<!--quoteo(post=1823109:date=Jan 10 2011, 11:18 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 10 2011, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FF is totaly fail...because new people or just idiots will hurt their mates for fun...no way. Its enough your mates can block you (aliens too...like in ns1)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well even if you minus that off the list of negatives, there is still a hell of a lot to play with. Hurting yourself if fired in close proximity would completely reduce how effective you are against skulks. Unless of course you stood in a corridor aiming down it, and only fired when one came down it.
<!--quoteo(post=1823109:date=Jan 10 2011, 07:18 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 10 2011, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. no not realy always, the grenade launcher is very good, i kill a lot of aliens incl. fades with grenades, same as with Flamethrower. Okay they can blink away, but most times i hit and kill them with 2 grenades and fire him with the rifle. The Shotgun takes a fade down in like 3 hits, shotguns did a lot of damage to a fade. And its very hard as aliens to go in marine base if they got a lot of sentrys guarding the base. At the others, its a beta, not all is included ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what you're saying here, or what that's got to do with what I'm talking about. You've killed a fade or two. A good player with a shotgun and pistol can do that. But <b>has that won you the game</b>?
kGrenadeLauncherDamage = 150 (so it need 2 grenades and the fade is dead)
Skulk did kBiteDamage = 75, no wonder he kill a marine with 2 bites, i like that, because marines have Shotguns, Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher...the balance is ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I've done this analysis on shotguns, going to add it to my thread very soon. Also, it actually takes 25 shotgun pellets to kill a fade at maxdamage range, so that is a little under 3 shots, as you've said. It would take 36 pellets, so 4 shots, to kill a fade at mindamage range - at that range most of your pellets would miss though anyway, so it's a bad idea.
It would also take a minimum of 3 grenades to kill a fade, I haven't yet looked at the code for the grenade, but it's a reasonable assumption, as you're neglecting armour in your calculation. I don't know what godly method you're using to kill fades though tbh, I thought the grenade was timed rather than impact?
Please also see my thread (it's in my signature) about the skulk's 2 bites. It is <b>not</b> supposed to work like that, it is supposed to take 3 successful bites. The biggest indicator that it's broken is that the armour doesn't run out before the hp. Twitter said something about skulks owning marines? That'd be a big part of the reason - they should be successfully biting 50% more than they are now.
<!--quoteo(post=1823126:date=Jan 10 2011, 02:27 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 10 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what you're saying here, or what that's got to do with what I'm talking about. You've killed a fade or two. A good player with a shotgun and pistol can do that. But <b>has that won you the game</b>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the issue for me at the moment. Everything kills players / marines effectively. But there is nothing that kills structures effectively enough to have early wins. Or wins that come about from a gambled but tactical risk. (Apart from aliens, as they can much IPs etc).
Though weapons could be seen to be 'overpowered', if they took down structures as fast as you can take down aliens but were offset by cost and risk (and the above suggestions for changing the flame thrower), it would really help to move the game forward at different tiers.
In fact, I think every Tier there should be an effective anti structure weapon that becomes available. So for marines:
Tier 1 - Shotgun (more or less as is) Tier 2 - Flame thrower (Covert weapon you could sneak near to a hive, until fired of course) Tier 3 - ARC (Overt, but more powerful) & EXO (Very overt, and destroys everything)
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1823152:date=Jan 10 2011, 10:35 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 10 2011, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the issue for me at the moment. Everything kills players / marines effectively. But there is nothing that kills structures effectively enough to have early wins. Or wins that come about from a gambled but tactical risk. (Apart from aliens, as they can much IPs etc).
Though weapons could be seen to be 'overpowered', if they took down structures as fast as you can take down aliens but were offset by cost and risk (and the above suggestions for changing the flame thrower), it would really help to move the game forward at different tiers.
In fact, I think every Tier there should be an effective anti structure weapon that becomes available. So for marines:
Tier 1 - Shotgun (more or less as is) Tier 2 - Flame thrower (Covert weapon you could sneak near to a hive, until fired of course) Tier 3 - ARC (Overt, but more powerful) & EXO (Very overt, and destroys everything)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd also drop the health of alien structures in general. The combination of their natural (and crag/healing spray) regen rate and their health makes it hard to unroot whip/hydra/crag spam.
