[POLL]Flamethrower
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">just a Poll, like it or not?</div>You know how it is now, thats the beta, but its sure the flamethrower will be in the Game and fixed later.
What do you think about it?
Do you like it?
I guess the most people who like it are on the marine team.
Maybe you know the old times with ns1, where it was like "oh noes, they got heavy armor, but we still got a chance"
Now its like "oh noooo, they got flamethrower...game is lost, press F4* (*you know...)
And this will not changed because a flamethrower is still a ...flamethrower and it will burn your ass, whatever you do.
So in my mind its TOTALY NOT good, look they will get Exosuit, minigun and maybe (its in the code) dual miniguns, isn't THAT enough?
If you take a look in the beta code, a marine will get 200 Armor Points with exosuit (compared to default with 30).
Sure the Flamethrower will need to clear dynamic infestation, but a welder would do the job too...
Oh and what did you do if you are on fire?
You can do NOTHING if you are on fire...thats the point, only run to a hive if you find one, or gorge if he is fast enough...just with big luck.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>VOTING, please did it, its not that hard, vote yes or no for like or dislike.
This will give a good feedback i guess.
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#880000--><span style="color:#880000"><!--/coloro--><b>
/Vote NO (dislike)
i don't like it and its not matching to the Natural Selection i like.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I am sure there will be a lot of marines instead of aliens, i see a lot of people leaving because they saw the FT.
<i><b>Vote YES if you like it...
</b></i>
<u><b>
update 16 Jan 11:38 PM:</b></u>
okay it looks clear, people do like it.
Like i say, don't care the "issues" just think if its fixed and stuff,
it will still burn you and you can not do anything if you are on fire to stop the fire. <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/tsa/folder_post_icons/icon9.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
p.s. maybe if the aliens have some fire-protect-skin upgrade...would change a lot.
What do you think about it?
Do you like it?
I guess the most people who like it are on the marine team.
Maybe you know the old times with ns1, where it was like "oh noes, they got heavy armor, but we still got a chance"
Now its like "oh noooo, they got flamethrower...game is lost, press F4* (*you know...)
And this will not changed because a flamethrower is still a ...flamethrower and it will burn your ass, whatever you do.
So in my mind its TOTALY NOT good, look they will get Exosuit, minigun and maybe (its in the code) dual miniguns, isn't THAT enough?
If you take a look in the beta code, a marine will get 200 Armor Points with exosuit (compared to default with 30).
Sure the Flamethrower will need to clear dynamic infestation, but a welder would do the job too...
Oh and what did you do if you are on fire?
You can do NOTHING if you are on fire...thats the point, only run to a hive if you find one, or gorge if he is fast enough...just with big luck.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>VOTING, please did it, its not that hard, vote yes or no for like or dislike.
This will give a good feedback i guess.
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#880000--><span style="color:#880000"><!--/coloro--><b>
/Vote NO (dislike)
i don't like it and its not matching to the Natural Selection i like.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I am sure there will be a lot of marines instead of aliens, i see a lot of people leaving because they saw the FT.
<i><b>Vote YES if you like it...
</b></i>
<u><b>
update 16 Jan 11:38 PM:</b></u>
okay it looks clear, people do like it.
Like i say, don't care the "issues" just think if its fixed and stuff,
it will still burn you and you can not do anything if you are on fire to stop the fire. <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/tsa/folder_post_icons/icon9.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
p.s. maybe if the aliens have some fire-protect-skin upgrade...would change a lot.
Comments
I have no problem with the presence of flamethrowers per-se.
For those who despise it, is it the damage? the blinding effect while being actively flamed, or the blinding effect while being on fire (but not being flamed by a marine anymore).
(I will concede that Lerk needs some defense against it).
After its fixed i mean, its still burn aliens and a gorge for example can not do anything, he is to slow to run away and can't heal himself.
Or a skulk.
That can take form in a number of different ways.
