A thread to end many threads
JaMrulezass
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71296Members, WC 2013 - Silver
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71296Members, WC 2013 - Silver
Hi guys, I feel kinda bored and I realize many threads are whining about seemingly the same things so I've got a buncha posts from Cory which kinda clarify a lot of things:
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on sales and issues regarding small maps/similar design</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Know it's not policy, but can you release sale figures so far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sales have been pretty steady, with spikes around big releases (alpha, beta, recent gameplay trailer) and sales (the indie bundle, xmas sale). For a game with no marketing budget, not a lot of big presence in the mainstream public as of yet, and only fairly recently playable, and far from finished, we can't really expect a lot better at this point. We really haven't seen much evidence that many more people would be buying the game at this point if it was 25$ as opposed to 35$. The biggest reasons people choose not to buy the game at this point are: its not finished yet, its not fully optimized yet, its not on the steam store yet, or they simply aren't aware of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
...but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people on the forums have heard me say this a hundred times already, but Rockdown is just a TEST map, was never meant for full NS2 gameplay, and is far far smaller then the other official maps in the works. It will be removed at some point during the beta stage, as the gameplay really doesn't work as intended. Tram is the only official map, is also one of the smallest, and is still being revised and improved.
As far as variety goes, there will be plenty of variety between the official maps. For release we are focusing on just a Refinery art set theme (later there will be other very different themes such as Biodome), so there's bound to be a lot of visual similarities between the maps, but that said, we are really striving to have very different themes and plenty of unique props and landmarks for each of those maps. There is a mining map, that makes heavy use of the rock walls and cave look, has unique specific props like giant drills, and rock crushing machines. There is a refining map, which will have lots of flowing lava, a lot of red/orange lighting, and lots of unique props. Then there is a Docking map, which is also very large, has some outdoor areas, and lots of worker living/ leisure type areas, like a bar, cafeteria, locker room, ball court. All of these have a lot of unique props and textures that have not been publically released yet, that were created specifically for these maps to help make them stand out from one another. So NS2 maps should not be judged by Rockdown, which was the first map ever created, had no unique props made for it, and no real design effort to make each area stand out from others, as it was built quickly with limited assets to just get something we could run around on for testing purposes.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>
Cory, more on the financial situation and what great, unique features justify the $35
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Guys, UW isn't going anywhere. NS2 is our lives right now and we are going to get it done one way or another.
Regarding the 35$ price point, the fairness of that price shouldn't be judged based off of the current version of the game. We have to price the game in a way that takes into account all the work that is going into the final release version, and just putting out an early public version of the game shouldn't change that. We understand that in its current form the game will not seem to be worth that amount to many people, beyond our diehard fanbase, and that's why we haven't started selling the game on the Steam store yet, among other things.
In addition to all the performance and gameplay balance issues there is still a ton of new stuff left to go into the game. Off the top of my head:
--Onos (and while he may not have abilities like devour anymore, he will have other new ones, such as breaking down doors)
--Exosuit, with several new weapon types and view models.
--Robotics Factory building
--The mobile ARC siege cannon
--2 new alien structures for the alien commander - The Shift and the Shade
--DI
--at least 3 more fullsized maps in addition to Tram -- Rockdown will probably be removed for the release version of the game
--jetpacks
--portable power nodes
--more alien abilities
We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.
When deciding the price point we looked at games like Left 4 Dead, and, while of course from a polished standpoint our game isn't there yet, I would say from a content standpoint NS2 holds up. And we are releasing all of our development tools, such as the level editor and cinematic editor, and will continue to add features and improve those, as well. Just because we are considered Indie in our funding model we can't just slap a low price onto our game, when many other indie games have a lot less content, are more heavily stylized with simplified art and/or gameplay, thus much easier to create.
Of course in the future we will have free to play weekends, more sales, and who knows, maybe the price will need to drop if no one is buying the game. But for the moment we are focused on making the game as good as we can to make it fully worth that 35$ cost.
--Cory
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<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>
Cory on the gorge's reduced role (in the beta thus far)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I don't have the full info regarding why these abilities were removed. I'm pretty sure Charlie still wants roost for the Lerk. I seem to remember him being surprised that it was actually working at one point, as I don't think he'd done much on the code side with it yet. But I don't know of any specific reason why he would not want to have lerk roost in there eventually.
