Gorge vs. Kharaa-Comm
KuBaN
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A Balancing of Power</div><u>Preface:</u>
This suggestion is predicated on my understanding of DI's intended implementation (vs. current implementation). From the Tech Demo and other sources, I see Dynamic Infestation eventually working a bit like <a href="http://www.gamezhero.com/online-games/strategy-games/tentaclewarsthepurplemenace-games.html?level_id=52a93be4c78af4f1a483522c2777b11c" target="_blank">Tentacle Wars</a> vs. World of Goo:
<i>Infest drops a waypoint marker, and a bulge of infestation (as seen in the Tech Demo) travels from the infesting structure along a network of infestation (nodes) to the designated spot. Infestation spreads in it's wake, climbing walls and ceilings. A bulge of infestation would remain at the spot (becoming a node) and spread in all directions. Subsequent infestations travel the entire distance from the Hive (to naturally hinder "reaching" or insecure branching with infestation) </i>
Assuming I have this somewhat correct, the following suggestions are my attempt at restoring purpose to the Gorge without downplaying the Alien Commander's role:
<u>Suggested Changes:</u><ul><li> <b>DI</b>: Infestation travels at Skulk-speed while on infestation, and slows down to a Gorge's crawl when off of it.</li><li> <b>DI</b> nodes become reinforced if they are connected to a hive, harvester, or at least <number> other infestation nodes. Reinforced DI grows thicker (less susceptible to damage).</li><li> <strike><b>DI</b> travels slower as it branches/reaches from the network (slowddown distance scales with the size of the map).</strike></li><li> <b>Gorge</b>'s Belly Slide spreads infestation when starting from infestation.</li><li> <b>Gorge</b> can place precursors to Harvesters (Larvae) that also grow small infestation in place of simply spawning infestation patches. Commander evolves Larvae into Harvesters (but can still place Harvesters normally, if DI is provided otherwise).</li><li> <b>Harvesters</b> have the Infest ability and an Energy pool significantly smaller (1/4) than a Hive Mass.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Energy when Infest-networked to a Harvester.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Health when Infest-networked to a Hive.</li></ul>
<u>Observations:</u>
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Harvester Larvae give the Gorge increased potential to assist commanders (with something they used to do independently, dropping RTs) without spending personal resources.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Greater bonuses/importance on bridging infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Allows rogue capping res nodes, but leaves them vulnerable until the node is networked.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Promotes strengthening of infestation networks.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->- Might be assuming too much about intended features or proposing too much that isn't intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This suggestion is predicated on my understanding of DI's intended implementation (vs. current implementation). From the Tech Demo and other sources, I see Dynamic Infestation eventually working a bit like <a href="http://www.gamezhero.com/online-games/strategy-games/tentaclewarsthepurplemenace-games.html?level_id=52a93be4c78af4f1a483522c2777b11c" target="_blank">Tentacle Wars</a> vs. World of Goo:
<i>Infest drops a waypoint marker, and a bulge of infestation (as seen in the Tech Demo) travels from the infesting structure along a network of infestation (nodes) to the designated spot. Infestation spreads in it's wake, climbing walls and ceilings. A bulge of infestation would remain at the spot (becoming a node) and spread in all directions. Subsequent infestations travel the entire distance from the Hive (to naturally hinder "reaching" or insecure branching with infestation) </i>
Assuming I have this somewhat correct, the following suggestions are my attempt at restoring purpose to the Gorge without downplaying the Alien Commander's role:
<u>Suggested Changes:</u><ul><li> <b>DI</b>: Infestation travels at Skulk-speed while on infestation, and slows down to a Gorge's crawl when off of it.</li><li> <b>DI</b> nodes become reinforced if they are connected to a hive, harvester, or at least <number> other infestation nodes. Reinforced DI grows thicker (less susceptible to damage).</li><li> <strike><b>DI</b> travels slower as it branches/reaches from the network (slowddown distance scales with the size of the map).</strike></li><li> <b>Gorge</b>'s Belly Slide spreads infestation when starting from infestation.</li><li> <b>Gorge</b> can place precursors to Harvesters (Larvae) that also grow small infestation in place of simply spawning infestation patches. Commander evolves Larvae into Harvesters (but can still place Harvesters normally, if DI is provided otherwise).</li><li> <b>Harvesters</b> have the Infest ability and an Energy pool significantly smaller (1/4) than a Hive Mass.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Energy when Infest-networked to a Harvester.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Health when Infest-networked to a Hive.</li></ul>
<u>Observations:</u>
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Harvester Larvae give the Gorge increased potential to assist commanders (with something they used to do independently, dropping RTs) without spending personal resources.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Greater bonuses/importance on bridging infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Allows rogue capping res nodes, but leaves them vulnerable until the node is networked.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+ Promotes strengthening of infestation networks.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->- Might be assuming too much about intended features or proposing too much that isn't intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
<b>Commander</b> : Territory Control + Invasion
<b>Gorge</b> : Tactical Placement + POI Securing
If DI is going to be become the same as, or similar to, the 2006 tech demo; gorges should be able to place DI for the purpose of procuring harvesters, as a precursor to hydra placement and to provide the commander tactical structure placement (forward crag placement to secure an area).
