<!--quoteo(post=1836786:date=Mar 10 2011, 10:41 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 10 2011, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't recall them ever talking about the jetpack. Can you bring up a quote?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no mention of it being a boosted jump, they said "fly over short distances"
it was said that they can only use lmg, pistol, axe, shotgun, lmg-gl and not minigun or flamer. cory said that somewhere.
nerfs can always be dealt in the form of shortened jetpack flight if that needs to be. as to whether or not they should be in the game? hells yes. no jetpack = no need for web = sad face. i made a thread a long time ago about fade vs. jp mechanics. we're just going to have to wait until its in the game before we can say "we told you so."
The speed of all of the players in NS2 have been decreased. The aliens are slower (More vulnerable to Shotgun and Rifle/Pistol).
If the Jet-Pack is the same(+/-) speed as everything else then maybe it can be quite easy to use the Skulk Leap. Maybe a nerf for the Jetpack could be that "If you get hit by a skulk leaping then you will fall to the ground" <--- this makes sense as well.
All I can say is that:
"Wait until the Jet-Pack is out before assuming that it is not going to fit in the game"
The counter to jetpacks in NS1 was skulks with leap, lerks and fades with blink.
In NS2 skulks don't have the air control and fades don't have the blink or air control to be a good counter against JP. In NS2 the lerk should be a better counter than it was in NS1 and hydras are probably a better counter than offense chambers because they only cost personal res.
They only cost "personal" res in NS1 too, but since there was a huge opportunity cost(you could have built upgrade chambers, RTs or hives with your personal res instead of OC) you were constrained from placing OCs liberally by both common sense and embarassment at having your team yell at you for spamming OCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1836810:date=Mar 11 2011, 05:20 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Mar 11 2011, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The counter to jetpacks in NS1 was skulks with leap, lerks and fades with blink.
In NS2 skulks don't have the air control and fades don't have the blink or air control to be a good counter against JP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh wow someone who actually understands the importance of air control for alien movement on the hl engine. The ignorance about this (even among some ns1 players) is astonishing. Now everyone cries to nerf marines maybe we should fix the aliens first?
The problem I've always had with abilities such as the jetpack (there are similar situations in other games like Gloom and Tremulous) is how they are very "binary" in terms of how skilled you have to be to counter them. A new and/or unskilled player stands close to zero chance of countering a jetpack, which leads to frustration since it becomes very obvious that he is unable to help out his team even in the slightest.
On the other hand, jetpacks create an interesting dynamic for the comparably small group of players skilled enough to counter them reliably.
I believe that to create a successful game you need to cater to both these groups of players - your game needs to have interesting dynamics so the veterans always have something to strive to master, but without causing (too much) frustration in newcomers. This is something that UWE should consider when balancing the jetpacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1836831:date=Mar 11 2011, 03:25 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 11 2011, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh wow someone who actually understands the importance of air control for alien movement on the hl engine. The ignorance about this (even among some ns1 players) is astonishing. Now everyone cries to nerf marines maybe we should fix the aliens first?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks shouldn't have any air control, so I hope you are not agreeing with that part. As for Fades, with blink the way it is, they should also not have any air control. It only makes sense. Whether blink should be replaced by NS1 blink (or NS1 blink added as a complimentary skill) is a different question that I am sure will be answered soon enough, when we can actually accurately gauge the usefullness.
If gorges get the ability to use webs, and they are made any useful at all, that would be a major reason for people to use the Gorge (not many people see a point at the moment, what with hydras lagging out the game, and everything else the gorge does possible by the commander). I also really like the idea of a leaping skulk brinigng down a jetpacking marine. Maybe a brief disabling of the jetpack as well, so that they don't just fly off. Also a stun effect for a few seconds, dependent on height fallen.
<!--quoteo(post=1836969:date=Mar 13 2011, 03:30 PM:name=Nilar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nilar @ Mar 13 2011, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I've always had with abilities such as the jetpack (there are similar situations in other games like Gloom and Tremulous) is how they are very "binary" in terms of how skilled you have to be to counter them. A new and/or unskilled player stands close to zero chance of countering a jetpack, which leads to frustration since it becomes very obvious that he is unable to help out his team even in the slightest.
On the other hand, jetpacks create an interesting dynamic for the comparably small group of players skilled enough to counter them reliably.
I believe that to create a successful game you need to cater to both these groups of players - your game needs to have interesting dynamics so the veterans always have something to strive to master, but without causing (too much) frustration in newcomers. This is something that UWE should consider when balancing the jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't call the skill requirement binary, but it's pretty steep when it comes to players of different skill. I can handle the average public jetpacker just fine, but most people above my skill level get very difficult to eliminate in any kind of direct fight. On a newbie vs newbie it should still be pretty manageable, since the jetpack and aiming aren't easily managed by a newbie either.
