Why is Alien Commander even considered?
Cloesd
Join Date: 2011-02-23 Member: 83077Members
Join Date: 2011-02-23 Member: 83077Members
I don't understand why they'd put this in? What advantages does it really convey to the game? NS1 was fairly well balanced with just a Marine commander so balance is not the issue.
Having the Kharaa use a Hive-mind esque method of communication really added to the game, and made Kharaa strategies completely different to the marines. The gorges can think for themseleves where to place buildings, and where to move.
Having the Kharaa use a Hive-mind esque method of communication really added to the game, and made Kharaa strategies completely different to the marines. The gorges can think for themseleves where to place buildings, and where to move.
Comments
As much as i hated (and still do to a certain degree) the idea of Alien Commanders...i can see why they added them (amongst other new things...MACs for instance), and seeing the game as it is now with Alien Commanders in place...It isnt as bad as i initially thought.
Overall....Alien Commanders are a GOOD addition to NS.
To answer your question in general: NS2 is not a graphics patch to NS1
I agree with the OP. Alien commanders = unoriginal. Took away from the uniqueness of NS.
latest build, gorges now are rooted into the floor while they build. Making the class even worse, can you imagine what will happen if gorge building inside the hive when marines come? why limit the classes movement so much when he doesn't have any sort of defensive abilities at all to begin with. No self heal, slow moving and now rooted into the floor while building, what's next?
when the the latest build, gorges now are rooted into the floor while they build. Making the class even worse, can you imagine what will happen if gorge building inside the hive when marines come? why limit the classes movement so much when he doesn't have any sort of defensive abilities at all to begin with. No self heal, slow moving and now rooted into the floor while building, what's next?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Save your breath man. People have complained about this a while ago only to get shot down by UWE and their brown-nosers. It's here to stay.
I can't wait for the NS1 mod of NS2 though. :)
The advantage that the Alien commander brings to NS2 is providing that top level viewpoint
and dispatching of buildings.
In NS1 the maps were a bit tighter and being a gorge meant bringing up the MAP (pencil and paper before a map was implemented)
realizing your second hive was light on defenses and hobbling your butt over there to build something.
This does not play efficiently against a GOOD (not even excellent) marine commander that would dispatch multiple buildings at multiple sites
within seconds of each other. It was no contest.
In games where the Aliens did have coordinated attacks it was usually due to one person yelling at the entire team where to go based on a map that everyone could visualize inside their head. <------Hello huge learning curve.
In NS2 not only can the Alien Commander deploy infestation, whips, and crags.
He/She can also detonate a drifter to produce a flashbang (blinding) effect on the marines.
As the game evolves the Alien Commander will be able to trigger more game modifying spells (Umbra, Bombard)
If you have played an RTS that supports features like these (spells) you understand the benefit to the Aliens.
For the naysayers that declare this took away all the differences between playing marine and alien...you are wrong.
As a marine, my best playing occurs when we run in groups, when we fight in lighted areas, when we take positions that guarantee every line of fire is covered.
As an alien, my best playing occurs when I attack alone or swarms (6+ crawling all over each other), when I fight in the dark, the less structural, the better.
The goals, gameplay, and environment are all different.
Having the Kharaa use a Hive-mind esque method of communication really added to the game, and made Kharaa strategies completely different to the marines. The gorges can think for themseleves where to place buildings, and where to move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Too many chiefs and not enough indians." Simply put the coordination benefit of having a commander is too great for only one side to have. Please note this does _not_ equate to both sides having to play the exact same way; the goal is to ensure _coordinated_ action independent of individual play-style.
For the humans, the traditional "rules" may apply, as you have more control over your teammates and there are bigger risks associated with base management (spamming badly placed sentries from a second command-post with shared money, is bad for business)
For the aliens, you have to consider the mechanics of the race. They are more geared towards not needing a man strictly commanding all the time, and also multiple commanders at once.
As an alien, you have constant sight of your friends, and in some cases also your enemy - this means alien players easily stick together in groups and have the necessary overview to decide when and if to engage (if you are a lone skulk, and 3 red dots are closing in you wont dont attack, fx.). When marines attack tactically, you will be warned by the ingame alert, and a guy in or near a hive can check it out from the overhead display and alert the others.