# Damage
# R.O.F
# Move Speed
# Aim Speed
# Weapon Change Speed
# Draw Speed
# Self Damage
# Splash Damage
# Friendly Fire
# Clip Size
# Range
# Cone of Fire
# Effect on Structures
# Effect on Lifeforms
# Effect on World
# Effects on Sight
# Effects on Hearing
Plus, a thousand other things.
Personally I think it should be a very high powered weapon with high range.
But it should lose out from:
# Low aim speed - When firing
# Self hurt - When fired near by
# Reduced hearing - When firing
# Effect sight - Subtle refraction shader?
# Slow draw
This way it would be vulnerable to lifeforms that got behind or moved quickly, whilst being a very effective moving forward and for structure clearing. It would also support the idea of early weapons being useful late game, for protecting players using it.
I have noticed - when commanding - every time the flame thrower is researched I have to shout:
"One shotgun guy to every Flamethrower guy." Flamethrowers are currently better as cover weapons, than actually effectively taking down structures. But players - especially those new to the game - expect it to be more powerful because that is what you visualise and expect from the weapon.
But it totally depends on how they imagine the balance to be. I have been quite critical about sentries recently, but once you find all the good placements spots - they are hard beat unless be it by a well hidden Lerk.
So, yes I do like it. No, not at the moment.
That means:
* main purpose is cleaning rooms from Dynamic Infestation
* DoT damage should be decreased against lifeforms and increased against structures
* limited and special ammo (cannot be resupplied by an ammopack drop)
Or if you want it to be powerful, the flamethrower guy needs some kind of vulnerability like low armor, extra damage from skulks or maybe possible aoe explosion when he dies (friendly fire). That would be a nice teamplay element (i.e you have to protect and weld him carefully). I think i mentioned this idea before in another thread, anyways.
thats just my 2 cents
- The blinding effect when the weapon is pointed at you.
- The manner it goes right through walls and objects , makes a mockery of static defences and using cover during the fight.
- The afterburn is too much , a simple lick of flame ... barely tagging a Alien will result in about 50HP damage taken.
There is also no compelling reason not to use it when it becomes available, its a weapon that can cause a lot of damage and chaos with relative ease and takes no skill to use effectively. There is no drawbacks to using it.
Ideally the weapon should be powerfull against Aliens and Structures, but have a vunerability that can be exploited by Aliens and requires teammates to cover that vunerable spot.
Things like :
Cannot move while firing ?
Backblast from the weapon can damage the user if fired for too long ?
Damages the user if the flames hit something too close ?
Slow turning speed while firing ?
Slower speed overall when armed with the weapon ( even if it is holstered ) ?
I like the idea of a Flamer, just not as it is now.
I really like flamethrowers. But i don´t like them anymore if they are overpowerd as it is in NS2 right now. :D
I like to play skulk but you have no chance to kill a marine as a skulk because the don´t see anything. I know that UWE have changed the blinding effect but this effect right now is also to "heavy".
How to fix that problem.
- Blinding effect should be decreased
And
1.)
- Alien should get an update which increase the resistance of flames.
Or
2.)
- Skulks can extinguish the flames if they leap (running leap)
- Gorge can heal themselve
- Lerk should fly to extinguish the flames
- Fades can blink to extinguish the flames
- Onos can´t extinguish flames. i think the flamethrower is useless against onos.
Or
3.)
- Flamethrower do high damage if anyone is nearby and less damage to players that are far away. (Like the pyro in Team Fortress 2)
- The afterburn gets decreased
Or
4.)
- Players who plays with flamethrower moves 5-25% slower and can´t change the direction so fast.
I like this idea. The only problem is it's hard to do. Maybe if it catches structures alight however just damages life forms, causing them to take damage rather than catching a light?
-no longer goes through walls
-is impeded by solid objects
-does not blind players
I think the flamethrower will be much more fair, if still a game-changing upgrade.
The problem at the moment is the aliens' inability to fight back when they can't see, that they cannot use terrain and structures to evade the flames, and that marines can kill players and destroy structures through walls.
Whether or not being on fire should continue to outdamage hive healing is a balance issue to be handled once we see how the flamethrower fares when it works properly.