I guess it's a little similar thingy as NS1 fades; once the skill gap grows big enough, the more skilled player becomes quite dominant. I don't know whether that could become an issue with NS2, it depends a lot on the size of community and how the different skill layers populate the servers. In general I believe very few games are worth playing unless the players are relatively close in skill though, so managing the balance between different skill levels isn't my top priority as long as players of similar skill still find it balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1836980:date=Mar 13 2011, 10:54 AM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 13 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks shouldn't have any air control, so I hope you are not agreeing with that part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No I am. Skulks should have air control, they are a melee class that needs to maximize maneuverability. You read the thread about game play being slow and everyone that feels the same? It's because of a lack of features like this that kept ns1 feeling fluid and faster paced. Try to argue against it but it's a fact the ns1 skulk played much tighter and responsive.. with air control.
without any skill based movement, and air control or momentum in-game player movement will feel sluggish for awhile but I like to think developers are aware of this problem, at least I hope they realize the importance of it.
Comments
"there are very few situations that cannot be improved by jetpacks"
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/5/friday_update_build_148_jetpacks_and_legos" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...packs_and_legos</a>
no mention of it being a boosted jump, they said "fly over short distances"
it was said that they can only use lmg, pistol, axe, shotgun, lmg-gl and not minigun or flamer. cory said that somewhere.
nerfs can always be dealt in the form of shortened jetpack flight if that needs to be. as to whether or not they should be in the game? hells yes. no jetpack = no need for web = sad face. i made a thread a long time ago about fade vs. jp mechanics. we're just going to have to wait until its in the game before we can say "we told you so."
If the Jet-Pack is the same(+/-) speed as everything else then maybe it can be quite easy to use the Skulk Leap. Maybe a nerf for the Jetpack could be that "If you get hit by a skulk leaping then you will fall to the ground" <--- this makes sense as well.
All I can say is that:
"Wait until the Jet-Pack is out before assuming that it is not going to fit in the game"
Sorry about the multipost guys...
In NS2 skulks don't have the air control and fades don't have the blink or air control to be a good counter against JP.
In NS2 the lerk should be a better counter than it was in NS1 and hydras are probably a better counter than offense chambers because they only cost personal res.
They only cost "personal" res in NS1 too, but since there was a huge opportunity cost(you could have built upgrade chambers, RTs or hives with your personal res instead of OC) you were constrained from placing OCs liberally by both common sense and embarassment at having your team yell at you for spamming OCs.
In NS2 skulks don't have the air control and fades don't have the blink or air control to be a good counter against JP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow someone who actually understands the importance of air control for alien movement on the hl engine. The ignorance about this (even among some ns1 players) is astonishing. Now everyone cries to nerf marines maybe we should fix the aliens first?
On the other hand, jetpacks create an interesting dynamic for the comparably small group of players skilled enough to counter them reliably.
I believe that to create a successful game you need to cater to both these groups of players - your game needs to have interesting dynamics so the veterans always have something to strive to master, but without causing (too much) frustration in newcomers. This is something that UWE should consider when balancing the jetpacks.
Skulks shouldn't have any air control, so I hope you are not agreeing with that part. As for Fades, with blink the way it is, they should also not have any air control. It only makes sense. Whether blink should be replaced by NS1 blink (or NS1 blink added as a complimentary skill) is a different question that I am sure will be answered soon enough, when we can actually accurately gauge the usefullness.
If gorges get the ability to use webs, and they are made any useful at all, that would be a major reason for people to use the Gorge (not many people see a point at the moment, what with hydras lagging out the game, and everything else the gorge does possible by the commander). I also really like the idea of a leaping skulk brinigng down a jetpacking marine. Maybe a brief disabling of the jetpack as well, so that they don't just fly off. Also a stun effect for a few seconds, dependent on height fallen.
On the other hand, jetpacks create an interesting dynamic for the comparably small group of players skilled enough to counter them reliably.
I believe that to create a successful game you need to cater to both these groups of players - your game needs to have interesting dynamics so the veterans always have something to strive to master, but without causing (too much) frustration in newcomers. This is something that UWE should consider when balancing the jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call the skill requirement binary, but it's pretty steep when it comes to players of different skill. I can handle the average public jetpacker just fine, but most people above my skill level get very difficult to eliminate in any kind of direct fight. On a newbie vs newbie it should still be pretty manageable, since the jetpack and aiming aren't easily managed by a newbie either.
I guess it's a little similar thingy as NS1 fades; once the skill gap grows big enough, the more skilled player becomes quite dominant. I don't know whether that could become an issue with NS2, it depends a lot on the size of community and how the different skill layers populate the servers. In general I believe very few games are worth playing unless the players are relatively close in skill though, so managing the balance between different skill levels isn't my top priority as long as players of similar skill still find it balanced.
No I am. Skulks should have air control, they are a melee class that needs to maximize maneuverability. You read the thread about game play being slow and everyone that feels the same? It's because of a lack of features like this that kept ns1 feeling fluid and faster paced. Try to argue against it but it's a fact the ns1 skulk played much tighter and responsive.. with air control.