I see the benefits of playing 3rd person for a melee class. I also see how exploitable that could be and blurring/obscuring vision would just be annoying, but not doing so would be cheap. Highly doubt skulks will ever be allowed to use this outside of cheats mode. Making 3rd person practical <i>and</i> fair at the same time is near impossible for reasons stated above.
..and dev 1 doesn't need to be turned on for bots just cheats 1
<!--quoteo(post=1837122:date=Mar 14 2011, 08:35 PM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Mar 14 2011, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->read it slowly. then go to the wiki and read what the arc is. then take the time to understand why an arc is a counter to seeing around corners. then edit your comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it possible you were agreeing? It looked 100% like snarking, but nothing else makes sense. <!--quoteo(post=1837125:date=Mar 14 2011, 08:44 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 14 2011, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You aren't obscuring EVERYTHING you couldn't see with first person. You aren't obscuring your ability to pan a camera and better gauge depth. First-person is better for things that first-person is better for, and I don't believe melee attacks are one of them, primarily due to the lack of depth rendered in a fixed perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And again, A) if you're not obscuring everything it's an advantage, and B) I definitely wasn't saying first person is better for melee. (It is for me personally since I feel in direct control, but I already knew this wasn't the common opinion)
<!--quoteo(post=1837134:date=Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks EASELY get within melee-range all the time (through leap and hiding), this cannot be prevented by marines. Did you even play NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I did. Is this NS1? That it worked in NS1 is not an end all fact that dictates whether it should remain in NS2. Still, even if it were,</span> is "getting within melee range" the only requisite for killing someone? 'Cause that sounds like Tag to me, not NS1. I never said it wasn't difficult to get within melee range (as you've needlessly proven), but that while a player is close to you, yet still outside your field of view (behind you), the first-person perspective makes it extremely difficult to pinpoint where that person is. <b>This disadvantage makes sense for ranged classes whose primary focus and method of killing involves linear distance. This disadvantage does not make sense for melee classes whose primary focus and method of killing involves the immediate vicinity.</b>
You ever played Street Fighter from the first person? MvC? Smash Bros.? If 3D ever leaves the realm of gimmicky, I imagine developers will start trying this, but until then, the reason why these continue to be developed as side-scrollers is (in part) because confidence in the short distances between you, your opponent, your attacks, his attacks, etc. is far more important than being able to line your crosshair with them.
<!--quoteo(post=1837134:date=Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This just comes off as if you're pisspoor at playing skulk honestly. Again, it's a skill you need to master, and you can get pretty damn good at it too if you're willing to put in the effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My statement was a broad one that extended beyond Skulks and beyond this game, as indicated (and ignored) by the general term "melee classes". Skulk, Fade, Onos, Jedi, Master Chief, Akuma. Back to the point, shooting someone a mile away is not the same as biting someone near you. Since clearly these weapons/functions are different, does it not stand to reason that they may require or make better use of different controls and perspectives?
If not, why do many games that feature both melee and ranged weaponry switch their view to third-person perspectives when switching to a melee weapon? Hint: It's not just to show off pretty animations.
However, the underlying problem may be alleviated if/when the FOV for Skulks is increased enough that it doesn't feel like a glaring issue.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And again, A) if you're not obscuring everything it's an advantage, and B) I definitely wasn't saying first person is better for melee. (It is for me personally since I feel in direct control, but I already knew this wasn't the common opinion)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) I'm aware. There are asymmetries everywhere in games, and that doesn't mean they're imbalanced. B) I wasn't implying that you were, and apologize if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2011
You don't actually have to keep looking in the direction of your target, when you're not in melee range. Anyone with an ounce of situational awareness knows where the target is, keeping them onscreen has nothing to do with this.
Your 2.5D sidescroller example makes no sense either. As this is a fully 3D environment with loads of different attack vectors, combined with circle strafing, wall/ceiling walking. I think this third person would be more of a hindrance then an aid anyway, what with the Skulk model being in the middle of your screen, like some oddly positioned weapon model, bouncing around when going from wall-ceiling-wall-floor all the while you're leaping and bouncing all over the place...
Someone was saying something along the lines of having a 3rd person obscuring absolutely everything a 1st person couldn't see, right? That it'd be just fine then?
OK, so a third person where you can't see your own model, only the first person mouth floating in the air, can't see what's behind you, can't see what parts of your claws are sticking outside your hiding spot.... *snicker*
NS2 is an FPS. If you want 3rd person view, play commander~
It seems to me like people are still talking about a problem that isn't really there. Ever tried r_drawviewmodel 0 in NS1? It turns skulks into outright killing-machines, almost unstoppable (at least it did in my case). The reason I mention NS1 is because it's good reference material. Those skulks are nasty little beasts that don't need a massive buff such as 3rd-person (not mentioning how I find 1st-person view infinitely more aesthetically pleasing).
Seeing around a corner while remaining out of view is definitely a cheat. However... Aliens <b>are</b> a team of ambushers. However, being able to see around a corner (in the manner of simply moving your view) would be unrealistic.
Anyway, bitecam is here to stay. Regardless, melee combat (especially realistic spatial awareness) needs work.
I understand why thirdperson might be op if used like normal, but what did you think was op about my idea where the abilities is turned off while in thirdperson, and you only see stuff you can see in firstperson? The reason I want such a thing is so I can hide like I intend, and not unknowingly be visible because of glitching onto wrong wall/roof. Maybe also make the camera rotate freely, without rotating your actuall player aswell?