As it stands, there is very little point to continue playing the game until something gets addressed regarding flamethrower. You can somehow get to tier 2 without a powered command center. Why is this? It should be required that 1) it gets built, and 2) that it gets powered. The fact that it goes through walls makes it all the more funny. It's <b>no wonder</b> that servers went from 14, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 to it being DIFFICULT to get a full server. Not to mention, when marines get flamethrowers, the aliens just pretty much give up and leave or try and stay in even though it's a losing battle.
Nerf aliens. WHATEVER. I don't care. But, as of now, there is *NO REASON* to continue playing in end game NS2.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Flamethrower's particle effect is too dense and opaque. Watch NS2HD 90 and 91, and see for yourself the view of a Fade against a flame thrower. Getting close to a flame thrower is a good way of getting one's face melted. NS2HD also summarized another problem aliens are have: Once you get past the flame and the grenades, there will be a few layers of sentries waiting for the aliens. Aliens do not yet have anything that can take down sentry farms (tended by a small army of MACs).
The Flaming Sword of Blinding Death shouldn't be, and currently isn't too effective against alien structures. It is meant to be a well-balanced support weapon for the Marines. Grenades, shotguns and the stock Rifle, are already quite effective at killing alien structures from range.
I see the biggest problem with flamethrower simply being the blinding effect.
Just for interest:
Axe has a base damage of 30, with a cooldown of 0.6. That's (under ideal conditions) 50 dps. But it does double damage against structures. So 100 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Harvester has 2000 health and 250 armour, effectively 2500 hitpoints. It takes 25 seconds for a lone marine to cut down a Harvester.
A grenade has a base damage of 150. Double damage against structures. So 300 damage. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 9 (8.33r) grenades to take down a harvester. This is assuming point-blank explosion, as damage drops off with blast radius, scaling linearly from r = 0 (maxdamage) to r = damageradius (0 damage).
Shotgun does 20 damage per pellet (assuming point-blank), and 10 pellets total. That's 200 damage. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 13 (12.5) shells to take down a harvester.
Flamethrower does 35 damage 'per shot' and 'fires' every 0.5 seconds. That's 70 dps. It can fire for a length of 10 seconds. Add 10 dps from burning effects for a total of 80 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. It takes 31.25 seconds for a lone flamethrower to take down, assuming continous burning and continuous flame (not going to happen).
Skulk has 70 health and 10 armour. Effectively 90 hitpoints. Takes a flamethrower (just the flame, no burning effects) 1.3 seconds to kill a skulk. On the other hand, it takes 9 rifle bullets to kill a skulk, and if it were working right and you had a 100% hit-rate, it would only take 0.4995 seconds to kill a skulk. You can also one-shot a skulk with a shotgun, so it effectively takes 0 seconds to kill a skulk with a shotgun.
By comparison, skulk bite has a base damage of 75, cooldown of 0.45 seconds. That's 166.6r7 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Extractor has 4800 health and 600 armour, effectively 6000 hitpoints. It takes a lone skulk 36 seconds to bite down an extractor.
Fade swipe does 80 damage, cooldown of 0.5 seconds. That's 160 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 37.5 seconds to take out an extractor.
The biggest problem *is* the blinding effect. But, the fact that aliens have to get through both nade spam, flamethrowers, and THEN sentry spam, there's just no way to to push against that. This is coming from a person who literally plays Alien -> Marine -> Alien -> Marine to keep it fresh. If there were a random on every server, that would be me.
There are currently no ways to take down a structure fast enough for an alien and if so, there are no AE effects that are powerful enough as the flamethrower. Did we mention <b>it goes through walls?</b>. It is essentially, <b>NoClip</b>.