Base-management-wise, the Kharaa are also better for multi-commanding. As long as you have a general idea of what you are doing, you can't do much wrong - you cant really mess up the placement of a (cheap) crag or whip too bad (you can even reposition a whip) - building a stupid RT is hard since you gotta have infestation and thus control the area first - also DI, everyone can place it and there's plenty of energy for it.
I personally feel that I contribute more to the team jumping out to attack half the time if Im commanding, and I also feel comfortable jumping in a hive and doing stuff when there already is a commander at main base.
I do see your point and agree with the above in essence.
The thing is though, I wouldn't consider it "good" commanding to micro-manage to the point where players are "pawns". Players are (hopefully) intelligent agents that should be allowed creative freedom in how they go about their playing... to a degree.
When you talk of superior strategy and tactics I agree; but in general strategy refers to the "big picture" and tactics the "small/individual combat" picture. I would argue that it is more efficient for one commander to be responsible for the strategy and the other players the tactics although in practise there is always going to be some blurring of the two.
Now you brought up a good point about increased awareness through alerts etc. for the alien team where maybe it's not as needed for one person to yell "there's a fire at hive number one" but I still feel that its useful for that one player to have the responsibility of coordinating where to attack next if nothing else.
The ultimate goal is to have "better" games on average. If there's no commander, maybe you'll have that one game where there's a bit more freedom and yet the team pulls together and creates some crazy win... but I'd wager more often than not things will become a mess and you'll end up with a sub-standard game.
Anyway my only problem with the whole thing is the shared team res. This has nothing to do with a specific team however. Besides now forcing the gorge into the odd role of a shootable somewhat feature lacking version of itself, I've actually grown to like the alien comm a lot. Should it have been added to begin with? Eh I'm not sure but besides some of the comm mechanics which plague both sides, I see it behave differently enough to keep certain asymmetry (although a lot has been lost no matter how you argue it).
Plus there will certainly be a classic mod which will have old style of gameplay so its not like we won't be able to play alien-commless. Having both options is nice.
Clearly the forums need to have some sort of post limit before you can open a thread.
Personally I enjoyed the pub games when they went for 2 or even 3 hours, great fun to see the battle see saw back and forth.
The game was either over in the first 10 minutes due to an alien rush or you had a more drawn out battle as the marines tech'd up.
I dont see how a commander on the alien side would alter that...the spawn rush was a valid tactic for aliens to try and win the game early...before marines had shotties, ha, hmg gl jp etc....
Yes! Now aliens get to play the hive mind! I know the usual alien crowd from NS1 probably aren't used to being "commanded", but they will see the advantages of having an overseer (when the features are complete). I was also wondering, do Marines *really* have those magical nanite dispensers all over the map? -_-
<!--quoteo(post=1834678:date=Feb 23 2011, 06:05 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Feb 23 2011, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway my only problem with the whole thing is the shared team res. This has nothing to do with a specific team however. Besides now forcing the gorge into the odd role of a shootable somewhat feature lacking version of itself, I've actually grown to like the alien comm a lot. Should it have been added to begin with? Eh I'm not sure but besides some of the comm mechanics which plague both sides, I see it behave differently enough to keep certain asymmetry (although a lot has been lost no matter how you argue it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Through the commander/hive mind, the aliens have gained the the ability to place buildings quicker. On the other hand, I do not like the current amount of emphasis placed on the alien commander, that only they can use structure abilities such as Umbera and Fury, as well as being the sole manager of team res (as you mentioned).
Unlike the marine commander, the alien commander is currently lacking in the ability to provide mobile combat support to the troops (eg Medpack). I hope that will change as the features flesh out.
Clearly the forums need to have some sort of post limit before you can open a thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's not. The first-post was legible and contemplative, so why you decided it wasn't worthy of posting is beyond me, regardless of whether or not I agree with what's been said.
Through the commander/hive mind, the aliens have gained the the ability to place buildings quicker. On the other hand, I do not like the current amount of emphasis placed on the alien commander, that only they can use structure abilities such as Umbera and Fury, as well as being the sole manager of team res (as you mentioned).
Unlike the marine commander, the alien commander is currently lacking in the ability to provide mobile combat support to the troops (eg Medpack). I hope that will change as the features flesh out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see why the commander for aliens needs to be replicated based on the marines, I see this as just sending the game down the CS path but with different models (ie aliens and marines instead of terrorist/counter terrorists).
