NS2 Arcade Style Benefits
Zuriki
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Relates to teamwork</div>I was thinking about how teamwork isn't influenced by any game mechanic (besides the obvious side-effect of meatshield team mates and the extra firepower, which proves an inefficient bait to teamwork). UWE thought about implementing squad-based armour bonus, and it got me thinking about a possible implementation however it's sort of "arcade-ish" in it's manner.
Taking the idea of RPG style leveling using a masked XP system (the player never sees how much XP they have and are never alerted when they gain XP points, perhaps not even aware of their ranking?) basically how this works is; players in a squad are advantaged by boosted armour/damage or something (didn't really think of specific gains, that's up to UWE) and gain XP whilst in a squad, making kills. <i><b>Everyone in the squad benefits from the kills by gaining XP</b></i> (regardless of who made the kill*).
I want to make a note that higher ranking provides <i><b>NO benefits outside of a squad</b></i>, benefits only apply inside a squad, and with that <i><b>XP cannot be gained outside of a squad</b></i>, so <i><b>going rambo will not provide you with EPIC LUTES!</b></i>
Secondly, <i><b>if you die your rank/xp reset to zero!</b></i> This prevents squads stacking XP and being all-powerful. Also this also provides a sort of "value" to your life which currently isn't present. <i><b>It punishes death</b></i>, and if a squad dies and you're last-man-standing. Chances are you'll be dead pretty soon, so squads that suicide rush will all loose any gained benefits.
I think this solution, though rather more complex, is slightly more elegant. Firstly, you don't instantly gain extra defensive/offensive capabilities by being in a squad (other than the aforementioned meatshields) unless you've been working well as a team player for awhile. And it has the added bonus of bodies being valuable to keep alive meaning squads will (might) <i><b>play more tactically</b></i> and<b><i> squads who are heavily hit will (might) pullback</i></b> - as you would expect if they were real people.
*This actually works out pretty well, because if you're not firing any bullets you and your squad will die. Plus, if your squad is dead, you loose the benefits of working the squad. Plus, if you're in a squad, you're going to be killing things anyway, so what does it matter if Eric puts the killing bullet in the skulk after you emptied a clip into it.
<b>I would really like to hear your opinions. I'm sure you can much improve on my idea or completely shoot it down if you think it's too arcade-ish for NS2. I just really want to see teamwork being encouraged more (especially on pub games), and I think rewarding teamplay is the best route for this.</b>
Taking the idea of RPG style leveling using a masked XP system (the player never sees how much XP they have and are never alerted when they gain XP points, perhaps not even aware of their ranking?) basically how this works is; players in a squad are advantaged by boosted armour/damage or something (didn't really think of specific gains, that's up to UWE) and gain XP whilst in a squad, making kills. <i><b>Everyone in the squad benefits from the kills by gaining XP</b></i> (regardless of who made the kill*).
I want to make a note that higher ranking provides <i><b>NO benefits outside of a squad</b></i>, benefits only apply inside a squad, and with that <i><b>XP cannot be gained outside of a squad</b></i>, so <i><b>going rambo will not provide you with EPIC LUTES!</b></i>
Secondly, <i><b>if you die your rank/xp reset to zero!</b></i> This prevents squads stacking XP and being all-powerful. Also this also provides a sort of "value" to your life which currently isn't present. <i><b>It punishes death</b></i>, and if a squad dies and you're last-man-standing. Chances are you'll be dead pretty soon, so squads that suicide rush will all loose any gained benefits.
I think this solution, though rather more complex, is slightly more elegant. Firstly, you don't instantly gain extra defensive/offensive capabilities by being in a squad (other than the aforementioned meatshields) unless you've been working well as a team player for awhile. And it has the added bonus of bodies being valuable to keep alive meaning squads will (might) <i><b>play more tactically</b></i> and<b><i> squads who are heavily hit will (might) pullback</i></b> - as you would expect if they were real people.
*This actually works out pretty well, because if you're not firing any bullets you and your squad will die. Plus, if your squad is dead, you loose the benefits of working the squad. Plus, if you're in a squad, you're going to be killing things anyway, so what does it matter if Eric puts the killing bullet in the skulk after you emptied a clip into it.
<b>I would really like to hear your opinions. I'm sure you can much improve on my idea or completely shoot it down if you think it's too arcade-ish for NS2. I just really want to see teamwork being encouraged more (especially on pub games), and I think rewarding teamplay is the best route for this.</b>
Comments
I like the basic thrust, but I have a few bones to pick.
