Marine's walk slow backwards
wazups2x
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72902Members
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72902Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why?</div>Why do the Marines walk slow while moving backwards? It really makes it a pain to back up and shoot while trying to get away from the fast aliens. In my opinion there really is no need for this and is more annoying than anything. I really hope this gets changed.
Anyone else agree?
Anyone else agree?
Comments
NS2 != NS1
That is true, but the devs have said a few times that they're trying to get movment similar to that of NS1 and even TFC. Not exactly but close to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1827311:date=Jan 26 2011, 12:30 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 26 2011, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 != NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right!
But!
Running backwards at a "walking pace" while firing your weapon is balanced and allows aliens to catch up to the marines. Marines do have sprint and can easily get away from a skulk no problem, even Fades.
Plus it's just epic in the sense of being "cinematic" blasting away aliens as you move slowly for distant protection.
That's why.
I dont think youre that much slower, its should just be the accuracy that should be affected.
You're right!
But!
Running backwards at a "walking pace" while firing your weapon is balanced and allows aliens to catch up to the marines. Marines do have sprint and can easily get away from a skulk no problem, even Fades.
Plus it's just epic in the sense of being "cinematic" blasting away aliens as you move slowly for distant protection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the logic, but I never found skulks/fades having a problem 'catching up' with the marines in pre-16X builds. In most cases, they just ambushed marines from around corners or from vents. I guess I assumed allowing marines to back up and fire at full speed was a feature rather than a bug, because it forced the aliens to ambush rather than charge marines to kill them. It made combat more asymmetrical and fun. Now I see marines doing awkward strafing, psuedo-bunny hopping maneuvers to fight skulks who can now blindly rush marines in a frontal assault and win. Its a step backwards imo.
NS1 combat had a lot of tactical elements to it. Marines generally held the advantage when multiple marines could lay down long fields of fire, covering each other and negating the need to retreat. Aliens generally held the advantage in cramped spaces or against solo marines wandering around on their own. There was more than just pure twitch at play. Players on both sides had weaknesses they had to compensate for.
What weakness does a marine who can travel and fire in any direction indiscriminately have? At 5 feet and 50 feet he's equally powerful. Without a gameplay mechanic that weakens a marine who is faced with melee combat, aliens will always remain at a disadvantage when attempting any form of offense.
If you don't like the backwards slow run, try suggesting an alternative balancing mechanic. An example I listed in the other thread on this topic is to lower all marine movement speed down to a jog, then give them an ability to holster their weapons, which would increase their movement speed to a run. Fallout 3 & Fallout New Vegas do exactly this, and to an extent so does Counter-Strike: Players pulling out their knife to run faster is pretty much the same mechanic.
NS1 combat had a lot of tactical elements to it. Marines generally held the advantage when multiple marines could lay down long fields of fire, covering each other and negating the need to retreat. Aliens generally held the advantage in cramped spaces or against solo marines wandering around on their own. There was more than just pure twitch at play. Players on both sides had weaknesses they had to compensate for.
What weakness does a marine who can travel and fire in any direction indiscriminately have? At 5 feet and 50 feet he's equally powerful. Without a gameplay mechanic that weakens a marine who is faced with melee combat, aliens will always remain at a disadvantage when attempting any form of offense.
If you don't like the backwards slow run, try suggesting an alternative balancing mechanic. An example I listed in the other thread on this topic is to lower all marine movement speed down to a jog, then give them an ability to holster their weapons, which would increase their movement speed to a run. Fallout 3 & Fallout New Vegas do exactly this, and to an extent so does Counter-Strike: Players pulling out their knife to run faster is pretty much the same mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I need to clarify a bit.
Skulk and Lerk = Ambush tactics
Fade and Onos = Assault tactics
At least thats how I interpret what UWE has/is doing with the classes. I just oppose gimping marine movement so that skulks can also use assault tactics. I regularly use sneaky tactics as a skulk, rushing in the enemy base when they arn't there to get a few swipes on the ip, macs, or power node and then retreating when they attack. I don't see anything wrong with keeping that game mechanic.