It was the vastly different playing styles that made ns1 enjoyable to play.
Currently the alien comm has been designed it seems on the marine comm format. in so far as responsible for building everything, deciding upgrade paths etc.
Surely with upgrades the comm should be putting forward the idea to the collective who make the decision (ie votecast type format).
An alien comm should not be a full time position as this reduces the player numbers for aliens...as they are melee based this sets them at particular disadvantage.
Whilst I am not a fan of the comm idea I think that if UWE want to make the alien comm work they have to make it different to the marines and not simply by renaming objects that they place but making their actual invovlement in the game different.
Let the alien comm build hives, suggest or control ability advancements, maybe set waypoints (only updated when aliens on DI) and maybe a little something with the DI....but those should only consume say 20-25% of their time. This enables them to then take a more active part in the game and assisting aliens in llaancing the melee v ranged issue.
The building of res towers, chambers etc should be the role of the gorge (either that or you might as well remove the gorge)...but unlike in ns1 the alien comm is involved in either chosing what chambers are available or generating a vote for aliens should they chose to partake.
Let the alien comm build hives, suggest or control ability advancements, maybe set waypoints (only updated when aliens on DI) and maybe a little something with the DI....but those should only consume say 20-25% of their time. This enables them to then take a more active part in the game and assisting aliens in llaancing the melee v ranged issue.
The building of res towers, chambers etc should be the role of the gorge (either that or you might as well remove the gorge)...but unlike in ns1 the alien comm is involved in either chosing what chambers are available or generating a vote for aliens should they chose to partake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^ It's a good point. There is almost too much for the alien comm to do right now for it to be of much use up front, and the gorge doesn't really have enough.
The NS storyline made a point of there being no hive mind - something like "the aliens were fiercely individual, even fighting over kills" - but rather some sort of hive "sight", as the aliens were able to see marines that other aliens could see.
...
O_O
Hive hearing?
That +hook thing for the gorge which allowed them to climb up to high places with their web.
Hive hearing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL, I just got a ominous image in mah mind on that. Khaara hearing upgrade, all Khaara now have big ears...
Allowing them to <i>bunny</i>hop again harhar
Clearly the forums need to have some sort of post limit before you can open a thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post count doesn't mean qualitypost, take yourself as an example.
The idea of an alien commander is perfectly legitimate for balance. It didn't make sense to me when playing NS1 that one team had it and one team never.
The resource model from NS1 didn't scale for large and small groups of players. It only worked well for 6v6. This has to do with the asymmetric nature of the aliens not having a commander and having a Gorge instead. I've thought long and hard about this. The best way I thought this could be fixed was to add an alien commander.
The trick is making sure the two commanders still play totally differently (which is one reason why you aren't microing and healing your teammates, not giving waypoints, etc). In my mind, that's being totally true to "NS". The alien commander role is still evolving though so who knows what else he'll have to distinguish him.
But I fear that alien commanding will be really boring. Marine commanding in NS1 is not really the dream job. Finally it depends on what abilities and structures are available for the alien commander.
The idea of an alien commander is perfectly legitimate for balance. It didn't make sense to me when playing NS1 that one team had it and one team never.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it doesnt make sense that one race doesnt play exactly like the other? really?
to me it seems gimmicky like multiple marine commanders. in a perfect world yes it COULD work but any other time its just a big mess. in fact the more I play ns2 the more I see shortsighted changes that dont really add to the game, but breaks balance and makes the game even more unplayable.
-commander depends on the gorge to drop chambers
-gorge depends on the commander to drop hives (commander upgrades hives also)
-gorge depends on commander to upgrade his chambers (enhance chambers abilities and give out alien upgrades)
-the gorge and commander can both drop RTs, but the commander upgrades the RTs to increase production
-commander can drop whips only
bile bomb needs to return to the gorge as an ability, here how it can work:
bile bomb can be used to destroy marine builds, and spread infestation. Since bile bomb creates big splash its good way to spread infestation, and since infestation harms marine buildings, once dropped on them it would start to grow and rapidly cause damage. This makes two abilities into one, the current ugly circle to drop infestation as gorge now needs to go, it isn't good and it isn't "alien enough" ability.