Damage shield for the gorge was problematic, and some of the reasons I've heard mentioned by Charlie probably led to its removal. It is a confusing ability to convey to the player what exactly they are doing, when they press the button. It is not a very fun ability, since you have to stay in place while using it. He's got a belly slide which already is useful for getting out of bad situations quickly, so there's not many reasons why he'd stop still in the middle of the room and use this ability. Plus, the gorge has quite a few abilities already compared to most of the other aliens, (there's even ones planned that aren't in yet, like the ability to spread DI) and if anything, if we add more abilities they would probably focus more on his building side of gameplay.
That's all the info I know off the top of my head regarding those 2 alien abilities.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on the learning curve of NS2 commanding and acessibility</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Its always been important for us to make NS2 much more understandable and accessible to new players then NS1 was, without sacrificing a robust set of features that leads to depth of gameplay. Understandably its a pretty tall order. Many of the biggest issues causing confusion to new players we've known about for quite some time, and we have either not had the time to address yet, are in the process of dealing with, or we are still mulling over a variety of options of how best to deal with it.
Areas like the commander UI is already getting an overhaul, minimaps are being reworked and added, the names of the resources are being changed to be clearer and better implemented so that the player can see and understand them more easily, tooltips will likely get more attention once more of the features are final, and maps will continue to be improved where necessary with lighting, signs, etc. to help get around more easily. We've got some other ideas we've been discussing lately that we are going to try out, as well.
It is still always helpful to hear about experiences that new players are having, as some things that may seem perfectly clear and obvious to us, can actually be quite the opposite.
--Cory
If by pre-planning the issues in the design stage you mean removing commander mode, nixing power nodes, taking out upgrades, making small maps consisting of a few rooms and 1 or 2 connecting hallways, and perhaps maybe just take out the alien side, cause that;s kind of different and harder to understand, then yeah...we could have planned better.
I'm pretty sure most of the stuff I've mentioned is not changing the current game model. The commander UI overhaul is partly coming about due to the fact that we are ditching Flash and redoing it all in Lua. And moving some buttons around, changing some icons and names for things are all part of the typical design process that most games go through. The maps already have been designed to be easier to understand and to find your way around, with landmark themed rooms with their own distinct props, tram tunnels that connect one side of the map to another, etc. The maps are still a WIP, so lighting, layout etc. is always going to keep getting polished in order to make it work better for gameplay, and to highlight important routes. There's a lot of stuff that has been planned to make things clearer that we just have not had a chance to implement yet, and plenty of things that have been simplified from NS1 (just read all the threads that have been created complaining about how much we are dumbing down NS2 for the casual market)
Yes, both NS1 and NS2 are complex games, and they will probably never be as accessible as many of the mainstream FPS games out there. But that is a deliberate choice we've made, and the kind of game we want to play and feel our fans want to play. The OP of this thread put forth some constructive feedback, and there are plenty of ways to address the learning curve of NS2 without a complete overhaul of the current game model.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on the flamethrower</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
No, the (flamethrower) effect is using particles, not cheap spritework. Yes the flamethrower effect is still a work in progress and it will be improved. One of the biggest things left to do with it is to get to the flame to lag behind as you swing it around.
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->
<b>Cory on people who worry too much about the frame rate</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just hope so, because i would be first of all angry on me, wasting my money on a game that i can't play on my computer, and then i would be sad, because i couldn't play it :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guys, it is not a waste of money if you can't run the game well yet on your computer. We are constantly optimizing the game, little by little, and are going to continue optimizing the heck out of it in as many ways that we can, in order to get it playable on high and low end systems. At the same time, we do have a game to make, so all the optimizing that is going to happen isn't going to all get done at once...it will be occurring all the way until release, and maybe even after.
This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>
Cory on minimaps and commanding</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The commander minimap is being reworked as we speak. Its going to get visually simplified, and be closer to the Ns1 minimap, and overall hopefully become much more useful and informative.
Also some discussion going on about bringing the full screen minimap back as well, though that would probably come later.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on sales and issues regarding small maps/similar design</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Know it's not policy, but can you release sale figures so far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sales have been pretty steady, with spikes around big releases (alpha, beta, recent gameplay trailer) and sales (the indie bundle, xmas sale). For a game with no marketing budget, not a lot of big presence in the mainstream public as of yet, and only fairly recently playable, and far from finished, we can't really expect a lot better at this point. We really haven't seen much evidence that many more people would be buying the game at this point if it was 25$ as opposed to 35$. The biggest reasons people choose not to buy the game at this point are: its not finished yet, its not fully optimized yet, its not on the steam store yet, or they simply aren't aware of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
...but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people on the forums have heard me say this a hundred times already, but Rockdown is just a TEST map, was never meant for full NS2 gameplay, and is far far smaller then the other official maps in the works. It will be removed at some point during the beta stage, as the gameplay really doesn't work as intended. Tram is the only official map, is also one of the smallest, and is still being revised and improved.