Like I said, I also understand that very early in game, it is aliens who are powerful. I think this is partially because of the hit rate on the pulse rifle. I just don't want to have to quit the game when marines get flamethrowers and then especially grenades. lol.
edit: the NoClip should be collision detection. I completely forgot that word until just now. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1823301:date=Jan 11 2011, 02:37 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 11 2011, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see the biggest problem with flamethrower simply being the blinding effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would also like to add the time the alien player keeps on burning (and maybe the amount of damage taken by this). Maybe there is a bug but sometimes as a gorge I have been sitting next to a crag for about five seconds (in the few situations where I manage to get away and the ff is no instant-roastet me), kept on burning and finally died. I don't know how long aliens are supposed to keep on burning or if the crag can "counter-heal" the burning effect in the first place, but that seemed simply "wrong".
Burning is a "game effect". Game effects update every 0.3 seconds. Each update, it does the following: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->//PlayingTeam.lua: PlayingTeam.kUpdateGameEffectsInterval = .3 // See if we put ourselves out local stopFireChance = PlayingTeam.kUpdateGameEffectsInterval * kStopFireProbability
//BalanceMisc.lua: kStopFireProbability = .15 // 15% chance per second<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> Basically, stopFireChance = 0.3*0.15 = 0.045 NetworkRandom() finds a random value between 0 and 1; if it's less than 0.045, the player gets put out. <b>Every trial there's only a 4.5% chance that a player will get put out.</b> This seems incredibly wrong to me.
Because in fact, over say, 0.9 seconds (3 trials), the chance that the player gets put out is: 1 - [(3Choose0)*0.045^0*(1-0.045)^3] = 1 - [1*1*0.955^23] = 0.129 chance ===> actual chance Compare to: 0.15 chance per second * 0.9 seconds = 0.135 chance ===> the projected chance, based on the idea of "15% chance <b>per second</b>" The discrepancy doesn't seem too large, but actual chance is certainly less.
But to illustrate that point better, let's consider 23 trials (6.9 seconds): actual chance = 1 - [(23Choose0)*0.045^0*(1-0.045)^23] = 1 - [1*1*0.955^23] = 0.653 chance projected chance = 0.15*6.9 = 1.035 ===> supposedly over 100% chance. impossible. The difference is obvious.
<i>What we're interested in is "the chance of at least 1 success", given a number of trials. This can be re-expressed as the chance of there <b>not</b> being 'zero successes'. (1 - chance of zero successes) which is what I've used above.</i>
Needless to say, there is a <b>far</b> greater likelihood that you'll die before you get put out.
There is also another problem with the method used, because for example, you could set kStopFireProbability to 1.5 (150%, a pretty much impossible value in terms of probability), but that would still make the chance per trial 0.45, or 45%.
What I (personally) think should happen, is that stopFireChance should simply be kStopFireProbability, independent of the update time; and you can have kStopFireProbability whatever is best for balance.
My personal opinion is that for structures, the burn duration should go on for an extended period, but for players, it should go out more quickly. Perhaps you could triple the chance for players, or something.
Also note that the Gorge's healspray is designed to put out flames: <!--quoteo(post=1823338:date=Jan 12 2011, 03:08 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 12 2011, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing to consider though is that gorge spray is supposed to put out flames. <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->//SpitSpray.lua function SpitSpray:HealEntities(player) if isHealPlayer then // Put out entities on fire targetEntity:SetGameEffectMask(kGameEffect.OnFire, false)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just give it a fixed duration and do away with the luck aspect altogether.
I expect that the proper volumetric behaviour, once implemented, will do wonders to address the flamethrower's balance issues, because it won't be capable of precision tracking any more. It'd implicitly fix going through walls, too.
There are 4 upgrade weapons: SG, GL, Flame, minigun (HMG).
So we can have weapons specialized by 2 factors: range and target. SG: short range, units HMG: medium range, units GL: long range, structures Flames: medium range, structures
So flames right now is too good against units. It should be a specialty weapon. Maybe it should cut the rate of fire of hydras, whips, and crags when they are burning, to make it a truly short-medium range structure weapon and increase tactical gameplay. For the hive, healing can be decreased when it is burning. But, it shouldn't do too much damage. I also don't like the luck aspect of flamethrower damage, or that units burn so much for after damage, it totally defeats hit and run tactics for aliens, which is the only thing they do. It could be that flames are a damage multiplier against structures, so that they increase damage against targets on fire, but doesn't do much damage itself. It could also be changed so that you need to do a certain minimum amount of "stack damage" with it before targets totally light on fire and take the damage. As it is you just tap someone and they're screaming in flaming terror even if you didn't stack much damage.