Not all aliens are melee-only (see the op of lerks in B162). Also, the main advantage for alien melee-combat is map geometry, not marine back up speed. If NS2 had open area maps, it wouldn't matter if the marines couldn't move backwards at all because they'd still kill you (as a skulk) way before you would reach them. I see map design as the primary balancing factor in skulks vs. marine combat, not marine movement.
Also, you seem to be arguing more abstract than specific. Did you have problems in pre-B16X builds with attacking marines when they could back up at full speed? I sure didn't. That's another reason that I opposed the change, because there didn't appear to be a need for it.
Skulk and Lerk = Ambush tactics
Fade and Onos = Assault tactics
At least thats how I interpret what UWE has/is doing with the classes. I just oppose gimping marine movement so that skulks can also use assault tactics. I regularly use sneaky tactics as a skulk, rushing in the enemy base when they arn't there to get a few swipes on the ip, macs, or power node and then retreating when they attack. I don't see anything wrong with keeping that game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I have no problem with those roles being the <i>strengths</i> of those classes, but I am uneasy with the idea of those classes being completely restricted to those roles. I've been in too many NS1 assaults involving skulks & lerks, and too many ambushes involving fades & onii to believe the scope of the classes should be narrowed to that degree.
<!--quoteo(post=1827735:date=Jan 27 2011, 08:48 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 27 2011, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not all aliens are melee-only (see the op of lerks in B162). Also, the main advantage for alien melee-combat is map geometry, not marine back up speed. If NS2 had open area maps, it wouldn't matter if the marines couldn't move backwards at all because they'd still kill you (as a skulk) way before you would reach them. I see map design as the primary balancing factor in skulks vs. marine combat, not marine movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is a fair point, I agree, though I'm perhaps placing more emphasis on the word "primary" than you are (and thus taking away the implication that it's not the only balancing factor).
<!--quoteo(post=1827735:date=Jan 27 2011, 08:48 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 27 2011, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, you seem to be arguing more abstract than specific. Did you have problems in pre-B16X builds with attacking marines when they could back up at full speed? I sure didn't. That's another reason that I opposed the change, because there didn't appear to be a need for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've had very few opportunities to seriously sit down and try out any of the more recent builds, so I've yet to fully absorb what NS2 gameplay feels like. To explain my frame of reference, I began playing NS1 from launch, and played extensively for the many years that followed. I'm coming from the point of view of a player who has only ever had slow-back-pedalling marines and is trying to imagine what the game would be like without it. The scenarios I provided in prior post were created by recalling various situations I've been in, and how they might have played out different if the marines had been less mobility-impaired. I am also recalling the chronic balance issues earlier versions NS1 suffered when marines chose to hunker down in one room: The issue of aliens being unable to break seiges and other turtle situations, especially when they did not have access to more advanced forms has come up multiple times before. I fear a return to those days.
I do admit I'm not up to speed with the nuances of where we are at today, but I feel that my contribution to this debate on the basis of my past experiences could still prove insightful when attempting to reach a compromise that ultimately improves the quality game for everyone.
Alright smarty pants, try out-backwards-running a marine while firing this gun: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkgfrS9FanU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkgfrS9FanU</a>
PS - Check out the difference between the white guy at the very end of the video and everyone else who tries it: Even with a gimmick gun like this that is intended to produce insane levels of recoil, the recoil given off can be made to look almost non-existent when the gun is fired by someone who knows how to position themselves properly and is expecting it. Protip: You can't run backwards without leaning backwards, and if you're leaning backwards, that gun will knock you flat on your butt. :P
Try running backwards into some stairs, or in a room littered with crates. Try doing it into a wall. Running into a desk or table at a fast walk hurts like hell - now try doing it at full speed backwards where you can't see it coming (and getting swept in the legs from behind = falling that much easier; forget just stumbling) Try doing it in a room full of industrial-sized power cables and stepping on just ONE funny - you'll either trip or mess up your ankle.
