Reply to tweet about skulks ripping marines apart.
NeoSniper
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
<div class="IPBDescription">because you can't have a decent discussion on the twitter topic</div>> Trying to figure out why skulks are ripping marines apart. All the numbers are the same, but the engine is different? DM thoughts to me!
My first guess is the lag and hit detection issues. Second could be framerate issues, harder to track skulks.
Maybe the numbers are different. Could you elaborate? The LMG (NS1) had a 50 bullet magazine and fired a lot faster (and I think also more accurate). The new assault rifle has a 30 bullet magazine and fires slower (right).
My first guess is the lag and hit detection issues. Second could be framerate issues, harder to track skulks.
Maybe the numbers are different. Could you elaborate? The LMG (NS1) had a 50 bullet magazine and fired a lot faster (and I think also more accurate). The new assault rifle has a 30 bullet magazine and fires slower (right).
Comments
It just feels like your shooting a mag loaded with 50% blanks.
... dont get me started on fighting lerks.
Either the hit reg is bad or the DSP of the LMG is way underpowered, I say its the hit reg because often even a shotgun blast is ineffective ... does the collision box lag the model ? Then why doesnt the hit reg on Skulks dashing straight at you ? Is the collision box off centre to the model maybe ? Or is it a case of what you see on your screen isnt what the server sees datawise ?
The biggest issues are performance related, such as poor mouse and input responsiveness/low fps/low server tick rate
Other reasons, as pointed out, could be:
- the armor bug which causes armor 0 marines to die in 2 skulk bites instead of 3
- lack of skulk footstep sounds
- the skulk jump+leap bug
- confusing skulk animations
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the lag isn't the reason skulks are dominating marines, its merely amplifying the underlying imbalance to absurd proportions. Its not like only the marine side is experiencing the lag, yet skulks find a way to munch marines to death with greater frequency. The fundamental problems, as I see them, are
<ol type='1'><li>Current test maps are small, favoring close combat over long</li><li>Skulks have a smaller hit profile than the marines</li><li>Skulks have a de facto unlimited and uninterrupted weapon (i.e. they never run out of ammo nor have to reload like the marines)</li><li>Skulks have a de facto autoheal system (natural healing + crag + gorge healing spray) without an effective marine counterpart (armory has no area healing effect and the low res rate means that comms rarely have the resources to spend dropping health packs)</li><li>Movement game mechanics that require constant, nonintuitive movement to hit a moving target (i.e. the backwards movement reduction)</li><li>Skulks can use the 3D environment while marines can only use the 2D environment (e.g. marine movement is heavily chokepointed and predictable)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2:
1. 3.8 seconds to fire 50 rounds.
2. 3.2 seconds to reload.
NS1 (not watching the weapon animation, but instead watching when the ammo count changes):
1. 3.3 seconds to fire 50 rounds.
2. 3.3 seconds to reload.
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Also i agree with people who have pointed out that the engine, the lag, and the overall art direction of the game (towards rooms that are not 100% well lit all the time, i.e. ns1) has made the game harder for the marines.
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Also THIS:
<!--quoteo(post=1822290:date=Jan 7 2011, 04:10 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jan 7 2011, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The movement is terrible compared NS1.
Should probably do a video to demonstrate, since most "veterans" have no clue how it was in NS1 and NS2 fanatics refuse admit how bad it looks in NS2.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9w2AafcfZg" target="_blank">Marine Retreat</a>
Things you should notice besides terrible video quality are less predictability, game speed and the fact the one of them is continuous other repeated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its like everyskulk has silence at the moment
probably the most powerful ns1 upgrade early game
apart from obvious reg/hit/lag issues
Also, this: <!--quoteo(post=1822787:date=Jan 9 2011, 08:45 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 9 2011, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm i found a small discrepancy between ns1 and ns2. Guess the "numbers" aren't always the same huh :P
NS2:
1. 3.8 seconds to fire 50 rounds.
