Idea: Make winning rewarding!
PersianImm0rtal
Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75414Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75414Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">Just a thought, How could we make winning NS2 games rewarding?</div>I do know that is really early to be thinking about this, and it is very low priority right now. If there was more of a reward for winning NS2 games, it could help people in random pub matches to work together as a team better, and make the game a little more competitive. I feel like it kind of does not really matter if I win or lose as there is no reward. So here are just some ideas I thought of to make winning in NS2 more rewarding for players. Please give out your ideas/thoughts on this as well.
1. Winning Music/Sound effects
2. Ranking/Leveling System (like COH or RUSE)
3. Special looking gear, GUI, or voices.
4. Some kind of benefits for Aliens.
5. Maybe an unlock of an alternate starting weapon/lifeform.
The problem is, I really can not think of many things that could be done to make the wins more rewarding, although I think it should be! Please give out your ideas/thoughts on this as well. Do you like this idea? What could be done?
1. Winning Music/Sound effects
2. Ranking/Leveling System (like COH or RUSE)
3. Special looking gear, GUI, or voices.
4. Some kind of benefits for Aliens.
5. Maybe an unlock of an alternate starting weapon/lifeform.
The problem is, I really can not think of many things that could be done to make the wins more rewarding, although I think it should be! Please give out your ideas/thoughts on this as well. Do you like this idea? What could be done?
Comments
They really need to concentrate on game mechanics before they spend time implementing a reward system but i'm sure they have it on the list.
(MODS) may want to move this topic to the Ideas and Sugestions Sub-forum. It will most likely get lost here.
ah... remember back in the days where people wanted to win, well.. because they wanted to win. Now we need shiny medals and stuff...
Not important, but tolerable.
<!--quoteo(post=1839861:date=Apr 5 2011, 03:04 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Apr 5 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Ranking/Leveling System (like COH or RUSE)
3. Special looking gear, GUI, or voices.
4. Some kind of benefits for Aliens.
5. Maybe an unlock of an alternate starting weapon/lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>No</b>, and no bloody achievements either.
When every new round is fresh, with no persistent state, you have a <b>level playing field</b>. If you insist on not having a level playing field, the most sensible thing to do is to give newbies training gear with better stats(e.g. more bullets in a clip, faster reload); after a certain number of rounds the training wheels come off and they get to play the game as intended.
The only persistent state I find remotely acceptable is cosmetic rewards; like achievement, icons etc. This requires very careful design of incentives, otherwise people will act against the interest of their own team. If you reward 100 knife-kills with an achievement you will have a small number of people acting like retards and running around trying to knife aliens. If you reward getting the most kills on your team you will incentivize non-objective oriented kill-whoring. If you reward winning you will incentivize lame-quitting, WTJing and whining about team balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1839861:date=Apr 5 2011, 03:04 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Apr 5 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is, I really can not think of many things that could be done to make the wins more rewarding, although I think it should be! Please give out your ideas/thoughts on this as well. Do you like this idea? What could be done?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a humble suggestion; if you don't find the game intrinsically rewarding, <b>stop playing</b>, go do something else and come back later.
Why do you care about others referencing ethnicity in names, or "bored expressions" in their avatar faces?
Go on reddit if you are bored.
How about keeping it on topic instead of picking a fight? There's no call for this sort of obviously inflammatory nonsense.
When the commander gives you an order as a soldier, like destroying an Harvester for example, if you succeed by last hitting it you gain 10 points or if you take part as assist you gain a little less: 8 points and finally without order you would have won only 5 points (following checkpoints doesn't count, it could be spammed). To continue on this idea: killing a Onos (strong unit) on order makes you gain 5 points, assist : 4 points, and without order 3 points. Et caetera, you can continue this principle for everything by balancing it according to the importance of the given objectives. Indeed it is just an idea, it could be more polished.
Those points you win are the only thing that stays on the account as "Experience". You can't see lose/win, k/d ratio so even a bad player who sucked at first will gain more and more points over time anyway. Before the start up of every games you vote to choose your commander between the pretenders basing on their number of points, sometimes a player with less points than the others pretenders will chat with his team to tell them to let him be commander (it happens a lot in Savage 2 and the community is often generous in those cases if the guy doesn't seems too bad, and anyway it's not forced that as a high experienced player you want to be the commander every games).
What is important in this system it is that that is frustrating in no way for the players, it is generous for anyone. So the defeats remain gained points even if it is in a less consequent way than winning, so you will not see a horrible community like the Dota/HoN one taking form, it will be still competitive but not in a merciless way.
Of course this system will ask a way to restrain points only on legit server without modifications.
Any reward that gives an advantage is a bad idea for this type of game. Tech unlocks come from teching up not from just playing for a long time. It would make balance, if not impossible, much harder to ever achieve.
