<!--quoteo(post=1820676:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main problem right now is every NS2 game is alike. No variety, there are no changing moments. You play one match, the next will be the same, the only thing that changes is either you win or loose. There aren't any breath-taking moments, or intense "Oh ######, lmao!" moments, or any "I'm badass" moments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right about this. But I believe that's primarily because less than half of the features are currently in the game yet, and it is currently extremely unbalanced, resulting in a severe lack of game variation. Every game is either: aliens harass and prevent flamethrowers until they get fades - then it's a slow, grindy victory for aliens; OR aliens fail to successfully prevent flamethrowers - slow, grindy victory for marines; OR aliens skulk-rush and end the game in the first few minutes. Throw in a bit of turret spam and hydra spam on either side to increase the slow grindiness. Games <b>rarely</b> differ from these three situations, and even when they do, it doesn't necessarily mean they're better.
<!--quoteo(post=1820676:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection was unique, and innovative when it first came out. Way back when, it's 2010(almost 2011), and it's innovations have been done time and time again and are no longer so "unique", as they were, so the game needs more selling points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think NS2 can even sell itself based on innovation or innovative features anymore (maybe DI?), but instead, it must sell itself on a whole, as a different game, and as a good game.
I also agree that $35 is quite simply too much to expect from the average consumer, even though as I say that, I paid $40 for my Special Edition in which I was not able to even load the Alpha once. I'm not going to get that money back, and frankly I don't want that money back, I just want UWE to make the good game that I paid for.
Yes, but you're not the average consumer. You're a fan of the game, of NS1.
I'm talking about the person who has never played NS1, heard or it, ect, and just sees NS2, and now he needs to see a reason why he'll pay 35$ for it. It's lacking right now.
TO be honest, I squirm everytime I see one of the new release trailers and it quotes, quotes from Game review sites from NS1. Those are NS1 quotes, they do not apply to NS2, it feels kinda like false advertisement. I know it's harmless, but to me, I just kinda go "...eh...", when I see it. Especially the "NS's innovations are too numerous to list", it feels like they're living off past glory, which is fine, usually, but that was waaaay in the past, so now they have to stop riding on the name Natural Selection. They need ot make people who don't know Natural Selection, or even HL1, or the modding scene.
And 35$ certainly isn't attractive.
Response to below:
Yeah I know man, I dun regret it either, went half an half with a friend, but that's the only reason I got it. I wasn't planning to buy this @ 35$, until it went on sale or something, or I just got it gifted randomly. 35$ put me off so much, I stopped checking the site.
I know, and I agree with you. I'm just saying that I'm not going to b*tch about the past (it's paid for), but I have high expectations for the future (it better be good).
you guys are acting like ns2 is never going to go on sale and will always be 35 bucks. AAA titles are 60ish bucks, and the christmas sale was basically a copy = 17 bucks if you got a friend to go in with you. is 17 bucks too much for an indie title? wtf do you guys want, for UWE to give away copies?
The pricing is fine. The only place that had a categorical problem with it when I surveyed forums was indiedb. You can see reactions here; <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112004" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112004</a>
You always need to backwork this stuff from your target consumer. In this case its bored TF2 players who are currently spending more than $35 on hat and weapon packs.
Again... everything is in place... they just need to make the game good.
<!--quoteo(post=1820689:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:38 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, we said the sale was a great price.
I'd pay 25$ tops, I'm saying 35$ is to much.
60$ AAA titles? Very few; StarCraft 2 & Black Ops are the only I can think of.
Indie games have always been 15-20$ for their content. People simply won't pay 50-60$ for a Indie game with no backround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 60$? I pay 20$ for "AAA" like Black Ops...totaly legal. And 35$ are not to much for NS2 because you don't have pay that much, the fans like me did it, to support the developer like max, charlie, cory and matt. I realy hope they don't disappoint us, because they did to me a bit with the "beta", its in my mind very undone, i never play a beta which is that undone like this and i play a lot. On xmas i gift some friends the Game, and they where excited to test it and next day i say like "and how was it?" friend:,,very lagy and stuff, not playable"..."yeah". Do you know who "Henry Kropf" or "Brian Cronin" is? There are copyrighted in some lua files, community user who help out? Anyway they should speed up! Is it just me or was 159 better then 160? 159 don't feel that laggy like 160, in 160 i always shoot and run against my own "hitbox/hitzone" you can test it with shooting spikes as lerk and switch to gas, you always shoot in front of you where you shoot the spikes. Or if you are marine walk from forward to backward(or left to right), you always get blocked by your own "hitbox or hitzone"
<!--quoteo(post=1820689:date=Jan 1 2011, 06:38 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, we said the sale was a great price.