But actually in 161 I feel like the shotgun is extremely effective, and I sometimes choose it over flames. I've been blasting fades left and right. Only takes a couple shots. And skulks take 1.
I like Harimau's ideas too, in addition to different structure/unit flaming duration, you could also have different time to ignition between players and structures. Like hives would take an entire clip to ignite. But then they BURN. You almost have to do this just because of how insane the hive goes when it's burning. Otherwise it's a little <!--coloro:magenta--><span style="color:magenta"><!--/coloro-->drama queen<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> / emo.
I too agree that maybe the flamethrower shouold have a specific time of burn rather than chance. And perhaps make the flamethrower do direct damage the first X seconds versus any target and after X seconds the target lights on fire (hive should take longer than skulks). Could improve it, just an idea. Basically the way I see the flamethrower in game is - it should be a good seige weapon and do good damage versus light targets (ie skulks). I am not sure, but I dont think the gorge is able to put out the fire presently, but this ability would give the gorge another big job to do, which is good.
I too have ran away from flmaethrowers and died sitting on the hive 5 seconds later. I think there should be a way to put out the flames when you can run away to safety; gorge should be one way, but maybe something else too? Like adding water or going out into space for a short moment (idk jsut an idea).
I'm just going to put this out there - Onos is PROBABLY a hard counter for flamethrowers. That's the most obvious use for the "shield" ability, for example blocking a flamethrower from getting to a lerk/gorge that can then snipe the flamer to death, or drawing fire to allow a fade to sneak behind flamers and backstab them.
So, if this is true, given that the Onos isn't in the game yet, is it really appropriate to freak out about the flamethrower being OP, if the counter isn't available?
Other than obvious bugs, flamethrowers need a niche. Most aliens kill at close range, so giving marines a weapon which makes them more deadly at close range is silly.
My understanding was that the flamethrower was supposed to be used to clear out dynamic infestation and alien buildings.
Anyways here is my idea for balance of the flamethrower:
1. Make sure the burning damage over time does not stack from multiple flamethrower attackers. 2. Greatly reduce the damage flamethrower does directly to armor and if the target has armor remaining, greatly reduce the direct damage done to health (but keep the same damage over time regardless).
What this does:
Having a flamethrower or two in a late game push is essential to burn through the Hydras and push back dynamic infestation, plus managing to light a lot of aliens on fire will add a good damage over time advantage to the marine push, and make it take longer for fleeing aliens to heal and attack again (if they survive the DOT that is).
Skulks will still get roasted by the flamethrower due to their small amount of armor. Lerks with a bit more armor will be able to withstand the caress of the flames for a bit longer as they have 3X the armor of skulks, and are usually found outside of the range of the flamethrowers anyways. Larger and more heavily armored aliens will be substantially more resistant to the flamethrower, meaning flamethrower spam isn't an option as a fade with its oodles of armor can take the heat a long time, making flamethrowers ineffective against them; even more so for the onos.
The ideal (and what my propositions are aiming for) is to have a group of marines with standard weapons (shotguns, machine guns, etc) accompanied by a couple flamethrowers for pushing power, but in a way such that adding tonnes of flamethrowers to the assault will not increase the pushing power.
So basically what I am saying is that the flamethrower should be more specialized to killing buildings, lightly armored aliens, and dynamic infestation as well as providing an extra advantage to the marine team with it's damage over time effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1823727:date=Jan 13 2011, 12:28 AM:name=NoEggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoEggs @ Jan 13 2011, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So basically what I am saying is that the flamethrower should be more specialized to killing buildings, lightly armored aliens, and dynamic infestation as well as providing an extra advantage to the marine team with it's damage over time effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think UW's current plan is fine, and the illusion of it being unbalanced is only caused by bugs and the fact that the alien team is incomplete
edit - also stop signing your posts, people can already see your user name to the left of your post
<!--quoteo(post=1823727:date=Jan 13 2011, 07:28 AM:name=NoEggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoEggs @ Jan 13 2011, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other than obvious bugs, flamethrowers need a niche. Most aliens kill at close range, so giving marines a weapon which makes them more deadly at close range is silly.