Had a 1.5 hour game on rockdown yesterday, and I hated how trivial the gameplay became when marines with only 2 extractors had flamers 100% of the time for 30+ minutes and the only viable counter was choosing fade and waiting 20seconds to evolve every time.
Blinking into walls, flaming through walls, macs reparing from within walls, crags healing through walls and cealings, etc dont help either
edit: I would like to see its damage being decreased though, and maybe decrease range too instead of cone. Then it would still own skulks and lerks, but not deny lerks as completely and the shotgun would be the clearly better choice for dealing with fades
I would rather see the flamethrower get a role-balancing than a straight out nerf and removal of its traits. The concept of a infestation clearing broad-coned weapon with blinding properties is good and fit in perfect synergy with the super-damaging closeup shotgun and aoe damage grenade launcher. At the moment it reduces the other weapons to building killers and denies the lesser aliens due to high damage and range.
There's plenty of ways to change it. I still think the best way would be to nerf the current fire stream against aliens a lot, but keep it good against structures, then move it to secondary fire and introduce a 'burst' fire mode as primary. It would fire out a concussive blast of bright blue-white fire which would work a bit like a shotgun, however it would also have big recoil and a cooldown between uses. That way the flamethrower becomes like a shorter range and slow firing shotgun, but it would do damage to everything in front of it so it's better against groups. And it gets an anti-structure/anti-di alternate fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1824219:date=Jan 14 2011, 11:43 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 14 2011, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see four issues with flamethrower, most of which have been discussed:
1) The blinding effect - if it weren't for this, most aliens would have a much easier time
2) Going through walls - easily destroys base defenses
3) Random burn duration (where you're much more likely to die before it goes out) - the actual damage is not that high, 10 dps - but for some reason it can't be outhealed (probably because alien heal is a % of maxhp, rather than a hard value).
4) The relatively large "cone of fire" and relatively large ammunition (10 seconds of continuous fire, at 50 dps), which basically means you don't have to aim or use any skill, like you would with all of the other marine weapons
I don't think 4 has been touched upon much by anyone, but it is easily one of the biggest issues. Using the flamethrower doesn't really require much skill, you just hold down the mouse button and aim in the general vicinity of the aliens and you'll set them on fire. Every other weapon does require some skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 is the biggest issue. Fix this, and take your time with the rest. The flamethrower is fine otherwise. The damage (especially of the most recent build) isn't really that much at all.
This is how I would order the issues in terms of importance: 4>1>3>2. I don't see any other issues with the flamethrower.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112368&view=findpost&p=1824479" target="_blank">More</a> - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112368&view=findpost&p=1824518" target="_blank">details</a> - on how broken and how large the actual cone of fire is (it's ~73 degrees :| ).
So, for right now. I DON'T like the flamethrower. Once it's fixed, I will thoroughly enjoy it.
are playing the 161?
I've played 30 games
and only 2 games won Marines
be achieved in 12 flamethrower and do not reach for anything
maybe the flamethrower are little strong, but the 161 can not you realize
at least with the Marines that I found on the public server
Something like this: (The extra loop shouldn't cause too much overhead as it will only end up running against an average of 2-3 ents)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Flamethrower:FirePrimary(player, bullets, range, penetration)
if Server then
local barrelPoint = self:GetBarrelPoint(player)
local ents = GetGamerules():GetEntities("LiveScriptActor", -1, barrelPoint, range)
local fireDirection = player:GetViewAngles():GetCoords().zAxis
local TentHitPlayers = {}
for index, ent in ipairs(ents) do
if ent ~= player then
local toEnemy = GetNormalizedVector(ent:GetModelOrigin() - barrelPoint)
local dotProduct = fireDirection:DotProduct(toEnemy)
// Look for enemies in cone in front of us
if dotProduct > .8 then
TentHitPlayers.insert(ent)
end
end
end
for index, entsToBurn in ipairs(TentHitPlayers) do
ent:SetOnFire(player, self)
// Do damage to them and catch them on fire
ent:TakeDamage(Flamethrower.kDamage / #TentHitPlayers, player, self, ent:GetModelOrigin(), toEnemy)
if GetGamerules():CanEntityDoDamageTo(player, ent) then
// Impact should not be played for the player that is on fire (if it is a player).