I'd pay 25$ tops, I'm saying 35$ is to much.
60$ AAA titles? Very few; StarCraft 2 & Black Ops are the only I can think of.
Indie games have always been 15-20$ for their content. People simply won't pay 50-60$ for a Indie game with no backround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what wheee is saying is stop whining about the price. It's not going to change anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1820734:date=Jan 1 2011, 05:41 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 1 2011, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what wheee is saying is stop whining about the price. It's not going to change anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whining? There is no whining here. Simple fact. I already have the game, so it's not a question of me not shelling out money, I just see it as detrimental to trying to get the game popular.
<!--quoteo(post=1820697:date=Jan 1 2011, 08:32 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 1 2011, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No problem with that Shiriki but now convince all these hordes of players that never even heard of Natural Selection 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But those people aren't the target audience right now. Maybe I missed something, but people don't wander about randomly preordering games just because they only cost 20$. Who in his right mind would? Please keep in mind that NS2 is not finished. It doesn't have to attract new players yet. I would even say it shouldn't. If you preorder now you get access to a beta that is next to unplayable and I don't want anyone who never played NS1 to base his/her opinion of NS2 on that. At the moment UWE needs to finish this game and they need to get it right. If they pull another stunt with the release like they did when they called an early Alpha 'Beta' I see a dark future for NS2 und UWE in general. Because thats when NS2 should - and hopefully will be - judged. On release day. And thats also when we - the fanbase - need to go out and spread the word wether NS2 is worth the money they are charging at that point, thats when we can tackle the "hordes of players that never even heard of Natural Selection 1".
I haven't read through the thread properly but i agree the price is a bit much, beta should really be less and perhaps go up a bit on release, even then it shouldn't be anymore than $25, i only went for the holiday sale as you get two copies which works out to a price point i think is reasonable, i didn't really consider it a great sale but i wanted to support them so i got it.
Dont forget it was cheaper during pre orders, the time to nab on the cheap has come and gone ( except the holidays pack makes cheaper if you and a friend chipped in ).
If UWE drops the price any lower it wont make much of a profit , not enough to finance another game and definetly not enough to impress and potential investors.
... besides the comments left on GameTrailers about the official NS 2 trailer was quiet positive, and as such favourable with some marketing when the game is in a proper working conditon with enough <b>official</b> servers to cover the regions UWE is targeting.
* not the bold on official, UWE will have set up some official servers for regions other than the US, relying on community put up servers simply wont cut it in area other than the US. The EU has very limited server coverage at the moment.
<!--quoteo(post=1820739:date=Jan 1 2011, 06:03 PM:name=Shiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shiriki @ Jan 1 2011, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But those people aren't the target audience right now. Maybe I missed something, but people don't wander about randomly preordering games just because they only cost 20$. Who in his right mind would? Please keep in mind that NS2 is not finished. It doesn't have to attract new players yet. I would even say it shouldn't. If you preorder now you get access to a beta that is next to unplayable and I don't want anyone who never played NS1 to base his/her opinion of NS2 on that. At the moment UWE needs to finish this game and they need to get it right. If they pull another stunt with the release like they did when they called an early Alpha 'Beta' I see a dark future for NS2 und UWE in general. Because thats when NS2 should - and hopefully will be - judged. On release day. And thats also when we - the fanbase - need to go out and spread the word wether NS2 is worth the money they are charging at that point, thats when we can tackle the "hordes of players that never even heard of Natural Selection 1".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. Alot of my friends purchased Killing Floor, because it was "only 20$", but won't do NS2 for 35$, because for that money they could almost get a AAA game with both MP, SP, and extensive support.
Trust me, 15$ may not seem like much, but in a time of recession across the ENTIRE world, pricing 15$ more than the average Indie game is very hurtful. I say 25$ normally, and 15$ on sales.
And you're mistaken about it not covering it; it's called selling on volume, it's what most Indie / small companies try to do. Sell a good product for a low price to a lot of people, instead of selling a good product to a few people for a high price. More people means more exposure too.
When I first came and saw NS2 was 35$, after it had been 20$ for so long, I was incredibly shocked and turned off by by the price tag. I had been considering pre-ordering it, finally was going to, but @ 35$, said no way.
This 2 for 1 deal though, @ 17.50$ a piece, was a good deal. Just saying they probably sold more during this 2 for 1 deal than they have since they released it for Pre-order. Or close too it.
Seriously there are 3 opinions that get repeated and let's stop trying to convince each other:
1. $35 is too much and it should have constant lower price. 2. $35 is too much given current state (my opinion). But perceived value of the game will grow as more features are added. No hard feelings. 3. Current price is perfect.
