direction of ns2 gameplay/feel
Narcil
Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41426Members
Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41426Members
I realise that it is beta and all that,
But I played a reasonably good game of ns1 a couple of days ago (and its still the best game ever), its fast paced, strategic, rewarding etc.
I just finished playing a quality game of ns2 with 6 players on each side (teamwork and all that),<u> it is so slow</u>, not fps (60-80ish), just movement. its sluggish and heavy and basically boring to play (not the strategy, but the skirmishes). I just dont get the same sense of satisfaction from playing ns2.
Basically if the game is released with this "Slow" gameplay then it will quickly lose its appeal (for me anyway). I'm curious if the devs know about this and plan to make it have the same feel as ns1, or if this slow game that is ns2 currently is a what the devs actually want.
I know that if it remains this way then I will be happy that my preorder repaid the devs for their free mod NS1, and NS2 will be quicky deleted off my HDD.
But I played a reasonably good game of ns1 a couple of days ago (and its still the best game ever), its fast paced, strategic, rewarding etc.
I just finished playing a quality game of ns2 with 6 players on each side (teamwork and all that),<u> it is so slow</u>, not fps (60-80ish), just movement. its sluggish and heavy and basically boring to play (not the strategy, but the skirmishes). I just dont get the same sense of satisfaction from playing ns2.
Basically if the game is released with this "Slow" gameplay then it will quickly lose its appeal (for me anyway). I'm curious if the devs know about this and plan to make it have the same feel as ns1, or if this slow game that is ns2 currently is a what the devs actually want.
I know that if it remains this way then I will be happy that my preorder repaid the devs for their free mod NS1, and NS2 will be quicky deleted off my HDD.
Comments
Not to mention that the tweaking/balancing has still yet to come forward!
I do kind of agree that the pace of the games in NS2 is not as fast as its prequel but it still has the teamwork flavour to it which is a huge reason why I still enjoy NS2.
What I'm saying is that wait possibly till the first release where (hopefully) all the features are added in and most of the balancing will be worked out.
I remember when I was playing NS 1.04 I found it was not as fast paced compared to NS 2.0 and above! They did many tweaks and balances which changed that.
I will say though, that slower game types are actually more tactical and strategic than faster games. You may have games that are fast and very strategic, but your brain is limited in how many things you can do at once.
I think it is a combination of speed, distance and time.
Take Quake 3 for example:
# If for instance you put a load of fast moving players within a small room, there is no thinking time, just shoot to kill. It got boring fast (imo).
# If you play larger levels, such as capture the flag, they are so big that movement speed becomes irrelevant because of scale. Which gives you time think and plan.
NS1 is fast in terms of action, but long corridors and expansive maps mean that tactically you have time to think between attacks, and time to chat and plan them.
I do think however, that NS2 is on the right track. I used to play some very fast games, and when you play anything that is slower it does feel restrictive. It would do.
It doesn't mean it is bad, or that it is not working though. The LMG and Pistol Marines vs Skulk gameplay at the moment is beginning to feel fantastic. Their roles are becoming very defined with each release.
You have to remember as well that NS1 has been designed for a very hardcore close nit community, and you can't sell a game to a limited group of people because you can't make a living out of it.
I agree that NS2 is rather cumbersome compared to NS1 but currently the maps are small (Tram is a medium sized map, Clanderstine (a fan-made map) is quite big compared to it) so that means the slower the pace then the larger the maps will feel.
Personally, I do not like the Sprinting for the marines. It just doens't feel right, it makes it hard for things to kill marines while they are sprinting. I can kill one if I leap towards them and bite them in the back as they normally run away when they are on low hp. Another way to kill them would probably be to parasite them but parasite doesn't do enough damage to ensure a death.
The skulks are a bit too slow at the moment but this is currently a good thing as wall running is slightly bad. Hopefully when they release that new improved version we might see some speed updates (Who knows).
I don't mind the speed of the game at the moment as the maps are small but when the maps get slightly larger my opinion will change. For now though I will just stick to the fact that skulks are quite slow compared to NS1 skulks. That is all.
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Everything needs to be balanced and polished still. There are clearly some code based issue when it comes to registering bites on models that are moving away from you at the same speed. This is more pronounced with Fades than Skulks at the moment.
I think Sprint is a good edition, but perhaps (like the Lerks gained momentum from bobbing your crosshair*) Marines could have some sort of movement based skill when sprinting. Sort of leaps and slides perhaps, that require rhythmic movement of the crosshair.
Whilst I am not for that movement skill I am not going to mention, when doing so you can really 'feel' your momentum increase as you move your crosshair about.
If the sprint could introduce some sort of crosshair bobbing that enabled you to run faster with rhythmic movements and jump further, this sort of thing might please the more hardcore community whilst not being overly dominating.
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I would not classify the gameplay as sluggish.
But I also will reserve judgement until the following.
<ul><li>Feature Complete</li><li>Optimization</li></ul>
This whole discussion although healthy is in the realm of Balance which should be executed close to the end.
which could explain sluggish movement for everyone, but aliens generally much slower than marines currently.
as for someone saying sprint is good addition, it might be but since aliens already are slow to begin with, it isn't good at all. And since sprint has no cooldown system, which means marine can sprint the whole map without needing to stop, is a problem.