In short, GG skulk food~
Try running backwards into some stairs, or in a room littered with crates. Try doing it into a wall. Running into a desk or table at a fast walk hurts like hell - now try doing it at full speed backwards where you can't see it coming (and getting swept in the legs from behind = falling that much easier; forget just stumbling) Try doing it in a room full of industrial-sized power cables and stepping on just ONE funny - you'll either trip or mess up your ankle.
In short, GG skulk food~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you suggesting running into a wall forward should hurt you in this game? Otherwise I don't see the point of this argument for why backwards speed is so slow because, by the same logic, so should forward.
Running backwards full speed into a wall will make you hit head first. That coupled by the fact that you can't see it coming (and brace for impact) will leave a person confused, dazed, and in a lot of pain. Even if you're in a helmet, it's like someone clotheslined you from behind and snapped your head forward.
That moment of confusion would be all it takes for something to overpower a person. *IF* an enemy wasn't right there it would be possible to recover in a few seconds and carry on. If the marine is crazily backpedaling trying to shoot a skulk right in front of him, then he will die if he's dazed for even a moment.
I think you're confusing one thing here, though. I'm not saying the game should be uber realistic and a marine should get stunned for running into a wall. It's unavoidable in an FPS that you'll eventually accidentally snag on something. However, I think we can assume that a trained marine would know not to run into walls. A trained marine would also understand how dangerous it is to run backwards in such a cramped environment. THAT is why running backwards should be slowed.
No, running backwards is slowed for balance reasons. This is a bit much of a nerf though it could have been nerfed less and still be effective at what it's for. (preventing marines from backpedaling fast so they don't have too much time to kill approaching skulks) I see your point I just think if we analyzed other aspects of the game in such terms of realism we might not even have aliens to begin with...
I know, I know :P
I'm for balance and gameplay over realism any day. However, if realism supports the balance (and in my opinion this is one of those situations) then there's no reason we can't discuss it as such. Just another way to look at it.
I do admit I'm not up to speed with the nuances of where we are at today, but I feel that my contribution to this debate on the basis of my past experiences could still prove insightful when attempting to reach a compromise that ultimately improves the quality game for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Your NS1 experience is valuable, but I see many NS1 vets on this forum propose or support ideas for NS2 primarily because they were done in NS1. I think thats fine (I play NS2 because I loved NS1), but NS2 is not NS1. The Starcraft series is a good analogy. SC2 is clearly related to SC1, they contain many of the same units, have three races, have pretty close to the same underlying gameplay. However, SC2 includes enough additional features that you can't expect all of the same rules and balance apply to both. In the same way, UWE has already included significant changes (alien commander, MACs/Drifters, dynamic infestation, flamethrowers, etc.) that invalidate some of the balancing features of NS1. In my opinion, that means they need to reevaluate nearly every balancing aspect of the game, rather than simply port NS1 balancing features directly to NS2.
For the record, I don't oppose slowing marine backwards speed as long as there is a clear problem that would be solved by doing so (e.g. if skulks are having problems getting close enough to marines without dying).
Basically you could do your sneakiest skulk surprise and the marine would run away backwards firing at you.
He would win unless he totally sucked.
I remember this was how people were playing NS2 initially.
Instead of marines banding together they would just go one on one with skulks running backwards.
It is nerfed and will remain nerfed unless something is added to the skulk to hang onto the marine after the first bite.
The nerf LEVEL is debatable but we really do not want them tweaking when features and optimization need to be done.
basically if a skulk closes the distance on you.
you can hop, but I find hopping and aiming correctly do not always go together.
you can strafe trying to keep a bead on him.
Keep in mind when the skulk CHOMPS its like his eyes are closed ... this is HIS weakness.
So CHOMP strafe ...where is he...blam.