I think having a new "structure" for tactical DI placement might be a useful addition. Something like a small "bulb" that, when killed, all DI not connected to it, or an existing DI patch would recede. This bulb would have to have a limited active area, so you can't place a bulb in a remote location and spread out across the map from this location (that wouldn't be a smart tactic anyway). The gorge would plant the bulb instead (or in addition to?) vomiting up DI.
One system I do agree with is automatic DI infestation using waypoints to guide DI growth - rather than the current "spawn DI here" system.
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1. You never explain what you mean by an "infestation node"
2. Again the infestation node explanation is required to fully understand this point.
3. Wouldn't this cause problems when spreading DI to far off places?
4. No need to complicate things with obscure mechanics.
5. Again, no need to complicate a relatively simple mechanic (place DI, get come to place havester)
6. Perhaps, something like this might already be planned (UWE mentioned self-sustained Havesters)
7. Alien structures can't be placed off DI, and die when no DI is present.
8. See above.
^ Off-topic?
<i>[removed]</i>
I'm a little unsure what you mean by a node, are these what were previously waypoints (as in the image above), and/or things placed by a gorge? So for example, if the above was a node, and there were a marker placed beyond that, it would first travel to the node, then to the marker.
Btw, this may be of interest: <a href="http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/01/slime-mold-grows-network-just-like-tokyo-rail-system/" target="_blank">http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/01/...yo-rail-system/</a>
Preview:
<img src="http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2010/01/slime_mold_1-660x501.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
That was the intention of the Larvae. Since the game's focal points have shifted to control points, it makes sense to make DI/structures dependent on or central to that control point. This also limits the Gorge from placing infestation in just any remote location and spreading it across the map, but still provides him some mobility.
Harimau's graphic illustrates more or less how I understand UWE intends to implement DI, the bright points being infestation waypoints/nodes.
1, 2) By nodes I just meant the points where the commander orders "infest" and the infestation then spreads to. In SC2, Creep Colonies are "nodes" from which Creep spawns.
3) That was a relic from an unrefined thought process. This would occur naturally given that each infestation "bulb" starts off from the originating structure and moves quicker on Infestation. Amended.
4) The mechanic is hardly obscure, unless you've never spread butter over toast. The intention is to change the way the Gorge spreads infestation using a pre-existing mechanic, to free up an ability slot. Besides, as it is, Belly Slide is somewhat useless.
5) This ultimately just limits the Gorge to <b>placing</b> DI on Resource Points (<b>spreading</b> DI is done via Belly Slide). DI should originate from one structure or another, and destroying that structure should cause DI to recede. That's sort of just the way I always understood it to work, so there needed to be a structure for the DI to originate from before a Harvester is placed.
7, 8) You must be misreading this, because it doesn't imply that there won't be DI, just that a Harvester or Hive may not necessarily be linked or bridged via infestation to it. If DI originated from focal structures (Harvesters and Hives) at tech points and res nodes, there is the possibility that, for instance, a Res Node with a Harvester would not be connected to a Hive. This was to stress the importance of connecting infestation networks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> <b>DI</b>: Infestation travels at Skulk-speed while on infestation, and slows down to a Gorge's crawl when off of it.</li><li> <b>DI</b> nodes become reinforced if they are connected to a hive, harvester, or at least <number> other infestation nodes. Reinforced DI grows thicker (less susceptible to damage).</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE will overhaul DI eventually. I suspect things like this (and many more ideas) will be implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> <b>Gorge</b>'s Belly Slide spreads infestation when starting from infestation.</li><li> <b>Gorge</b> can place precursors to Harvesters (Larvae) that also grow small infestation in place of simply spawning infestation patches. Commander evolves Larvae into Harvesters (but can still place Harvesters normally, if DI is provided otherwise).</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of these may also be op. Belly slide DI would make spreading DI to marine start way too easy and the res node larvae would mean I could run around the map and cap all open res nodes quickly (denying them to the marines early in the game). The only way I could see this work is if gorges could drop harvesters directly (like in NS1) and they were expensive (like 60 PRes) to do so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> <b>Harvesters</b> have the Infest ability and an Energy pool significantly smaller (1/4) than a Hive Mass.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Energy when Infest-networked to a Harvester.</li><li> <b>Alien Structures</b> only regenerate Health when Infest-networked to a Hive.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, first idea is way op. As alien comm, I can already spread DI to all res nodes and marine start on tram within the first 15 mins of a match. Make it so harvesters can also spread DI and I'll cover every inch of tram in DI in a very short period of time. The others are ok, but I suspect UWE will do something similar once they overhaul DI.