NS1 (not watching the weapon animation, but instead watching when the ammo count changes):
1. 3.3 seconds to fire 50 rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
doesn't match the game code (0.0555 second delay per shot - 2.775 seconds for 50 shots). Or each shot itself has an 'animation time' unrelated to the delay. Judging from your measurement, each shot must have an extra 0.02 second 'animation'. If you want to get this to match up with NS (3.3 seconds), then make it a 0.01 second 'animation'.
Also, this:
doesn't match the game code (0.0555 second delay per shot - 2.775 seconds for 50 shots). Or each shot itself has an 'animation time' unrelated to the delay. Judging from your measurement, each shot must have an extra 0.02 second 'animation'. If you want to get this to match up with NS (3.3 seconds), then make it a 0.01 second 'animation'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder also if its computer specific how long it takes to fire the weapon, and if the actual firing/registering of hits is unrelated to the animation. I was doing this in a public server, so i wonder if i'll get different times in different servers... will try a lan game and see what happens.
Edit:
Ok the times changed in a lan (still over the expected time of 2.775 seconds, Harimau):
NS2 (lan):
1. 3.5 seconds to fire 50 rounds. (little faster then my previous time on a public server of 3.8 seconds)
2. 3.1 seconds to reload. (essentially what i got in my first recording, 3.2, on a public server, so no surprise there... its just one animation playing)
NS2 (laggiest server i could find)
1. <b>4.3 - 5.1</b> seconds to fire 50 rounds... <b>mad fluctuations!!!</b>)
2. 3.2 seconds to reload (just like before, so this value isn't affected by lag so much)
Conclusion: The rate of fire (and therefore hit/fire detection) is not consistent, and is heavily influenced by the servers capabilities/lag. Therefore the dev's attempts to enforce a fixed rate of fire, to balance the game, is not possible currently. It's safe to assume this affects every weapon/offensive-capability in the game.
My recommendation is learn to use the pistol + shotgun, shoot the rifle in short bursts, and don't hesitate in getting the flamethrower (because the lag in the game increases towards the end due to structure lag, which will make the rifle more and more useless). Com's should now consider using the least amount of turrets possible, and if you're a gorge you may want to drop 20 hydra asap. ^^
What did you expect to happen when you tried glide jumping in the new engine?
This is a good recommendation. Based on analysing the game system and values: Default fire-mode Pistol can drop a vanilla skulk in 4 hits (ostensibly in 0.4 seconds). While alternate fire-mode Pistol can drop a skulk in 3 hits (ostensibly in 0.6 seconds). With perfect aim, that's 2 or 3 skulks per magazine. You require 9 hits to kill a skulk currently, but since you 'miss' so many of the shots, rifle's still very useless.
It's very sad to hear about the lag affecting the fire-rate so drastically.
So no, telling people to use the pistol isn't going to cut it.
And honestly I really don't like the way pistol is right now, and how so many games seem to present pistols as better than the basic weapon. Sure, the game isn't realistic, but you can pack in way more killing tech in this scifi world into an assault rifle.
Harimau: pistol alt-fire kills in 3 shots instead of 4? So it's not only more accurate, it deals more damage? Awesome.
Exactly. As it is currently, your best bet is to get good at the pistol and use it, to kill skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1822892:date=Jan 9 2011, 10:43 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jan 9 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Harimau: pistol alt-fire kills in 3 shots instead of 4? So it's not only more accurate, it deals more damage? Awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Does 30 damage instead of 20. Weird, but sure, why not. Also the accuracy bonus isn't *that* great, it's a 1 degree -> 0 degree cone of fire. Makes a much bigger difference over a long distance though. 1.7% of the distance is the radial size of the cone.
So it also might be "rockdown related".
^ this
..
even watching the widely shown beta trailer demonstrates from a top down view at one point the sketchy, jittery, jagged skulk animation. (while the two marines try to kill it in base)
i generally get 40+ fps and even on a low pinged server i still have trouble tracking them compared to NS1.
is it the animations which stutter, or is it the model in game that doesn't get updated frequently enough?? I'm not sure.