My understanding was that the flamethrower was supposed to be used to clear out dynamic infestation and alien buildings.
Anyways here is my idea for balance of the flamethrower:
1. Make sure the burning damage over time does not stack from multiple flamethrower attackers. 2. Greatly reduce the damage flamethrower does directly to armor and if the target has armor remaining, greatly reduce the direct damage done to health (but keep the same damage over time regardless).
What this does:
Having a flamethrower or two in a late game push is essential to burn through the Hydras and push back dynamic infestation, plus managing to light a lot of aliens on fire will add a good damage over time advantage to the marine push, and make it take longer for fleeing aliens to heal and attack again (if they survive the DOT that is).
Skulks will still get roasted by the flamethrower due to their small amount of armor. Lerks with a bit more armor will be able to withstand the caress of the flames for a bit longer as they have 3X the armor of skulks, and are usually found outside of the range of the flamethrowers anyways. Larger and more heavily armored aliens will be substantially more resistant to the flamethrower, meaning flamethrower spam isn't an option as a fade with its oodles of armor can take the heat a long time, making flamethrowers ineffective against them; even more so for the onos.
The ideal (and what my propositions are aiming for) is to have a group of marines with standard weapons (shotguns, machine guns, etc) accompanied by a couple flamethrowers for pushing power, but in a way such that adding tonnes of flamethrowers to the assault will not increase the pushing power.
So basically what I am saying is that the flamethrower should be more specialized to killing buildings, lightly armored aliens, and dynamic infestation as well as providing an extra advantage to the marine team with it's damage over time effect.
Thoughts?
-- No_Eggs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually a good idea. If you make the flamethrower damage-type similar to "Light" so 4 health damage is blocked per point of armour, or give it its own damage type with a higher health-per-armour, but bonus damage against structures. It would also make it pretty much ineffective against an Onos with its 600 armour (hitpoints = 700+600*healthperarmor).
I'm also pretty keen on fixed burn durations: higher for structures and lower for players, but also, fixed ignition durations: higher for structures and lower for players. Maybe you could have burning a % of maxhp.
Though it became even more overpowered, I believe that the new spin on its function could be very beneficial to the game (When you're on fire, your energy does not regenerate). My thoughts are to decrease damage versus players (must have!) and continue on with the tweaking as mentioned above.
All in all, this might be a good niche for flamethrowers versus players.
flamethrowers really are an unbalanced weapon, and aliens still have zero defense against it. And no offense to the developers but they didn't fix flamethrowers, i'm sorry but you guys didn't.
1.still blinds you 2.still goes through walls 3. easily wave this weapon at any direction, damage over time does the rest 4.insane range 5. aliens have no defense against this at all
currently this weapon consumes fades energy, making the fade unstable to blink. Not only blink already slow process, you're gimping it further more? makes no sense at all. having to constantly selecting an area to jump to, double-clicking, and each blink you're split of second blinded and keep in mind you must do this WHILE you're in combat!!!! - is such BAD combo its not even funny. fades end up chasing their targets on FOOT! at current state they will NEVER catch moving target, which is the most important part of blink, catching your target!
Comments
Its enough your mates can block you (aliens too...like in ns1)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well even if you minus that off the list of negatives, there is still a hell of a lot to play with. Hurting yourself if fired in close proximity would completely reduce how effective you are against skulks. Unless of course you stood in a corridor aiming down it, and only fired when one came down it.
Okay they can blink away, but most times i hit and kill them with 2 grenades and fire him with the rifle.
The Shotgun takes a fade down in like 3 hits, shotguns did a lot of damage to a fade.
And its very hard as aliens to go in marine base if they got a lot of sentrys guarding the base.