As far as variety goes, there will be plenty of variety between the official maps. For release we are focusing on just a Refinery art set theme (later there will be other very different themes such as Biodome), so there's bound to be a lot of visual similarities between the maps, but that said, we are really striving to have very different themes and plenty of unique props and landmarks for each of those maps. There is a mining map, that makes heavy use of the rock walls and cave look, has unique specific props like giant drills, and rock crushing machines. There is a refining map, which will have lots of flowing lava, a lot of red/orange lighting, and lots of unique props. Then there is a Docking map, which is also very large, has some outdoor areas, and lots of worker living/ leisure type areas, like a bar, cafeteria, locker room, ball court. All of these have a lot of unique props and textures that have not been publically released yet, that were created specifically for these maps to help make them stand out from one another. So NS2 maps should not be judged by Rockdown, which was the first map ever created, had no unique props made for it, and no real design effort to make each area stand out from others, as it was built quickly with limited assets to just get something we could run around on for testing purposes.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>
Cory, more on the financial situation and what great, unique features justify the $35
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Guys, UW isn't going anywhere. NS2 is our lives right now and we are going to get it done one way or another.
Regarding the 35$ price point, the fairness of that price shouldn't be judged based off of the current version of the game. We have to price the game in a way that takes into account all the work that is going into the final release version, and just putting out an early public version of the game shouldn't change that. We understand that in its current form the game will not seem to be worth that amount to many people, beyond our diehard fanbase, and that's why we haven't started selling the game on the Steam store yet, among other things.
In addition to all the performance and gameplay balance issues there is still a ton of new stuff left to go into the game. Off the top of my head:
--Onos (and while he may not have abilities like devour anymore, he will have other new ones, such as breaking down doors)
--Exosuit, with several new weapon types and view models.
--Robotics Factory building
--The mobile ARC siege cannon
--2 new alien structures for the alien commander - The Shift and the Shade
--DI
--at least 3 more fullsized maps in addition to Tram -- Rockdown will probably be removed for the release version of the game
--jetpacks
--portable power nodes
--more alien abilities
We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.
When deciding the price point we looked at games like Left 4 Dead, and, while of course from a polished standpoint our game isn't there yet, I would say from a content standpoint NS2 holds up. And we are releasing all of our development tools, such as the level editor and cinematic editor, and will continue to add features and improve those, as well. Just because we are considered Indie in our funding model we can't just slap a low price onto our game, when many other indie games have a lot less content, are more heavily stylized with simplified art and/or gameplay, thus much easier to create.
Of course in the future we will have free to play weekends, more sales, and who knows, maybe the price will need to drop if no one is buying the game. But for the moment we are focused on making the game as good as we can to make it fully worth that 35$ cost.
--Cory
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<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>
Cory on the gorge's reduced role (in the beta thus far)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I don't have the full info regarding why these abilities were removed. I'm pretty sure Charlie still wants roost for the Lerk. I seem to remember him being surprised that it was actually working at one point, as I don't think he'd done much on the code side with it yet. But I don't know of any specific reason why he would not want to have lerk roost in there eventually.
Damage shield for the gorge was problematic, and some of the reasons I've heard mentioned by Charlie probably led to its removal. It is a confusing ability to convey to the player what exactly they are doing, when they press the button. It is not a very fun ability, since you have to stay in place while using it. He's got a belly slide which already is useful for getting out of bad situations quickly, so there's not many reasons why he'd stop still in the middle of the room and use this ability. Plus, the gorge has quite a few abilities already compared to most of the other aliens, (there's even ones planned that aren't in yet, like the ability to spread DI) and if anything, if we add more abilities they would probably focus more on his building side of gameplay.
That's all the info I know off the top of my head regarding those 2 alien abilities.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on the learning curve of NS2 commanding and acessibility</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Its always been important for us to make NS2 much more understandable and accessible to new players then NS1 was, without sacrificing a robust set of features that leads to depth of gameplay. Understandably its a pretty tall order. Many of the biggest issues causing confusion to new players we've known about for quite some time, and we have either not had the time to address yet, are in the process of dealing with, or we are still mulling over a variety of options of how best to deal with it.