The only unlocks I could see working are cosmetic ones as a couple have mentioned already. Since the game does have a point system this could count towards unlocking new things such as different looking armor or maybe slightly different alien skins. Honestly I think the only reason devs haven't already jumped on something like this is that it requires a great amount of extra artwork. If they are going to add unlockable cosmetics they will want to add <b>at least</b> 1 alternate skin per class which could really start adding up in terms of time/cost.
oh I'm half persian btw...
I do know that is really early to be thinking about this, and it is very low priority right now. I myself think the game is rewarding enough, but I do see other people who just fight what ever they run into, and not effectively contributing to a win. Yeah, it definitely should not be like the Call of Duty games (hate that game). Maybe just to keep track of your stats and display a meaningless ranking. Cosmetic rewards would be the best idea overall.
I don't care for achievements or ranks what so ever, imagine my reaction trough TS channels to end a round based on that nonsense :P
Also gameplay changes as a result of achievement or ranks is a nono in my book (works for TF2, but hell that game is more of a spamfest then anything else)
Note:
Don't we already have winning/losing music though?
The only time i like winning is when I can make it really obvious, having made whatever i conquered "safe" and the overpowering the enemy bigtime. I am a turtler xD!
The end game of NS is essentially an RTS. Like any strategy game you win due to better tactics, strong offensive, amble defenses, sheer masses or better economy. Yes, NS2 has an economy. So the game end screen should reflect this.
It should be a statistic screen with a background image, maybe aliens in in a zoo (marine win) or DI growing over a skull (alien win).
The stats should <u>NOT</u> be KDR (boring and not does not promote conducive team gameplay)
I also do not like long term leader-boards or ranks because they get 'tainted' and mean nothing.
Rather they should be items like:
<u>Private (per player)</u>
Your use of personal resources. Kills per personal resources used (private).
Healing received, damage given etc...
Number of structures destroyed.
Time and longest life as lerk, gorge etc
Favorite weapon
Maybe store your personal best.
<u>Team Based (common display)</u>
Most effective use of personal resources. Kills per personal resources used.
Number of extractors/harvestors killed before construction was finished.
Most effective use of personal resources to destroy structures.
Mass spent on extractor/harvestors vs mass lost building them.
Most healing received.
Number of deserters (people that have left the game)
Percentage of team resources used on structures.
Most healing provided by gorge.
Highest percentage of map covered with DI
Most ammunition used.
Most damage done with switchaxe.
You get the idea.
I had an idea of making the players with the highest Score the Squad Leaders of the team, and giving them some minor responsibilities such as creating a "Suggested Loadout" for his sqyad, giving micro orders (Follow Me, Defend Here, Attack, but leave macro orders to the Commander), being the only unit squad members can teleport to via the Transponder, and changing the med/ammopack rules such that Commanders can only drop them in a radius around the Squad Leader.
This doesn't necessarily reward winning itself, but it creates a competitive environment among players to do well by hanging the slightly more involved and potentially rewarding role above everyone's head. Points would need to be balanced between all aspects such as combat, building/repairing, defending, etc.
Anyways, my point is, I think we should reward PLAYING rather than WINNING. My best memories of NS1 was of the journey, not the outcome.
<!--quoteo(post=1839882:date=Apr 5 2011, 05:47 AM:name=HolyTeal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HolyTeal @ Apr 5 2011, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's imagine something for example : Every player on the winning team gain 200 points at the end of a game and the side losing only 100 points.
When the commander gives you an order as a soldier, like destroying an Harvester for example, if you succeed by last hitting it you gain 10 points or if you take part as assist you gain a little less: 8 points and finally without order you would have won only 5 points (following checkpoints doesn't count, it could be spammed). To continue on this idea: killing a Onos (strong unit) on order makes you gain 5 points, assist : 4 points, and without order 3 points. Et caetera, you can continue this principle for everything by balancing it according to the importance of the given objectives. Indeed it is just an idea, it could be more polished.
Those points you win are the only thing that stays on the account as "Experience". You can't see lose/win, k/d ratio so even a bad player who sucked at first will gain more and more points over time anyway. Before the start up of every games you vote to choose your commander between the pretenders basing on their number of points, sometimes a player with less points than the others pretenders will chat with his team to tell them to let him be commander (it happens a lot in Savage 2 and the community is often generous in those cases if the guy doesn't seems too bad, and anyway it's not forced that as a high experienced player you want to be the commander every games).
What is important in this system it is that that is frustrating in no way for the players, it is generous for anyone. So the defeats remain gained points even if it is in a less consequent way than winning, so you will not see a horrible community like the Dota/HoN one taking form, it will be still competitive but not in a merciless way.