At the others, its a beta, not all is included ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you're saying here, or what that's got to do with what I'm talking about. You've killed a fade or two. A good player with a shotgun and pistol can do that. But <b>has that won you the game</b>?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSkulkHealth = 70 kSkulkArmor = 10 kSkulkPointValue = 5
kGorgeHealth = 150 kGorgeArmor = 50 kGorgePointValue = 7
kLerkHealth = 125 kLerkArmor = 30 kLerkPointValue = 15
kFadeHealth = 300 kFadeArmor = 100 kFadePointValue = 20
kOnosHealth = 700 kOnosArmor = 600 kOnosPointValue = 30
kEggHealth = 200 kEggArmor = 0 kEggPointValue = 2<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
kShotgunMaxDamage = 20
kShotgunMinDamage = 14
+
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10
= 10x20(10x14) = 200(140) Damage on one direct hit! It has 8 Clips
kGrenadeLauncherDamage = 150 (so it need 2 grenades and the fade is dead)
Skulk did kBiteDamage = 75, no wonder he kill a marine with 2 bites, i like that, because marines have Shotguns, Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher...the balance is ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I've done this analysis on shotguns, going to add it to my thread very soon. Also, it actually takes 25 shotgun pellets to kill a fade at maxdamage range, so that is a little under 3 shots, as you've said. It would take 36 pellets, so 4 shots, to kill a fade at mindamage range - at that range most of your pellets would miss though anyway, so it's a bad idea.
It would also take a minimum of 3 grenades to kill a fade, I haven't yet looked at the code for the grenade, but it's a reasonable assumption, as you're neglecting armour in your calculation. I don't know what godly method you're using to kill fades though tbh, I thought the grenade was timed rather than impact?
Please also see my thread (it's in my signature) about the skulk's 2 bites. It is <b>not</b> supposed to work like that, it is supposed to take 3 successful bites. The biggest indicator that it's broken is that the armour doesn't run out before the hp. Twitter said something about skulks owning marines? That'd be a big part of the reason - they should be successfully biting 50% more than they are now.
This is the issue for me at the moment. Everything kills players / marines effectively. But there is nothing that kills structures effectively enough to have early wins. Or wins that come about from a gambled but tactical risk. (Apart from aliens, as they can much IPs etc).
Though weapons could be seen to be 'overpowered', if they took down structures as fast as you can take down aliens but were offset by cost and risk (and the above suggestions for changing the flame thrower), it would really help to move the game forward at different tiers.
In fact, I think every Tier there should be an effective anti structure weapon that becomes available. So for marines:
Tier 1 - Shotgun (more or less as is)
Tier 2 - Flame thrower (Covert weapon you could sneak near to a hive, until fired of course)
Tier 3 - ARC (Overt, but more powerful) & EXO (Very overt, and destroys everything)
Though weapons could be seen to be 'overpowered', if they took down structures as fast as you can take down aliens but were offset by cost and risk (and the above suggestions for changing the flame thrower), it would really help to move the game forward at different tiers.
In fact, I think every Tier there should be an effective anti structure weapon that becomes available. So for marines:
Tier 1 - Shotgun (more or less as is)
Tier 2 - Flame thrower (Covert weapon you could sneak near to a hive, until fired of course)
Tier 3 - ARC (Overt, but more powerful) & EXO (Very overt, and destroys everything)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd also drop the health of alien structures in general. The combination of their natural (and crag/healing spray) regen rate and their health makes it hard to unroot whip/hydra/crag spam.
Nerf aliens. WHATEVER. I don't care. But, as of now, there is *NO REASON* to continue playing in end game NS2.
The Flaming Sword of Blinding Death shouldn't be, and currently isn't too effective against alien structures. It is meant to be a well-balanced support weapon for the Marines. Grenades, shotguns and the stock Rifle, are already quite effective at killing alien structures from range.
Just for interest:
Axe has a base damage of 30, with a cooldown of 0.6. That's (under ideal conditions) 50 dps. But it does double damage against structures. So 100 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Harvester has 2000 health and 250 armour, effectively 2500 hitpoints. It takes 25 seconds for a lone marine to cut down a Harvester.
A grenade has a base damage of 150. Double damage against structures. So 300 damage. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 9 (8.33r) grenades to take down a harvester. This is assuming point-blank explosion, as damage drops off with blast radius, scaling linearly from r = 0 (maxdamage) to r = damageradius (0 damage).
Shotgun does 20 damage per pellet (assuming point-blank), and 10 pellets total. That's 200 damage. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 13 (12.5) shells to take down a harvester.