..
even watching the widely shown beta trailer demonstrates from a top down view at one point the sketchy, jittery, jagged skulk animation. (while the two marines try to kill it in base)
i generally get 40+ fps and even on a low pinged server i still have trouble tracking them compared to NS1.
is it the animations which stutter, or is it the model in game that doesn't get updated frequently enough?? I'm not sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea i have been trying to point out to people exactly that, on my system i got 40-60 fps average on rockdown and i usually get a pretty good ping, its just that the skulk playermodel moves so sporadically that it is almost next to impossible to track. The reason is because the animations when the skulk strafes shifts the whole body's orientation, meaning in a fire fight when a skulk player would naturally be moving back and forth to dodge gunfire would cause this issue to be very apparent. It wasn't this way in NS1, in NS1 when a skulk strafed it just showed the model moving its legs sideways whereas now the entire model shifts around making the target very fidgety to try and get your crosshairs on. Although this issues isn't the sole reason skulks are dominating since the issue is being heavily exacerbated by the lag and framerate issues on larger servers. Fortunately the devs have identified this issue and have claimed to already have fixed it for the next build (161) where the strafing animation is more like the NS1 counterpart, combined with taking 3 bites to kill a marine rather than just 2 i think we'll be seeing the marine/skulk killing ratio to pan out rather nicely in build 161 (hopefully)
During the time that the skulk is rotating and tracking is impossible, the player has usually started to zigzag back the other way, meaning when the model fixes itself, a skulk on my right side can literally teleport over to my left. It's insane trying to keep up with some of that.
observe at 56 seconds in:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM</a>
watch closely the skulks movement.. it "snaps" and is not fluid. which makes me think if it was an orientation issue then said orientation change would still be animated smoothly and properly, correct? i actually like seeing the upper half of the skulk move to one side or the other it looks natural, however there doesn't seem to be smooth blending / transitions of the animations? even the skulk 3 seconds prior to this scene which is running straight at the player without strafing "skips" or "hitches"...
idk. its just what I've noticed. hope it helps.
observe at 56 seconds in:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM</a>
watch closely the skulks movement.. it "snaps" and is not fluid. which makes me think if it was an orientation issue then said orientation change would still be animated smoothly and properly, correct? i actually like seeing the upper half of the skulk move to one side or the other it looks natural, however there doesn't seem to be smooth blending / transitions of the animations? even the skulk 3 seconds prior to this scene which is running straight at the player without strafing "skips" or "hitches"...
idk. its just what I've noticed. hope it helps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is actually a great instance of exactly what i am talking about, compare the marine movements and the skulk movements, now i know that the marine speed is somewhat slower but the way that the skulk's entire body sporadically shifts from side to side: while the marines don't necessarily stutter quite as much. The "snap" your referring to is the sporadic shifts that the skulk player enters every single time the skulk player hits A or D, there is no blending/smoothing/ or transitioning animations as far as i know after viewing the skulk animations in the spark model viewer. What you see as that "snapping" is actually the transition between the forward/idle/backward/whatever animation that the skulk was doing before to the strafing animation that shows the skulk playermodel moving left or right that also has the entire body shifted towards whatever side the skulk is strafing. It can't be server latency because the way the skulk "snaps" is not continual, it spans out about every second or 1/2 second and is inconsistent, which would mean the server would have to have a tick rate of 1 or 1/2 tick rate. To show you that it isn't soley client lag or server tick rate i made a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rIF9atwSHY" target="_blank">video demonstrating my point</a>. This video i recorded was in a local server, so server tick issue is voided, and although fraps does significantly lowers my framerate, i still get an average 30 fps, ordinarily i would got 60+ fps. You can see that all i am doing is strafing back and forth, and what is the result, my playermodel is moving all over the place, which is why it is so hard for the marines to keep their crosshairs on it, because the actual hit detection isn't all that bad, when you aim at the model you usually hit it, however when the actual player model is as unpredictible and sporadic as it is currently, the actual accuracy of hit detection is in vain. And all the client framerate issues and low server tick rates on large servers are only exacerbating this.
Hopefully yes, Max stated he had addressed this a while ago and that it was going into 161
good, then we should know shortly how much of the skulk vs human balance is caused by that animation glitch