Let's just agree to disagree and stop repeating the same crap. You vote with your money anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1820748:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not true. Alot of my friends purchased Killing Floor, because it was "only 20$", but won't do NS2 for 35$, because for that money they could almost get a AAA game with both MP, SP, and extensive support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know Killing Floor, but since its 17€ now and it was released in may 09 I'll go ahead and assume you're not talking about preorders here. If that's the case then please reread my post, you seem to have missed the point. Again, <b>NS2 is not finished</b>. Introducing players who see UWE as "just another indie development company" to NS2 now is not a good idea. What these players will get is a beta that arguably should be called alpha and they will pass judgement on NS2 based on the crappy game experience they get now. Bottom line, it only generates bad word of mouth. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the "AAA game with both MP, SP, and extensive support". Support depends very much on the company, not its size. I've got great support from smalltime developers, I've had terrible support experiences from large publishers and vice versa. As for "a AAA game needs MP and SP", are you really trying to say Counter Strike was a crappy game because it didn't have a SP? Or that the Fallout games should be a third cheaper because there is no MP? It depends very much on the game you're creating wether both MP and SP make sense and frankly I can't imagine any form of SP in NS2 that would be worth my time playing it or UWEs effort producing it. That leaves the "AAA game" itself. I did a quick google for a definition of AAA game but it seems to be a bit open to interpretation. I'll use the definition of "High-quality games with high budget." I found in the first hit. Well you're either saying indie developers can't produce a high-quality game by definition, only high budget productions deserve high prices, or both. I disagree with both statements. I know that indie developers can produce high quality products and I believe that a products price should depend on its quality, not the budget that was used to create it.
<!--quoteo(post=1820748:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you're mistaken about it not covering it; it's called selling on volume, it's what most Indie / small companies try to do. Sell a good product for a low price to a lot of people, instead of selling a good product to a few people for a high price. More people means more exposure too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never used the word covering in the post you're quoting, so I got no idea what you're talking about...
Guys, UW isn't going anywhere. NS2 is our lives right now and we are going to get it done one way or another.
Regarding the 35$ price point, the fairness of that price shouldn't be judged based off of the current version of the game. We have to price the game in a way that takes into account all the work that is going into the final release version, and just putting out an early public version of the game shouldn't change that. We understand that in its current form the game will not seem to be worth that amount to many people, beyond our diehard fanbase, and that's why we haven't started selling the game on the Steam store yet, among other things.
In addition to all the performance and gameplay balance issues there is still a ton of new stuff left to go into the game. Off the top of my head:
--Onos (and while he may not have abilities like devour anymore, he will have other new ones, such as breaking down doors) --Exosuit, with several new weapon types and view models. --Robotics Factory building --The mobile ARC siege cannon --2 new alien structures for the alien commander - The Shift and the Shade --DI --at least 3 more fullsized maps in addition to Tram -- Rockdown will probably be removed for the release version of the game --jetpacks --portable power nodes --more alien abilities
We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.
When deciding the price point we looked at games like Left 4 Dead, and, while of course from a polished standpoint our game isn't there yet, I would say from a content standpoint NS2 holds up. And we are releasing all of our development tools, such as the level editor and cinematic editor, and will continue to add features and improve those, as well. Just because we are considered Indie in our funding model we can't just slap a low price onto our game, when many other indie games have a lot less content, are more heavily stylized with simplified art and/or gameplay, thus much easier to create.
Of course in the future we will have free to play weekends, more sales, and who knows, maybe the price will need to drop if no one is buying the game. But for the moment we are focused on making the game as good as we can to make it fully worth that 35$ cost.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@Squeal_Like_A_Pig: Thank you for that informative post Cory. I'd like to offer a personal apology for you having to even make that post (which, admittedly doesn't count for crap, but there it is).
For all you naysayers out there: If Squeal_Like_A_Pig's post doesn't explain the price of the game, then your brain exists outside the realm of reason.
In closing, I don't care if I get flamed. Complaining about the price for an incomplete game is childish and unreasonable.
Know it's not policy, but can you release sale figures so far?
And how many of them came after the 2 for one deal?
I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
I just can't justify 35$, even with what you've said in the game. I dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled by mods coming out with HQ content, and like 13 maps for free, with lots of interesting design choices and gameplay.
I am having alot of fun in the beta though, don't get that wrong, it's a blast; but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1820782:date=Jan 1 2011, 06:27 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Know it's not policy, but can you release sale figures so far?
And how many of them came after the 2 for one deal?
I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
I just can't justify 35$, even with what you've said in the game. I dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled by mods coming out with HQ content, and like 13 maps for free, with lots of interesting design choices and gameplay.