As for anything being "OP," values can always be tweaked, I'm mostly talking about concepts in order to illustrate an overall vision. Try not to envision these things in the current game, but in what the finished product is supposed to be, which is difficult to see since a lot of details are still undecided or obscured, which is most of the reason for this post (I feel if we had a better idea of how certain features are anticipation to work [more technically than conceptually] there would be a lessening of suggestions).
The Pod wouldn't allow you to you run around capping everything, as it would still cost the commander team res to evolve it to a Harvester. Originally my idea required that the commander bridge the Hive's infestation in order to gain control of the structure, but I figured I was already complicated things as it was. <b>Truthfully, I could have just suggested that the Gorge only be allowed to drop infestation on Res Nodes yet still be able to spread it anywhere and achieved the same effect I suppose.</b>
What I would like to see with DI is partially a reversal of that, and partially playing it straight. This could be very intensive, but it's just what I want to see.
Essentially there are two kinds of DI: A thick tendril / a link - veins between nodes; and a bundle of thin tendrils / a wave - the flat moss.
The alien commander places the marker, DI travels as a single tendril to that marker (with thin tendril waves slowly emitting from the main tendril); if the marker is not something of interest (a 'node'), it will disperse, flatten and weaken to "regular DI" (just the standard 'wave'), if it is a node, it will remain as a DI "link".
Now, nodes can be any kind of structure. Different structures could possibly have different spreading strengths, with the hive being strongest of all and resource towers coming close.
Regardless, DI will always spread out as thin tendrils, or a wave of them, and they will spread outward from each node, and spread faster when closer to the node from which they spread. If they reach a node, a strong "link" will be made with other nodes within reasonable proximity. With time, the thickness of the flat DI could increase (and so too would the strength).
Thick "links" will take a lot of fire damage to destroy, but the standard flat "wave" will be very easy to clear (depending on its thickness). This makes it easy enough for marines to clear away the territorial advantages (such as hive sight) of flat "wave" DI, but hard to break the DI-supporting links to alien nodes/structures.
Now, a gorge could spit a blob of infestation, which would act as a node which reduces in strength as it spreads out - for any sort of permanent node he would have to place a structure, e.g. a hydra. If after spreading out completely it's not linked to a 'supporting node', it will begin to recede. Similarly, any DI not connected to a 'supporting node' (e.g. a hive, possibly a resource node) will recede.
Something like this perhaps:
Brown dots are DI markers, red circles are structures/DI nodes.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/uyBjD.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The only way this wouldn't be op is if the marines could still build on the res node if the alien comm hadn't upgraded the pod to a harvester yet. I originally read this as it would be like current DI where the marines couldn't build structures on it. If that was the case, then it wouldn't matter if the alien comm built a harvester on it, because the gorges could effectively deny the marines any open res node just by dropping a pod.
Brown dots are DI markers, red circles are structures/DI nodes.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/uyBjD.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good picture and I like the way this seems. I think the main way the infestation grows should be the path you set but it also grows slowly in other areas so they it can cover the ceilings. This is would I portray the DI to be like.
Also, the gorge is lacking a few things now like building. The alien commander cannot place waypoints for the Aliens (And will never do so) but what about if the Alien commander could place waypoints for the Gorges. That means there would be a connection between Gorges and Alien commanders.
For example:
I am a commander. I send a drifter to a Resource Node. I want a gorge to heal the Resource Node while the infestation makes its way there.
So, I send to gorge to this Resource node and he is acompanied by a Drifter. He sicks up a bit of DI around the node so I can place a resource tower. I place the resource tower there and I make a path (Like Hari's picture) for the DI so it can get there. The gorge is there just healing and placing DI for the resource tower then as soon as the Infestation has got there the little 'Mission' is done.
I would like to see that kind of connection between the Alien commander and the Gorges. It can be used in the Current gameplay but it is rarely used. It needs to be used more on maps like Tram because the power nodes are far away from the hives. This gives the Gorges another role as well.
1 question though:
Do gorges heal make Structures grow faster?
I assume you know about Pheromone markers the alien comm can place?
I am guessing that the pheromone markers alert the whole team to say "Attack here" or "Defend here". I meant that you cannot assign individual waypoints for certain people.
I am guessing that the pheromone markers alert the whole team to say "Attack here" or "Defend here". I meant that you cannot assign individual waypoints for certain people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it wouldn't hurt to allow aliens to see the auto-waypoints if they point at their views at the markers. It would prevent new players from getting lost, and help them learn to navigate the map.
Right, but can't yet.