Flamethrower does 35 damage 'per shot' and 'fires' every 0.5 seconds. That's 70 dps. It can fire for a length of 10 seconds. Add 10 dps from burning effects for a total of 80 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. It takes 31.25 seconds for a lone flamethrower to take down, assuming continous burning and continuous flame (not going to happen).
Skulk has 70 health and 10 armour. Effectively 90 hitpoints. Takes a flamethrower (just the flame, no burning effects) 1.3 seconds to kill a skulk. On the other hand, it takes 9 rifle bullets to kill a skulk, and if it were working right and you had a 100% hit-rate, it would only take 0.4995 seconds to kill a skulk. You can also one-shot a skulk with a shotgun, so it effectively takes 0 seconds to kill a skulk with a shotgun.
By comparison, skulk bite has a base damage of 75, cooldown of 0.45 seconds. That's 166.6r7 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Extractor has 4800 health and 600 armour, effectively 6000 hitpoints. It takes a lone skulk 36 seconds to bite down an extractor.
Fade swipe does 80 damage, cooldown of 0.5 seconds. That's 160 dps. "Normal" HealthPerArmor. Takes 37.5 seconds to take out an extractor.
There are currently no ways to take down a structure fast enough for an alien and if so, there are no AE effects that are powerful enough as the flamethrower. Did we mention <b>it goes through walls?</b>. It is essentially, <b>NoClip</b>.
Like I said, I also understand that very early in game, it is aliens who are powerful. I think this is partially because of the hit rate on the pulse rifle. I just don't want to have to quit the game when marines get flamethrowers and then especially grenades. lol.
edit: the NoClip should be collision detection. I completely forgot that word until just now. :P
I would also like to add the time the alien player keeps on burning (and maybe the amount of damage taken by this). Maybe there is a bug but sometimes as a gorge I have been sitting next to a crag for about five seconds (in the few situations where I manage to get away and the ff is no instant-roastet me), kept on burning and finally died. I don't know how long aliens are supposed to keep on burning or if the crag can "counter-heal" the burning effect in the first place, but that seemed simply "wrong".
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->//PlayingTeam.lua:
PlayingTeam.kUpdateGameEffectsInterval = .3
// See if we put ourselves out
local stopFireChance = PlayingTeam.kUpdateGameEffectsInterval * kStopFireProbability
if NetworkRandom() < stopFireChance then
entity:SetGameEffectMask(kGameEffect.OnFire, false)
end
//BalanceMisc.lua:
kStopFireProbability = .15 // 15% chance per second<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Basically, stopFireChance = 0.3*0.15 = 0.045
NetworkRandom() finds a random value between 0 and 1; if it's less than 0.045, the player gets put out.
<b>Every trial there's only a 4.5% chance that a player will get put out.</b>
This seems incredibly wrong to me.
Because in fact, over say, 0.9 seconds (3 trials), the chance that the player gets put out is:
1 - [(3Choose0)*0.045^0*(1-0.045)^3] = 1 - [1*1*0.955^23] = 0.129 chance ===> actual chance
Compare to:
0.15 chance per second * 0.9 seconds = 0.135 chance ===> the projected chance, based on the idea of "15% chance <b>per second</b>"
The discrepancy doesn't seem too large, but actual chance is certainly less.
But to illustrate that point better, let's consider 23 trials (6.9 seconds):
actual chance = 1 - [(23Choose0)*0.045^0*(1-0.045)^23] = 1 - [1*1*0.955^23] = 0.653 chance
projected chance = 0.15*6.9 = 1.035 ===> supposedly over 100% chance. impossible.
The difference is obvious.
<i>What we're interested in is "the chance of at least 1 success", given a number of trials. This can be re-expressed as the chance of there <b>not</b> being 'zero successes'. (1 - chance of zero successes) which is what I've used above.</i>
Needless to say, there is a <b>far</b> greater likelihood that you'll die before you get put out.
There is also another problem with the method used, because for example, you could set kStopFireProbability to 1.5 (150%, a pretty much impossible value in terms of probability), but that would still make the chance per trial 0.45, or 45%.