I am having alot of fun in the beta though, don't get that wrong, it's a blast; but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ERROR: Logic not found. Commencing Brain Fart.
if they wanted to be sure that they have enough money they could sell upgrades to the original preorders. allow us to pay 30$ for us that could not afford the 40$ at the time. then they could offer some alien mod for 20$ or something.
they could also buy bug fixes and features from people that know how to do so. UWE would have to buy all the rights. they could offer in game armor or something like a badge with marks on it that indicate the amount of stuff they did.
im not sure how this could work but letting community members buy features on the behalf of UWE could be an idea.
for example there could be a forum where you offer an amount of money and the feature requested. say for example an option in the settings menu to disable or mute people from speaking on your client. UWE would approve the offer and a 3rd party would agree on the price and agree that all completed work would belong to UWE and no longer have any kind of legal attachment to it other than the fact that he made it. then they 3rd party would make it. they would submit the finished product to UWE and they would review it to make sure there are no obvious exploits or anything. this would be very hard and would need a lot of improvement. and could make it difficult for UWE to later do bugfixes/updates.
I don't understand the problem with the price, how many of you as well as millions of others bought MW2 with its too late to realise no dedicated server support at the time? How many games have you bought for $40 - $60 that is no more than just multiplayer or just single player and just in effect actually one game in its self and nothing more to gain from it?
I dont see paying $35 for the game as just buying NS2 but buying a license copy of the spark engine, the spark engine that can be modified to endless possibilities, from small tweeks of NS2 to total conversions spawning new games. Think of all the free games you will get out of an engine this moddable. its way more simple to create a game on the spark engine than it is in Half-life or Source. I am pretty sure in the future NS2 will be purchased by people who are not at all interested in NS2 but are interested in a total conversion of the game or a mod that person has seen and buys NS2 jsut so they can play it. It's the same as many games with modability, how many people bought half-life to play a mod for it without taking any interest in half-life it's self? I see it all the time. Half-Life and source is the best investment ever even if the game it's self was not worth the money you paid for it? look at all the mods that came out for it that makes its worthness increase 100 fold.
<!--quoteo(post=1820782:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Know it's not policy, but can you release sale figures so far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sales have been pretty steady, with spikes around big releases (alpha, beta, recent gameplay trailer) and sales (the indie bundle, xmas sale). For a game with no marketing budget, not a lot of big presence in the mainstream public as of yet, and only fairly recently playable, and far from finished, we can't really expect a lot better at this point. We really haven't seen much evidence that many more people would be buying the game at this point if it was 25$ as opposed to 35$. The biggest reasons people choose not to buy the game at this point are: its not finished yet, its not fully optimized yet, its not on the steam store yet, or they simply aren't aware of the game. <!--quoteo(post=1820782:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
...but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most people on the forums have heard me say this a hundred times already, but Rockdown is just a TEST map, was never meant for full NS2 gameplay, and is far far smaller then the other official maps in the works. It will be removed at some point during the beta stage, as the gameplay really doesn't work as intended. Tram is the only official map, is also one of the smallest, and is still being revised and improved.
As far as variety goes, there will be plenty of variety between the official maps. For release we are focusing on just a Refinery art set theme (later there will be other very different themes such as Biodome), so there's bound to be a lot of visual similarities between the maps, but that said, we are really striving to have very different themes and plenty of unique props and landmarks for each of those maps. There is a mining map, that makes heavy use of the rock walls and cave look, has unique specific props like giant drills, and rock crushing machines. There is a refining map, which will have lots of flowing lava, a lot of red/orange lighting, and lots of unique props. Then there is a Docking map, which is also very large, has some outdoor areas, and lots of worker living/ leisure type areas, like a bar, cafeteria, locker room, ball court. All of these have a lot of unique props and textures that have not been publically released yet, that were created specifically for these maps to help make them stand out from one another. So NS2 maps should not be judged by Rockdown, which was the first map ever created, had no unique props made for it, and no real design effort to make each area stand out from others, as it was built quickly with limited assets to just get something we could run around on for testing purposes.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i love hearing some insider details :D you should REALLY consider bloggin more as you did in the beginning, with the videos etc.or twitter more (read the last wolfire blog entry about that). I think it would really help you PR wise.
Ah, and i would like to say that after many hours on rockdown, i really like that map, i will be sad the day it will leave :(
Sometimes I don't get you guys. I totally respect that you are thoroughly involved with the community, but I expect quite a few on here are actually between 15 - 20 and being inexperienced, really don't have any sort of clue to how huge this project is.
Take an example on a server recently - some guy started comparing this game to Minecraft and how it was created by one guy, and yet those servers were stable.
I can't begin to explain how much I want to beat these people round the head with a motherboard.