I agree with the OP. The gameplay is very slow paced, and can get ridiculous when you finally find the enemy and the both of you are circle-jumping-strafing around the room.
Sprinting everywhere seems like a good way to get killed simply because of how OP the skulk-bite range is... Why close the distance?? How about you fire your weapon from a distance instead. There's also that nasty disabled-trigger delay when you attempt to stop sprinting to fire your weapon. The game clearly forces you to walk everywhere, move cautiously (skulks may be waiting on ceilings... lost count how many times coms told me a skulk was behind me), and definitely use sprint sparingly.
If this is what the game was going for then it succeeded. With such slow paced gameplay i'm surprised there's no silencers/scopes/reddots on the pistols and rifles... i have all the time in the world to aim them as i creep through the halls RainbowSix style. The shotgun clearly needs an Eotech or aimpoint (move the ammo readout to the left side, remove the pointless glowing marbles, and give us some optics-rails).
I think the game is focused too much on the first impression with fancy graphics and effects but it is not worth it if it comes inexchange for longevity.
The game is unfinished, you haven't got the final playing experience. Performance issues are what will make you feel like the game is slow and unresponsive, with Zek hitting on one of the main performance issues.
As far as gameplay goes sure, I think multiple commanders messing up with other peoples resources and workflow, trying to work on a power grid and controlling certain tech points with certain resource points while trying to RTS human players isn't going to work amazingly well but, as I said, it's unfinished, let's reserve judgement until we see that final playing experience.
First thing I reacted to was the player movement. Marines felt so sluggish as been said in this thread already. Hated that the backspeed was so slow. Was it like this in ns1? I can't remember as it's been so very long now since I played it.
I felt that weapons didn't have proper 'feel' to them, probably due to the total lack of recoil. Is this final? I'm so noob here I haven't read up on all the discussions.
Headshots don't exist do they? Has there been any talk about this?
This is just a spontaneous reaction from an old quake and half-life player. I realize NS is partly RTS and I love that, but it feels like the skill cap for player combat is pretty limited (as it is right now!).
Try not to flame the noob too much now :)
Sprinting everywhere seems like a good way to get killed simply because of how OP the skulk-bite range is... Why close the distance?? How about you fire your weapon from a distance instead. There's also that nasty disabled-trigger delay when you attempt to stop sprinting to fire your weapon. The game clearly forces you to walk everywhere, move cautiously (skulks may be waiting on ceilings... lost count how many times coms told me a skulk was behind me), and definitely use sprint sparingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always though sprint was more for escaping than regular travelling, and it has worked perfectly for me when using it as such. Sure, also sprint between places you know are under your control, as that has minimal risk involved. But if I am exploring a new area, or a definite allien controlled area, I always walk. Unless I am feeling brave and decide to chase down an alien.
The Skulk bite isn't that over powered. 3 bites to kill a full hp/ap marine, and it has half the range of the marine rifle butt.
You do understand that this is because no one can hit eachother due to performance issues, right?
Get better at the game then. I can easily kill a lone marine that is jumping around. Why don't you just try and aim for them instead of making up something that is obviously due to the fact that the game is issues with performance.
My interpretation is this is the only alternative the skulk has to playing stealthily. i.e. jump around with LMB depressed and watch all those marines in front of you die with the least amount of effort. But i do agree that when the hit detection of the rifle is improved, that more alien players will utilize stealth-based attacks, which may make the gameplay feel even slower (for all those that think we're playing counterstrike right now).
Also i think the devs intend for skulks to play more stealthy, i.e. the new alien vision [to help fight/camp in the dark] and improved wall-walking [to help camp on the ceiling.. what else?]. Also doesn't the DI give aliens a sort of hive-sight for any marine standing on it? If so then that just helps the aliens establish ambushes on the fly.
Perhaps when marines get motion-tracking that gameplay will be fast again, much like how "nano vision" prevents crysis 2 from being slow paced.
I think the currently sluggishness is due to a few things, including unoptimized graphics, networking and input. We also started over from scratch with the movement code (since it's not based on Half-life) so we probably need to make some changes there to make it feel more responsive.
I don't know if it will ever be as "fast" as NS1 (that was a pretty different era and FPS games have changed a lot) but we will get it feeling much more responsive.
<me> sniff::sniff, cry::cry
Ah well, there's better stuff to cry about in the real world out there, like tsunamis, nuclear meltdowns, and earthquakes.
Ah well, there's better stuff to cry about in the real world out there, like tsunamis, nuclear meltdowns, and earthquakes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And whether or not Rachel and Ross get back together again!
It's not really about what I want (okay, it isn't just about what I want), it's about what's best for the game. The current market has <b>nothing but</b> "slow" gameplay. NS2 should strive to be different. In the end, shiny graphics, game features... none of that matters for the game's enjoyment and longevity. What matters is the combat and the gameplay; foremost, the pacing. If the game's as slow as any other, the novelty of fighting space aliens, or fighting as space aliens, will eventually wear off... This is especially important because games are going to be, on average, shorter in NS2 than NS1. There's less time to get your fun out of a game.