<!--quoteo(post=1837243:date=Mar 15 2011, 10:22 AM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Mar 15 2011, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand why thirdperson might be op if used like normal, but what did you think was op about my idea where the abilities is turned off while in thirdperson, and you only see stuff you can see in firstperson?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not op just overly time consuming to code for how pointless of a feature it would be. I'm sure 3rd person will be available as a mod for server ops to permit without cheats enabled anyway but it sure shouldn't be enabled in ns2 by default for reasons stated so many times already. I can imagine how awful it would look to only see what you can in 1st person. What is the point of this? How is it not a disadvantage if anything? You would be literally moving the camera away from a 2d rectangle floating in space (think stepping back away from your monitor in a black room) and simply looking at it from a distance. Otherwise you are displaying things that could not be seen in 1st person.
Well, as I said it does have a use. There is no better way to see if a spot is good to hide in than to see it out of the eyes of a third person, so if I am not sure about a spot I could use it.
Comments
..and dev 1 doesn't need to be turned on for bots just cheats 1
Is it possible you were agreeing? It looked 100% like snarking, but nothing else makes sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1837125:date=Mar 14 2011, 08:44 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 14 2011, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You aren't obscuring EVERYTHING you couldn't see with first person. You aren't obscuring your ability to pan a camera and better gauge depth. First-person is better for things that first-person is better for, and I don't believe melee attacks are one of them, primarily due to the lack of depth rendered in a fixed perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, A) if you're not obscuring everything it's an advantage, and B) I definitely wasn't saying first person is better for melee.
(It is for me personally since I feel in direct control, but I already knew this wasn't the common opinion)
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I did. Is this NS1? That it worked in NS1 is not an end all fact that dictates whether it should remain in NS2. Still, even if it were,</span>
is "getting within melee range" the only requisite for killing someone? 'Cause that sounds like Tag to me, not NS1.
I never said it wasn't difficult to get within melee range (as you've needlessly proven), but that while a player is close to you, yet still outside your field of view (behind you), the first-person perspective makes it extremely difficult to pinpoint where that person is. <b>This disadvantage makes sense for ranged classes whose primary focus and method of killing involves linear distance. This disadvantage does not make sense for melee classes whose primary focus and method of killing involves the immediate vicinity.</b>
You ever played Street Fighter from the first person? MvC? Smash Bros.? If 3D ever leaves the realm of gimmicky, I imagine developers will start trying this, but until then, the reason why these continue to be developed as side-scrollers is (in part) because confidence in the short distances between you, your opponent, your attacks, his attacks, etc. is far more important than being able to line your crosshair with them.
<!--quoteo(post=1837134:date=Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 14 2011, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This just comes off as if you're pisspoor at playing skulk honestly. Again, it's a skill you need to master, and you can get pretty damn good at it too if you're willing to put in the effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My statement was a broad one that extended beyond Skulks and beyond this game, as indicated (and ignored) by the general term "melee classes". Skulk, Fade, Onos, Jedi, Master Chief, Akuma. Back to the point, shooting someone a mile away is not the same as biting someone near you. Since clearly these weapons/functions are different, does it not stand to reason that they may require or make better use of different controls and perspectives?
If not, why do many games that feature both melee and ranged weaponry switch their view to third-person perspectives when switching to a melee weapon? Hint: It's not just to show off pretty animations.
However, the underlying problem may be alleviated if/when the FOV for Skulks is increased enough that it doesn't feel like a glaring issue.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And again, A) if you're not obscuring everything it's an advantage, and B) I definitely wasn't saying first person is better for melee.
(It is for me personally since I feel in direct control, but I already knew this wasn't the common opinion)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) I'm aware. There are asymmetries everywhere in games, and that doesn't mean they're imbalanced.
B) I wasn't implying that you were, and apologize if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth.
Your 2.5D sidescroller example makes no sense either. As this is a fully 3D environment with loads of different attack vectors, combined with circle strafing, wall/ceiling walking. I think this third person would be more of a hindrance then an aid anyway, what with the Skulk model being in the middle of your screen, like some oddly positioned weapon model, bouncing around when going from wall-ceiling-wall-floor all the while you're leaping and bouncing all over the place...
OK, so a third person where you can't see your own model, only the first person mouth floating in the air, can't see what's behind you, can't see what parts of your claws are sticking outside your hiding spot.... *snicker*
NS2 is an FPS. If you want 3rd person view, play commander~
However...
Aliens <b>are</b> a team of ambushers.
However, being able to see around a corner (in the manner of simply moving your view) would be unrealistic.
Anyway, bitecam is here to stay. Regardless, melee combat (especially realistic spatial awareness) needs work.
The reason I want such a thing is so I can hide like I intend, and not unknowingly be visible because of glitching onto wrong wall/roof. Maybe also make the camera rotate freely, without rotating your actuall player aswell?
It's not op just overly time consuming to code for how pointless of a feature it would be. I'm sure 3rd person will be available as a mod for server ops to permit without cheats enabled anyway but it sure shouldn't be enabled in ns2 by default for reasons stated so many times already. I can imagine how awful it would look to only see what you can in 1st person. What is the point of this? How is it not a disadvantage if anything? You would be literally moving the camera away from a 2d rectangle floating in space (think stepping back away from your monitor in a black room) and simply looking at it from a distance. Otherwise you are displaying things that could not be seen in 1st person.