This also had to do with the whole 'beta' release thing as well, which of course you know. But as much as this is bad, it is brilliant experience and understanding of what it takes to do a project like this. I think despite all the stress you get when working on a big project, and how souless you feel slaving away - at the end you realise how amazing and worth the effort it has been.
You'll just have to make sure in the future that you have some sort of 'closed alpha' pre buy, and then 'open alpha' pre buy on standby if you do another project - but I expect by then you'll be successful and rich and don't have to worry about these things ;)
Well, Cory that is great to hear, the part about the content in all the diffrent maps. The one thing this project stands out in apart from the orginal gameplay is the art/designs. I played allot of games in my life and evrytime i play aliens i smile when i play gorge, skulk, etc.. or see any prop for a matter of fact. They are very very detailed and do indeed add allot of emotion and feel to a game. I follow the forums and newwpage obsessively lately so it's great to hear something from you in person.
And to add my opinion to this topic, evryone who bought the game or invested in it, whatever you like, knew what they bought. What im saying is that no future is certain but that the goal is always a possitive one.
<!--quoteo(post=1820813:date=Jan 1 2011, 08:38 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Jan 1 2011, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some Of the custom maps are Pretty nice. Should get them in the release if the mapper agrees it's a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even if they aren't officially released, they'll be very easily available and installable, see sn.wolf's packager.
one of the serious problems I'm having is the performance of the engine, it really does lag, and create hiccups during game play. Best way to explain these hiccups, short pauses between each action you make. Its either caused spamming one type of building on the map, or the engine can't handle everything that is happening all at once. Sometimes this problems can be caused by a lot of people on the server, other times it just happens out of the blue with very few people online.
So this is my most serious problem I'm having, and many others do as well. Changing abilities, and balance issues all can be changed down the line, but engine has to be more stable which it isn't currently. Its not going to happen tomorrow or this weekend, its work in progress. Though time is money which can hurt the company if not fixed within reasonable time frame.
Comments
You're right about this. But I believe that's primarily because less than half of the features are currently in the game yet, and it is currently extremely unbalanced, resulting in a severe lack of game variation. Every game is either: aliens harass and prevent flamethrowers until they get fades - then it's a slow, grindy victory for aliens; OR aliens fail to successfully prevent flamethrowers - slow, grindy victory for marines; OR aliens skulk-rush and end the game in the first few minutes. Throw in a bit of turret spam and hydra spam on either side to increase the slow grindiness. Games <b>rarely</b> differ from these three situations, and even when they do, it doesn't necessarily mean they're better.
<!--quoteo(post=1820676:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection was unique, and innovative when it first came out. Way back when, it's 2010(almost 2011), and it's innovations have been done time and time again and are no longer so "unique", as they were, so the game needs more selling points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think NS2 can even sell itself based on innovation or innovative features anymore (maybe DI?), but instead, it must sell itself on a whole, as a different game, and as a good game.
I also agree that $35 is quite simply too much to expect from the average consumer, even though as I say that, I paid $40 for my Special Edition in which I was not able to even load the Alpha once. I'm not going to get that money back, and frankly I don't want that money back, I just want UWE to make the good game that I paid for.
I'm talking about the person who has never played NS1, heard or it, ect, and just sees NS2, and now he needs to see a reason why he'll pay 35$ for it. It's lacking right now.
TO be honest, I squirm everytime I see one of the new release trailers and it quotes, quotes from Game review sites from NS1. Those are NS1 quotes, they do not apply to NS2, it feels kinda like false advertisement. I know it's harmless, but to me, I just kinda go "...eh...", when I see it. Especially the "NS's innovations are too numerous to list", it feels like they're living off past glory, which is fine, usually, but that was waaaay in the past, so now they have to stop riding on the name Natural Selection. They need ot make people who don't know Natural Selection, or even HL1, or the modding scene.
And 35$ certainly isn't attractive.
Response to below:
Yeah I know man, I dun regret it either, went half an half with a friend, but that's the only reason I got it. I wasn't planning to buy this @ 35$, until it went on sale or something, or I just got it gifted randomly. 35$ put me off so much, I stopped checking the site.
I'm just saying that I'm not going to b*tch about the past (it's paid for), but I have high expectations for the future (it better be good).
I'd pay 25$ tops, I'm saying 35$ is to much.
60$ AAA titles? Very few; StarCraft 2 & Black Ops are the only I can think of.
Indie games have always been 15-20$ for their content. People simply won't pay 50-60$ for a Indie game with no backround.
You always need to backwork this stuff from your target consumer. In this case its bored TF2 players who are currently spending more than $35 on hat and weapon packs.
Again... everything is in place... they just need to make the game good.
lock the thread plz?
I'd pay 25$ tops, I'm saying 35$ is to much.