First, hidden/opaque game mechanics are typically a bad idea. I remember raging quite hard when I couldn't find in SupComm how much damage a unit did, and eventually people realized things like one race's bombers do such and such better, but then you had to forum dive and it was bad. So, this squad bonus must be made apparent somehow, and how people are getting it.
Secondly, I advise you check out some games that already do/tried this. Empires is a HL2 mod that uses a more engrained XP system, and squad bonuses. It kinda works, and yet so many times it doesn't actually get people to stay in squads because there are so many times you need to splinter and hurry to the nearest place that needs help, but only needs say 1 or 2 out of your squad of 5. Granted, being able to respawn to your squad would help as well, and Empires doesn't have as good of a dynamic squad system as NS2, but you should tinker with what they have and see what worked and what doesn't (i.e. some of the squad bonuses are crap).
Lastly, I'm concerned about gameplay implications and edge cases that get confusing. For example, what about squads that join/split, transfer players? What about one squad getting enough points that they are unstoppable (easily fixed by having a cap on the bonus)? Bonuses are lost on death, but what about being last man standing then rejoining another squad? I'm assuming you're binding the XP to a per-player, so if you do it right you're part of a squad, get lots of XP, and as long as your survive and run to another squad you keep those bonuses once you join up? I'm nitpicking the parts you haven't fleshed out yet, but some stuff to consider.
Basic squad bonuses I think are OK. Even more fun would be comm activated bonuses he could apply to a squad for a short period (although beware micro spam). However, you might be getting a little too complicated with this idea, and it really would need transparency.
Well, it was merely a suggestion. I guess it wouldn't hurt showing how much XP you have, what rank you are and how much more XP is required to reach the next rank.
<!--quoteo(post=1836525:date=Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, I advise you check out some games that already do/tried this. Empires is a HL2 mod that uses a more engrained XP system, and squad bonuses. It kinda works, and yet so many times it doesn't actually get people to stay in squads because there are so many times you need to splinter and hurry to the nearest place that needs help, but only needs say 1 or 2 out of your squad of 5. Granted, being able to respawn to your squad would help as well, and Empires doesn't have as good of a dynamic squad system as NS2, but you should tinker with what they have and see what worked and what doesn't (i.e. some of the squad bonuses are crap).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have the time to play many games. Splintering is an issue, but I wouldn't say it kills the premise. Working alone is sometimes the only option. You wouldn't be hindered by doing so, you simply just wouldn't be helped either. If there is even 1 other player nearby though, your bonuses are re-established (that sort of answers the next question).
<!--quoteo(post=1836525:date=Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, I'm concerned about gameplay implications and edge cases that get confusing. For example, what about squads that join/split, transfer players? What about one squad getting enough points that they are unstoppable (easily fixed by having a cap on the bonus)? Bonuses are lost on death, but what about being last man standing then rejoining another squad? I'm assuming you're binding the XP to a per-player, so if you do it right you're part of a squad, get lots of XP, and as long as your survive and run to another squad you keep those bonuses once you join up? I'm nitpicking the parts you haven't fleshed out yet, but some stuff to consider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be made apparent that each player gains XP independantly, but each kill made by a squad member distributes XP between all the players. The actual algorithm to split XP is up for debate, small squads get bigger XP rewards (XP kitty that is split between members?), XP is distributed as a static variable regardless of squad size (10xp for everyone whether 2 people or 10), XP is distributed based on the damage you dealt to an enemy in combat (variable XP for everyone ranging from 0 to 10), there are many choices for this mechanic. But I decided to leave the details up to the professionals. XP and rank carry over if you switch to a different squad so long as you stay alive.
Caps MUST be implemented, again, to prevent all-powerful XP stacking. For example, say each rank gives you 2.5% damage resistance, 6 ranks would give a maximum of 15% (7 ranks if you include the 0th rank which is default).
All those points I actually did have planned out, but apparently haven't properly expressed them in my original post.
<!--quoteo(post=1836525:date=Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 9 2011, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basic squad bonuses I think are OK. Even more fun would be comm activated bonuses he could apply to a squad for a short period (although beware micro spam). However, you might be getting a little too complicated with this idea, and it really would need transparency.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I had the concern with complexity. I doesn't *feel* right, but regardless I felt this might be a worthwhile idea to surface. I'm not so sure about commander squad bonuses. I should note I didn't think of the bonuses as a "power-up" sort of idea. More a stats tilt. So squads wouldn't gain additional abilities such as evasive manoeuvres or double jump or anything like that. They'd do what they normally do, but better.