Areas like the commander UI is already getting an overhaul, minimaps are being reworked and added, the names of the resources are being changed to be clearer and better implemented so that the player can see and understand them more easily, tooltips will likely get more attention once more of the features are final, and maps will continue to be improved where necessary with lighting, signs, etc. to help get around more easily. We've got some other ideas we've been discussing lately that we are going to try out, as well.
It is still always helpful to hear about experiences that new players are having, as some things that may seem perfectly clear and obvious to us, can actually be quite the opposite.
--Cory
If by pre-planning the issues in the design stage you mean removing commander mode, nixing power nodes, taking out upgrades, making small maps consisting of a few rooms and 1 or 2 connecting hallways, and perhaps maybe just take out the alien side, cause that;s kind of different and harder to understand, then yeah...we could have planned better.
I'm pretty sure most of the stuff I've mentioned is not changing the current game model. The commander UI overhaul is partly coming about due to the fact that we are ditching Flash and redoing it all in Lua. And moving some buttons around, changing some icons and names for things are all part of the typical design process that most games go through. The maps already have been designed to be easier to understand and to find your way around, with landmark themed rooms with their own distinct props, tram tunnels that connect one side of the map to another, etc. The maps are still a WIP, so lighting, layout etc. is always going to keep getting polished in order to make it work better for gameplay, and to highlight important routes. There's a lot of stuff that has been planned to make things clearer that we just have not had a chance to implement yet, and plenty of things that have been simplified from NS1 (just read all the threads that have been created complaining about how much we are dumbing down NS2 for the casual market)
Yes, both NS1 and NS2 are complex games, and they will probably never be as accessible as many of the mainstream FPS games out there. But that is a deliberate choice we've made, and the kind of game we want to play and feel our fans want to play. The OP of this thread put forth some constructive feedback, and there are plenty of ways to address the learning curve of NS2 without a complete overhaul of the current game model.
--Cory
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cory on the flamethrower</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
No, the (flamethrower) effect is using particles, not cheap spritework. Yes the flamethrower effect is still a work in progress and it will be improved. One of the biggest things left to do with it is to get to the flame to lag behind as you swing it around.
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->
<b>Cory on people who worry too much about the frame rate</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just hope so, because i would be first of all angry on me, wasting my money on a game that i can't play on my computer, and then i would be sad, because i couldn't play it :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guys, it is not a waste of money if you can't run the game well yet on your computer. We are constantly optimizing the game, little by little, and are going to continue optimizing the heck out of it in as many ways that we can, in order to get it playable on high and low end systems. At the same time, we do have a game to make, so all the optimizing that is going to happen isn't going to all get done at once...it will be occurring all the way until release, and maybe even after.
This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.
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<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>
Cory on minimaps and commanding</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The commander minimap is being reworked as we speak. Its going to get visually simplified, and be closer to the Ns1 minimap, and overall hopefully become much more useful and informative.
Also some discussion going on about bringing the full screen minimap back as well, though that would probably come later.
--Cory
Comments
Well done sir!
--Cory
You're doing it wrong, breaking the foruml with that long dash line... Making it all into an unreadable wall of text :D
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=c841f0fda17a4aaac0e8caae3853ed89&search_in=posts&result_type=posts" target="_blank">Also more spy power on Cory!</a>
@Cory, boring? meh I dunno, but it is indeed informative stuffs!
The site needs a "Corys Corner" of what he says ;)
Wait a sec, is this a Cory love thread? :P
Wait a sec, is this a Cory love thread? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Church of Corytology?
or WEBBED
how you call it =)
if this gets updated by the thread opener it's gonna be perfect.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comments are always so introspective Cory. You are a rockstar on these forums, and you should be proud to talk about what you are working on.
I think most people would disagree with you, it is interesting. In fact, most people on here seem to post that they want to hear more from you guys.
Strange man. xD
<b>i wish there was a page i could goto to read just the dev posts... like the 'blue posts' section on MMO-champion.com that lists all the blizzard employee posts for wow on the wow forums.</b>
<b>CORY: Your posts are informative and important to me. I dont care if you dont crack jokes ;) Just that you take the time to post. Thanks!</b>
Here you go:
<a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showuser=11528" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showuser=11528</a>
courtesy of locallyunscene
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not boring, interesting.
But yeah, crack (funny) jokes, I want to laugh !