60$ AAA titles? Very few; StarCraft 2 & Black Ops are the only I can think of.
Indie games have always been 15-20$ for their content. People simply won't pay 50-60$ for a Indie game with no backround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
60$?
I pay 20$ for "AAA" like Black Ops...totaly legal.
And 35$ are not to much for NS2 because you don't have pay that much, the fans like me did it, to support the developer like max, charlie, cory and matt.
I realy hope they don't disappoint us, because they did to me a bit with the "beta", its in my mind very undone, i never play a beta which is that undone like this and i play a lot.
On xmas i gift some friends the Game, and they where excited to test it and next day i say like "and how was it?" friend:,,very lagy and stuff, not playable"..."yeah".
Do you know who "Henry Kropf" or "Brian Cronin" is?
There are copyrighted in some lua files, community user who help out?
Anyway they should speed up!
Is it just me or was 159 better then 160?
159 don't feel that laggy like 160, in 160 i always shoot and run against my own "hitbox/hitzone" you can test it with shooting spikes as lerk and switch to gas, you always shoot in front of you where you shoot the spikes.
Or if you are marine walk from forward to backward(or left to right), you always get blocked by your own "hitbox or hitzone"
I'd pay 25$ tops, I'm saying 35$ is to much.
60$ AAA titles? Very few; StarCraft 2 & Black Ops are the only I can think of.
Indie games have always been 15-20$ for their content. People simply won't pay 50-60$ for a Indie game with no backround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what wheee is saying is stop whining about the price. It's not going to change anything.
Whining? There is no whining here. Simple fact. I already have the game, so it's not a question of me not shelling out money, I just see it as detrimental to trying to get the game popular.
But those people aren't the target audience right now. Maybe I missed something, but people don't wander about randomly preordering games just because they only cost 20$. Who in his right mind would?
Please keep in mind that NS2 is not finished. It doesn't have to attract new players yet. I would even say it shouldn't. If you preorder now you get access to a beta that is next to unplayable and I don't want anyone who never played NS1 to base his/her opinion of NS2 on that. At the moment UWE needs to finish this game and they need to get it right. If they pull another stunt with the release like they did when they called an early Alpha 'Beta' I see a dark future for NS2 und UWE in general. Because thats when NS2 should - and hopefully will be - judged. On release day. And thats also when we - the fanbase - need to go out and spread the word wether NS2 is worth the money they are charging at that point, thats when we can tackle the "hordes of players that never even heard of Natural Selection 1".
If UWE drops the price any lower it wont make much of a profit , not enough to finance another game and definetly not enough to impress and potential investors.
... besides the comments left on GameTrailers about the official NS 2 trailer was quiet positive, and as such favourable with some marketing when the game is in a proper working conditon with enough <b>official</b> servers to cover the regions UWE is targeting.
* not the bold on official, UWE will have set up some official servers for regions other than the US, relying on community put up servers simply wont cut it in area other than the US. The EU has very limited server coverage at the moment.
Please keep in mind that NS2 is not finished. It doesn't have to attract new players yet. I would even say it shouldn't. If you preorder now you get access to a beta that is next to unplayable and I don't want anyone who never played NS1 to base his/her opinion of NS2 on that. At the moment UWE needs to finish this game and they need to get it right. If they pull another stunt with the release like they did when they called an early Alpha 'Beta' I see a dark future for NS2 und UWE in general. Because thats when NS2 should - and hopefully will be - judged. On release day. And thats also when we - the fanbase - need to go out and spread the word wether NS2 is worth the money they are charging at that point, thats when we can tackle the "hordes of players that never even heard of Natural Selection 1".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. Alot of my friends purchased Killing Floor, because it was "only 20$", but won't do NS2 for 35$, because for that money they could almost get a AAA game with both MP, SP, and extensive support.
Trust me, 15$ may not seem like much, but in a time of recession across the ENTIRE world, pricing 15$ more than the average Indie game is very hurtful. I say 25$ normally, and 15$ on sales.
And you're mistaken about it not covering it; it's called selling on volume, it's what most Indie / small companies try to do. Sell a good product for a low price to a lot of people, instead of selling a good product to a few people for a high price. More people means more exposure too.
When I first came and saw NS2 was 35$, after it had been 20$ for so long, I was incredibly shocked and turned off by by the price tag. I had been considering pre-ordering it, finally was going to, but @ 35$, said no way.
This 2 for 1 deal though, @ 17.50$ a piece, was a good deal. Just saying they probably sold more during this 2 for 1 deal than they have since they released it for Pre-order. Or close too it.
1. $35 is too much and it should have constant lower price.
2. $35 is too much given current state (my opinion). But perceived value of the game will grow as more features are added. No hard feelings.