Of course this system will ask a way to restrain points only on legit server without modifications.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually seems a balancing plugin built around this idea. You gain points via kills, building structures, winning and lose points via deaths, losing. Each team has their total point value added as the sum of their player's points and the plugin forces you to join the team with the lower points value. This method helps ensure that good players can't constantly stack one team.
no alternate weapons/life forms, people should not be given an advantage just because theyve played more games then the others... this isnt an mmo.
no hats (has to be said)
everything else is just gravy
The end game of NS is essentially an RTS. Like any strategy game you win due to better tactics, strong offensive, amble defenses, sheer masses or better economy. Yes, NS2 has an economy. So the game end screen should reflect this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh oh, can we get stuff like in the Civ games where we see a timeline with markers where a team researched/built something? So you can see like "Oh they rushed resource towers, that explains all the lerks and fades".
I do like the idea of a Civ-like replay of the level on the end-game screen although that could cost significant development time. Alien Swarm on steam has something like that, you see a map of the previous level and the paths everyone took, where they died, so on..
Playing Devil's advocate for a moment though.. Though I dislike the idea personally, I have to admit, achievements and persistent scores could be a good idea commercially. The console crowds, younger gamers especially, expect and seem to crave the digital pat on the back. Perusing gamer forums achievements appear to be extremely important to most and a great incentive to keep playing a game far beyond the point of entertainment. Heck the feeling of persistent achievement is basically what fuels MMO addiction.
My two cents.
That would be kinda awesome.
In regards to the other ideas, I'm not too jazzed about cosmetics or achievements. Plausible, but I personally couldn't care less. Just no unlockable weapons or silly things like that.
Achievements provide a step by step guide to newfriends who have just picked up the game.
Rewards upon winning provides a longer lasting fanbase, keeping players fixed.
It encourages friends to work together more cohesively to some extent.
It lets players explore more roles easily.
However, on negatives.
It causes more rage-inducing play.
Tends to make players on the same team more aggressive to each other.
Causes many to ramble off on their own in order to do senseless achievements just for the sake of doing them.
Makes many take up positions (such as comm) in which they are lacking skill or leadership in order to get achievements, thus the team suffers.
It should be a statistic screen with a background image, maybe aliens in in a zoo (marine win) or DI growing over a skull (alien win).
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was the most well thought response to the idea request.
It is also something that could start simple (just the screenshot)
and could become more complex after release (I love the graphs in SC2)
Yes the music is there but because of the larger map space sometimes I hear the music
and i am like "we won???" because I have been fighting for this small area we never got.
Can't wait for the marines to see my skulk with a construction worker hat!
jk, of course :-)
That's all I wanted to say.
Ex:
Build x buildings dropped by the commander (MAC? Never heard of him)
Kill x lifeform y times with z weapon (Fade/etc scorcher/shooter/blaster) Not including knife and pistol.
Heal x players to full health as gorge (I'm helping!)
Kill x marines from behind as skulk (Coppertone marine)
Destroy x buildings with explosives (A grenade a day keeps the Kharaa away)
Disable a powernode with a marine in the room (Oh shi-)
Become fully teched out as marine/alien commander (I need an outlet for my aggression) and for aliens (Now, we d0nce)
Save a fellow alien from death with umbra (Saved, Neo style)
Save a resource tower from getting destroyed (Git off mah lawn you damn aliens)
Teleport behind a marine after he sees you and kill him (Now you see me, now you don't)
Parasite x marines at the same time (Ceiling skulk is watching you)
Save a marine close to an Alien with a medkit (Oh no you don't!)
Stick together with x other heavies for 30 seconds (Here comes the heavy coal train!)
Kill an onos as a regular marine with LMG (Who the hell do you think I'am?) I don't think people would actually go out of their way to not get heavy armor and weapons just to get this achievement.
Kill a heavy as a skulk (Get this god damn thing off me!) Same here, it's just one of those things that happens time to time.
Eat a heavy as Onos (Finaly a chezeburger)
Etc.
If you are serious it's not something that would work very well in NS2. CoD has two identical teams facing each other while here it's not. It's a delicate balance and im sure it would be a lot easier (and more boring) if the devs just removed all upgrades and balanced it from there.
because if there is a ranking system or permanently saved stats people will stop
playing the game for fun and start playing it to get better stats .. thats not good..
maybe there would even be hackers wich would cheats themselves to the highest
rank to get better weapons or stuff...
winning more rewarding? hm.. maybe not go back to RR but if marines win into a
room were the alien players are in cages and the marines can laugh at them :D
or if kahaar win let them marines be glued to the wall with infestations so the aliens
can laugh at them and jump around like crazy ^^
after a short time in one of the winning roomes you'd need to go back to RR through
a door (you get transformed into a weaponless marine)
but since NS2 plans to move to console games, this idea actually might be put through. I'm sure all combat players will jump at this.
1 Marine Wins
10 Marine Wins
100 Marine Wins
onward to 10k
1 Alien Wins
10 Alien Wins
etc
if you think about it stuff like '100 fade kills' and 'build 25 extractors' still tunnel visions the focus and people will spam extractors for the achieve
rewards for winning?
give them a 'Good job!' sticker so they feel good about what they've done. just winning isn't enough...
edit: no unlock rewards that's just stupid for more time-experienced players.