps you're right about having a cooldown. However, I'd require a few things:
1) Make a drop fail-safe, and not so dependent on twitch-accuracy. For example, you could increase the radius a dropped pack would trigger from, rather than trigger upon clipping.
2) Charges, rather than single-use cooldowns. I've explained this before. For example, it starts at 0 charges, every six seconds it adds 1 charge, up to a total of 3 charges - you could use all 3 of your charges at once, and then have to wait six seconds for the next charge, and another six for the next, and another six for the next; or you could use a couple now, and have 1 on hand immediately if you need to use it, and wait another six for an additional charge, and another six for an additional charge.
Ditto on the charges mechanic, btw.
Also, I think we discussed somewhere else about T1 flamethrower being an almost purely DI weapon and a later upgrade to get more powerful alien-killing version?
2) Charges, rather than single-use cooldowns. I've explained this before. For example, it starts at 0 charges, every six seconds it adds 1 charge, up to a total of 3 charges - you could use all 3 of your charges at once, and then have to wait six seconds for the next charge, and another six for the next, and another six for the next; or you could use a couple now, and have 1 on hand immediately if you need to use it, and wait another six for an additional charge, and another six for an additional charge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2) If PRes replaces the Energy cost, you've got a Charge counter right there :P
Cooldowns definitely limits medpack support, and I would say too much. That's why I suggested the increased trigger radius and charge system.
Actually, yeah, I like this better.
Expanding on this topic, it would be interesting to see all structure upgrades designed like this, such that all level 0 structures are balanced to be weak enough that they are the preferred Alien targets over Power Nodes, with any structure upgrades making them strong enough that it is more considerably more efficient (in a room full of upgraded structures) to destroy Power Nodes. Then the structures build and upgrade costs can be tweaked to facilitate proxy/relocation strategies. In other words, un-upgraded vanilla structures are cheap, weak, and expendable, but as a result also highly mobile. As you upgrade/invest more money in the structures, they become more valuable/defensible, but you also become less mobile.
Extractor production upgrades could additionally increase HP/Armor (while Harvester upgrades would increase regeneration?)
since armory can be dropped anywhere on the map, marines get free armor pretty much. I have no problem it restoring health but having it restore armor as well is a problem. Restoring armor should be an upgraded perk marines get.
Extractor production upgrades could additionally increase HP/Armor (while Harvester upgrades would increase regeneration?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, especially alien chambers. Actually, the germ of the Single-upgrade Armoury idea came from my imagining of the alien chamber and resource model (in a discussion we had in another thread). It's the choice of cheap and weak, with specialised utility (a crag provides healing, a whip provides point defense, an armoury provides re-stocking, etc); or expensive - with the same or enhanced utility, but with more durability and research availability. For example, you could have a structure cost 10 TRes , but 20 to upgrade it (effectively tripling the cost for the structure) - each structure has triple the health, and can now research upgrades, but will retain its specialised utility.
For comparison, here's the <a href="http://imageshack.us/f/718/marinetechtreeb176.gif/" target="_blank">CURRENT</a> Tech Tree, including some of the Coming Soon features that can be confirmed through the Lua code. I left out individual MAC/ARC upgrades and Weapon Mods (NerveGas, Dual Miniguns) for the sake of keep it minimalistic.