3. Current price is perfect.
Let's just agree to disagree and stop repeating the same crap. You vote with your money anyway.
I don't know Killing Floor, but since its 17€ now and it was released in may 09 I'll go ahead and assume you're not talking about preorders here. If that's the case then please reread my post, you seem to have missed the point.
Again, <b>NS2 is not finished</b>. Introducing players who see UWE as "just another indie development company" to NS2 now is not a good idea. What these players will get is a beta that arguably should be called alpha and they will pass judgement on NS2 based on the crappy game experience they get now. Bottom line, it only generates bad word of mouth.
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the "AAA game with both MP, SP, and extensive support". Support depends very much on the company, not its size. I've got great support from smalltime developers, I've had terrible support experiences from large publishers and vice versa.
As for "a AAA game needs MP and SP", are you really trying to say Counter Strike was a crappy game because it didn't have a SP? Or that the Fallout games should be a third cheaper because there is no MP? It depends very much on the game you're creating wether both MP and SP make sense and frankly I can't imagine any form of SP in NS2 that would be worth my time playing it or UWEs effort producing it.
That leaves the "AAA game" itself. I did a quick google for a definition of AAA game but it seems to be a bit open to interpretation. I'll use the definition of "High-quality games with high budget." I found in the first hit. Well you're either saying indie developers can't produce a high-quality game by definition, only high budget productions deserve high prices, or both. I disagree with both statements. I know that indie developers can produce high quality products and I believe that a products price should depend on its quality, not the budget that was used to create it.
<!--quoteo(post=1820748:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you're mistaken about it not covering it; it's called selling on volume, it's what most Indie / small companies try to do. Sell a good product for a low price to a lot of people, instead of selling a good product to a few people for a high price. More people means more exposure too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never used the word covering in the post you're quoting, so I got no idea what you're talking about...
Regarding the 35$ price point, the fairness of that price shouldn't be judged based off of the current version of the game. We have to price the game in a way that takes into account all the work that is going into the final release version, and just putting out an early public version of the game shouldn't change that. We understand that in its current form the game will not seem to be worth that amount to many people, beyond our diehard fanbase, and that's why we haven't started selling the game on the Steam store yet, among other things.
In addition to all the performance and gameplay balance issues there is still a ton of new stuff left to go into the game. Off the top of my head:
--Onos (and while he may not have abilities like devour anymore, he will have other new ones, such as breaking down doors)
--Exosuit, with several new weapon types and view models.
--Robotics Factory building
--The mobile ARC siege cannon
--2 new alien structures for the alien commander - The Shift and the Shade
--DI
--at least 3 more fullsized maps in addition to Tram -- Rockdown will probably be removed for the release version of the game
--jetpacks
--portable power nodes
--more alien abilities
We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.
When deciding the price point we looked at games like Left 4 Dead, and, while of course from a polished standpoint our game isn't there yet, I would say from a content standpoint NS2 holds up. And we are releasing all of our development tools, such as the level editor and cinematic editor, and will continue to add features and improve those, as well. Just because we are considered Indie in our funding model we can't just slap a low price onto our game, when many other indie games have a lot less content, are more heavily stylized with simplified art and/or gameplay, thus much easier to create.
Of course in the future we will have free to play weekends, more sales, and who knows, maybe the price will need to drop if no one is buying the game. But for the moment we are focused on making the game as good as we can to make it fully worth that 35$ cost.
--Cory
For all you naysayers out there: If Squeal_Like_A_Pig's post doesn't explain the price of the game, then your brain exists outside the realm of reason.
In closing, I don't care if I get flamed. Complaining about the price for an incomplete game is childish and unreasonable.
And how many of them came after the 2 for one deal?
I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
I just can't justify 35$, even with what you've said in the game. I dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled by mods coming out with HQ content, and like 13 maps for free, with lots of interesting design choices and gameplay.
I am having alot of fun in the beta though, don't get that wrong, it's a blast; but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.
And how many of them came after the 2 for one deal?
I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
I just can't justify 35$, even with what you've said in the game. I dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled by mods coming out with HQ content, and like 13 maps for free, with lots of interesting design choices and gameplay.
I am having alot of fun in the beta though, don't get that wrong, it's a blast; but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ERROR: Logic not found. Commencing Brain Fart.
they could also buy bug fixes and features from people that know how to do so. UWE would have to buy all the rights. they could offer in game armor or something like a badge with marks on it that indicate the amount of stuff they did.
im not sure how this could work but letting community members buy features on the behalf of UWE could be an idea.
for example there could be a forum where you offer an amount of money and the feature requested. say for example an option in the settings menu to disable or mute people from speaking on your client. UWE would approve the offer and a 3rd party would agree on the price and agree that all completed work would belong to UWE and no longer have any kind of legal attachment to it other than the fact that he made it. then they 3rd party would make it. they would submit the finished product to UWE and they would review it to make sure there are no obvious exploits or anything. this would be very hard and would need a lot of improvement. and could make it difficult for UWE to later do bugfixes/updates.