Play the skulk one day simply taking note of all his weaknesses.
you can (if your health is low) turn tail and hold shift...this is a tactical move...especially if your commander is smart enough to build multiple armories.
but the best thing you can do versus skulks is
a) Stay in groups...if he's biting you the other guy can get a good shot.
b) USE your ranged weapon at a range.
c) Make those first shots count...guns alert them of your presence...don't spray willie nillie on those first shots.
Basically you could do your sneakiest skulk surprise and the marine would run away backwards firing at you.
He would win unless he totally sucked.
I remember this was how people were playing NS2 initially.
Instead of marines banding together they would just go one on one with skulks running backwards.
It is nerfed and will remain nerfed unless something is added to the skulk to hang onto the marine after the first bite.
The nerf LEVEL is debatable but we really do not want them tweaking when features and optimization need to be done.
basically if a skulk closes the distance on you.
you can hop, but I find hopping and aiming correctly do not always go together.
you can strafe trying to keep a bead on him.
Keep in mind when the skulk CHOMPS its like his eyes are closed ... this is HIS weakness.
So CHOMP strafe ...where is he...blam.
Play the skulk one day simply taking note of all his weaknesses.
you can (if your health is low) turn tail and hold shift...this is a tactical move...especially if your commander is smart enough to build multiple armories.
but the best thing you can do versus skulks is
a) Stay in groups...if he's biting you the other guy can get a good shot.
b) USE your ranged weapon at a range.
c) Make those first shots count...guns alert them of your presence...don't spray willie nillie on those first shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are some very good analysis of the marine vs skulk balance, as well as tips for novice marines, kingmob.
Personally, I'd like to see the Marine backward movement penalty slightly reduced (but 99.99% perfect balance is a luxury at this stage in the development), and a movement penalty added to getting hit by melee attacks.
For instance, a Marine could backpedal at 70% normal speed. If a Marine is bitten by a Skulk, or slashed by a Fade, he would be slowed by 30% (multiplicative with existing penalties) for half a second (much like in CS, or L4D). But if the Marine was backpedaling, he would be moving at 49% of normal speed (0.7 x 0.7).
These changes will highlight the game designs, that Aliens are rewarded for their cunning, and marines are punished for fleeing and going rambo.
PS. New upgrades can even be created based on such designs to make the game more interesting! eg. Marines can research and purchase special light armour upgrades individually to mitigate slowing effects (and exo-armor would have the effect by default).
I don't think anyone should be punished for fleeing.
Fleeing is an actual tactic for either side.
Flee heal up ...maybe regroup.
But yeah the nerf could be investigated a bit more.
I'm just saying not now...and very slowly.
I think the balance is pretty tight on the beginning units right now.
I feel pretty solid spawning as both early game.
Features and Performance keep it coming...the fun, the variety is already there.
Try running backwards into some stairs, or in a room littered with crates. Try doing it into a wall. Running into a desk or table at a fast walk hurts like hell - now try doing it at full speed backwards where you can't see it coming (and getting swept in the legs from behind = falling that much easier; forget just stumbling) Try doing it in a room full of industrial-sized power cables and stepping on just ONE funny - you'll either trip or mess up your ankle.
In short, GG skulk food~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right about it being hard to run backwards in such rooms, but we are talking about walking backwards. If I were to walk (in any direction) in same speed as marines currently have backwards, I bet I would stumble and fall due to it being so slow I lean forward in the anticipation of the next step. It is like walking underwater (where I dont fall simply cause it takes to long time to sucesfully lean forward like that with one foot on the seafloor)!
Currently the marines sprint (shift) is like a slow jog (think it would be better in jog speed gameplay wise), the jog (normal) is like slow walk (still, its ok speed), and the slow walk (backwards, which cant be used as sneak because holding forwards stops me for some reason) is like frozen enemys in magicka, especially if used midair or combine with strafe.
Point being, only with slow jog would going backwards be hard, but the normal walk speed wouldnt.
Also, stairs are hard to walk backwards in indeed (especially down), but people would be confused by walking backwards and "stopping" (current backwards speed) as soon as they reach stairs.