local entIsPlayer = ConditionalValue(ent:isa("Player"), ent, nil)
// Play on fire cinematic
Shared.CreateEffect(entIsPlayer, Flamethrower.kImpactCinematic, ent, Coords.GetIdentity())
end
end
end //if S
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
One of the structures with the ability to give a 'fog' for a certain radius to stop flamethrowers working in that vicinity. It means you require teamplay and other players in order to get a flamethrower in to that area.
We can say the flamethrower is definitely going to be in the game, though.
--Cory
It's interesting to hear ideas from everyone and how they would implement it though.
flamethrower counters everything aliens have currently, in fact in endgame fight right now marines need nothing else to win but flamethrowers. They don't even need to hold second base, they can lose everything on the map and still win right now.
Upgrades are not tied to buildings, so losing second command center doesn't remove flamethrowers, which it should. Marines have no reason to hold positions anywhere on the map but main base, once they got what they needed from second command center, it useless to them. So problem here. So even if aliens take control over these areas, it means nothing.
flamethrowers currently are tier 2 for marines, and those who keep saying aliens just need onos, well an onos is tier 3 for aliens. Does this mean aliens need tier 3 to beat tier 2 marines technology? while marine technology still has HMGs/heavy armor and jetpacks in the later tiers - so if aliens can even counter current state tier 2, things only get worse.
flamethrower bugs/problems:
1.goes through walls
2.has huge distance range
3.insane damage over time ticks - nothing can out heal this damage (hive can't crag can't and gorge weak heal can't heal at all)
4.it still blinds you
flamethrowers are ruining ns2 currently, if you not wish to believe this because you love the game well you haven't played enough aliens to understand this. flamethrowers are no skill no need to try or aim weapon. I've said before this weapon MUST be removed and replaced with HMG, aliens cannot get decent game going, if they don't hurry and stop that second command center from upgrading, once it does its all down hill from there.
Fade should be able to counter flamethrowers but because of WEAK blink ability, he will never be able to do anything.
blink problems:
1.cannot catch moving target
2.constantly must select an area to blink to WHILE fighting
3.each blink you're blinded for split of second
4.its extremely slow compared to ns1 fade blink - people who like current fade either aren't good fades to begin with or do not understand the importance of problem 1.
5.fades who cannot catch moving targets end up running after the marines on foot, pushing melee - lol
6. cannot blink into vents
these are such game breaking abilities, which only cause aliens to be much weaker than they suppose to be.
they need to bring back ns1 fade blink - give allow current fade to have TWO forms of blinks, keep the current one and ns1 blink; they can rename the second blink to something else but if fade cannot catch moving targets he's useless. I'm sorry if some of you might not agree but people who honestly good fades will see my point, new people are still amazed by the lovely special effects current blink offers.
fix following things:
- fire through walls
- fps drop
- more plasma to spend (60)
then I would love it! :)
We can say the flamethrower is definitely going to be in the game, though.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We know, wasn't another "the flamethrower is glitchy or something" Thread ^^
Anyway the people don't understand what i write or want to know...did i not say it clear?
Its NOT talking about the glitches or bugs about the flamethrower, ist just a Poll but nobody could do just like:
/Vote NO (dislike)
/Vote YES
maybe it was to hard to understand...
I just want to ask the community what they think about the flamethrower...and i am very wondering,
but i bet the most "i like it people" are marine player :P
Even as marine the flamer doesn't do very much damage. I'm way better with a rifle, or a shotgun. Honestly I'd prefer the shotgun to the flamer any day.
Using that same logic then we can safely assume those that want the Flamer removed are only Alien players and disregard thier opinion as well.
Would make this entire thread... pointless.
Cory has answered your concerns, by assuring you that the devs are aware the Flamer is not fine, and that it will fixed after due consideration.