How many games have you bought for $40 - $60 that is no more than just multiplayer or just single player and just in effect actually one game in its self and nothing more to gain from it?
I dont see paying $35 for the game as just buying NS2 but buying a license copy of the spark engine, the spark engine that can be modified to endless possibilities, from small tweeks of NS2 to total conversions spawning new games. Think of all the free games you will get out of an engine this moddable. its way more simple to create a game on the spark engine than it is in Half-life or Source.
I am pretty sure in the future NS2 will be purchased by people who are not at all interested in NS2 but are interested in a total conversion of the game or a mod that person has seen and buys NS2 jsut so they can play it.
It's the same as many games with modability, how many people bought half-life to play a mod for it without taking any interest in half-life it's self? I see it all the time. Half-Life and source is the best investment ever even if the game it's self was not worth the money you paid for it? look at all the mods that came out for it that makes its worthness increase 100 fold.
Sales have been pretty steady, with spikes around big releases (alpha, beta, recent gameplay trailer) and sales (the indie bundle, xmas sale). For a game with no marketing budget, not a lot of big presence in the mainstream public as of yet, and only fairly recently playable, and far from finished, we can't really expect a lot better at this point. We really haven't seen much evidence that many more people would be buying the game at this point if it was 25$ as opposed to 35$. The biggest reasons people choose not to buy the game at this point are: its not finished yet, its not fully optimized yet, its not on the steam store yet, or they simply aren't aware of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1820782:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 1 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also said I realize that stuff is going into the game. And only 4 maps on release? Ekk, the current ones are small as is man...small by todays standards, and smaller than NS1 maps.
...but the current maps I've played and they seem like the same map, I sometimes rarely notice I am playing on a different map.
Needs more variety. I know it is the theme of NS, but you need more variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people on the forums have heard me say this a hundred times already, but Rockdown is just a TEST map, was never meant for full NS2 gameplay, and is far far smaller then the other official maps in the works. It will be removed at some point during the beta stage, as the gameplay really doesn't work as intended. Tram is the only official map, is also one of the smallest, and is still being revised and improved.
As far as variety goes, there will be plenty of variety between the official maps. For release we are focusing on just a Refinery art set theme (later there will be other very different themes such as Biodome), so there's bound to be a lot of visual similarities between the maps, but that said, we are really striving to have very different themes and plenty of unique props and landmarks for each of those maps. There is a mining map, that makes heavy use of the rock walls and cave look, has unique specific props like giant drills, and rock crushing machines. There is a refining map, which will have lots of flowing lava, a lot of red/orange lighting, and lots of unique props. Then there is a Docking map, which is also very large, has some outdoor areas, and lots of worker living/ leisure type areas, like a bar, cafeteria, locker room, ball court. All of these have a lot of unique props and textures that have not been publically released yet, that were created specifically for these maps to help make them stand out from one another. So NS2 maps should not be judged by Rockdown, which was the first map ever created, had no unique props made for it, and no real design effort to make each area stand out from others, as it was built quickly with limited assets to just get something we could run around on for testing purposes.
--Cory
Ah, and i would like to say that after many hours on rockdown, i really like that map, i will be sad the day it will leave :(
Take an example on a server recently - some guy started comparing this game to Minecraft and how it was created by one guy, and yet those servers were stable.
I can't begin to explain how much I want to beat these people round the head with a motherboard.
This also had to do with the whole 'beta' release thing as well, which of course you know. But as much as this is bad, it is brilliant experience and understanding of what it takes to do a project like this. I think despite all the stress you get when working on a big project, and how souless you feel slaving away - at the end you realise how amazing and worth the effort it has been.
You'll just have to make sure in the future that you have some sort of 'closed alpha' pre buy, and then 'open alpha' pre buy on standby if you do another project - but I expect by then you'll be successful and rich and don't have to worry about these things ;)
And to add my opinion to this topic, evryone who bought the game or invested in it, whatever you like, knew what they bought. What im saying is that no future is certain but that the goal is always a possitive one.
even if they aren't officially released, they'll be very easily available and installable, see sn.wolf's packager.
So this is my most serious problem I'm having, and many others do as well. Changing abilities, and balance issues all can be changed down the line, but engine has to be more stable which it isn't currently. Its not going to happen tomorrow or this weekend, its work in progress. Though time is money which can hurt the company if not fixed within reasonable time frame.