<!--quoteo(post=1836529:date=Mar 8 2011, 06:21 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Mar 8 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I had the concern with complexity. I doesn't *feel* right, but regardless I felt this might be a worthwhile idea to surface. I'm not so sure about commander squad bonuses. I should note I didn't think of the bonuses as a "power-up" sort of idea. More a stats tilt. So squads wouldn't gain additional abilities such as evasive manoeuvres or double jump or anything like that. They'd do what they normally do, but better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely. I was thinking tangentially about similar boosts to what you were talking about, be it a slight dmg, armor, or speed boost, but really that's for another topic.
I dunno how well this would fit as a core mechanic in vanilla NS2, but I would definitely be up to try it out in at least a mod. Also, "arcadey" is already making a huge comeback, see Bulletstorm's kill-for-points system, and CoD's points for random cool stuff you do (mm killstreaking).
I dunno how well this would fit as a core mechanic in vanilla NS2, but I would definitely be up to try it out in at least a mod. Also, "arcadey" is already making a huge comeback, see Bulletstorm's kill-for-points system, and CoD's points for random cool stuff you do (mm killstreaking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I am aware of those systems. It's partially inspired by both of those except I don't like the bonuses CoD gives you and I don't really like Bulletstorm as a game (too many pre-set events or disguised quick-time events). I do like the arcade feel though.
<!--quoteo(post=1836554:date=Mar 9 2011, 08:23 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 9 2011, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> because this is well-thought out and still more concise than most. I'm still not sold on the idea, though. This encourages players to stay in groups, but I can see players placing more importance on the "If you die, you lose your XP" aspect and making individual survival their number one priority over sticking around to work cooperatively. This would not be so if the squad benefits made group survival more advantageous without stressing (or possibly downplaying) the importance of individual player survival (Left4Dead's revive system, or Halo Co-Op respawning).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes individual survival is important, you want to stay alive to keep your bonus. But you will also want to keep other people in your squad alive so you keep earning bonuses. The "if you die you lose your XP" part is really a matter of balance more than anything. I don't see how wanting to stay alive will stop people working cooperatively, you need a sqaud to gain bonuses so running away from the squad makes you more vulnerable. A better tactic would be to retreat as a squad.
<!--quoteo(post=1836569:date=Mar 9 2011, 01:02 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 9 2011, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first, I was like, no way, that will be all sorts of unbalanced... but as I read through the post, and further down the thread, I quite like this idea - especially considering that Charlie's already considering bonuses for being in a squad. If he wasn't already considering it, then it would tilt me more towards <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->-1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> than <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. But yeah, <!--coloro:#99FF99--><span style="color:#99FF99"><!--/coloro-->+0.7<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> or so, from me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you have been convinced. Yes, I wanted to expand on UWE's idea to make it more interesting, I felt the mechanic that was explained was too static.
If you need a motivation "carrot" to play for the team or just simply want to do your own thing, this aint the right game.
It definitely won't keep people from working cooperatively in most situations, but if you're in a scenario where it's made obvious that some of your squad aren't going to make it out, this system would reward the opportunist player that runs away from danger and protects his own life at all costs more than the altruistic player that holds his ground (and in this case gets left to die). This system places more importance on the continued survival of the individual, whereas other systems such as in L4Ds or Halo Co-Op encourages you to stay with and protect your team at nearly all costs, since as long as one squad member remains alive, you have a chance to be revived, and the punishment of your death to be less severe.
Assuming something similar to one of the aforementioned systems was put in to place where the life of the individual was not made top priority, I can see your (Zuriki) idea being a very sweet bonus for good performance and fully support it.
Well, maybe a different kind of opportunism.
At least that's my theory.
Well, maybe a different kind of opportunism.
At least that's my theory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I'm definitely not the idealistic type, in fact I'd be one of the guys to head for the hills. But I believe there are ways to discourage this behavior in the context of this suggestion.
If you need a motivation "carrot" to play for the team or just simply want to do your own thing, this aint the right game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but Charlie has already suggested a static buff of some kind if you're in a squad. If these squad buffs are already being considered, then this idea is a good way to discuss a more balanced, more interesting approach.
@KuBaN:
Still, it's a bit like trying to keep your weapon, most people probably don't have a problem with this. Really, it's about deciding whether or not you sticking around is going to let you survive along with another, or others. If things look bleak, head for the hills, you shouldn't really be penalised for it...
Perhaps you could have exp decrease with time away from a squad, just as you have exp increase with time with a squad.