What I (personally) think should happen, is that stopFireChance should simply be kStopFireProbability, independent of the update time; and you can have kStopFireProbability whatever is best for balance.
Perhaps the burn duration should be capped (~5 seconds max?) so the BBQ does not go on for excessive lengths of time.
Also note that the Gorge's healspray is designed to put out flames:
<!--quoteo(post=1823338:date=Jan 12 2011, 03:08 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 12 2011, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing to consider though is that gorge spray is supposed to put out flames.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->//SpitSpray.lua
function SpitSpray:HealEntities(player)
if isHealPlayer then
// Put out entities on fire
targetEntity:SetGameEffectMask(kGameEffect.OnFire, false)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I expect that the proper volumetric behaviour, once implemented, will do wonders to address the flamethrower's balance issues, because it won't be capable of precision tracking any more. It'd implicitly fix going through walls, too.
So we can have weapons specialized by 2 factors: range and target.
SG: short range, units
HMG: medium range, units
GL: long range, structures
Flames: medium range, structures
So flames right now is too good against units. It should be a specialty weapon. Maybe it should cut the rate of fire of hydras, whips, and crags when they are burning, to make it a truly short-medium range structure weapon and increase tactical gameplay. For the hive, healing can be decreased when it is burning. But, it shouldn't do too much damage. I also don't like the luck aspect of flamethrower damage, or that units burn so much for after damage, it totally defeats hit and run tactics for aliens, which is the only thing they do. It could be that flames are a damage multiplier against structures, so that they increase damage against targets on fire, but doesn't do much damage itself. It could also be changed so that you need to do a certain minimum amount of "stack damage" with it before targets totally light on fire and take the damage. As it is you just tap someone and they're screaming in flaming terror even if you didn't stack much damage.
But actually in 161 I feel like the shotgun is extremely effective, and I sometimes choose it over flames. I've been blasting fades left and right. Only takes a couple shots. And skulks take 1.
I like Harimau's ideas too, in addition to different structure/unit flaming duration, you could also have different time to ignition between players and structures. Like hives would take an entire clip to ignite. But then they BURN. You almost have to do this just because of how insane the hive goes when it's burning. Otherwise it's a little <!--coloro:magenta--><span style="color:magenta"><!--/coloro-->drama queen<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> / emo.
I too agree that maybe the flamethrower shouold have a specific time of burn rather than chance. And perhaps make the flamethrower do direct damage the first X seconds versus any target and after X seconds the target lights on fire (hive should take longer than skulks). Could improve it, just an idea. Basically the way I see the flamethrower in game is - it should be a good seige weapon and do good damage versus light targets (ie skulks). I am not sure, but I dont think the gorge is able to put out the fire presently, but this ability would give the gorge another big job to do, which is good.
I too have ran away from flmaethrowers and died sitting on the hive 5 seconds later. I think there should be a way to put out the flames when you can run away to safety; gorge should be one way, but maybe something else too? Like adding water or going out into space for a short moment (idk jsut an idea).
So, if this is true, given that the Onos isn't in the game yet, is it really appropriate to freak out about the flamethrower being OP, if the counter isn't available?
My understanding was that the flamethrower was supposed to be used to clear out dynamic infestation and alien buildings.
Anyways here is my idea for balance of the flamethrower:
1. Make sure the burning damage over time does not stack from multiple flamethrower attackers.
2. Greatly reduce the damage flamethrower does directly to armor and if the target has armor remaining, greatly reduce the direct damage done to health (but keep the same damage over time regardless).
What this does:
Having a flamethrower or two in a late game push is essential to burn through the Hydras and push back dynamic infestation, plus managing to light a lot of aliens on fire will add a good damage over time advantage to the marine push, and make it take longer for fleeing aliens to heal and attack again (if they survive the DOT that is).
Skulks will still get roasted by the flamethrower due to their small amount of armor. Lerks with a bit more armor will be able to withstand the caress of the flames for a bit longer as they have 3X the armor of skulks, and are usually found outside of the range of the flamethrowers anyways. Larger and more heavily armored aliens will be substantially more resistant to the flamethrower, meaning flamethrower spam isn't an option as a fade with its oodles of armor can take the heat a long time, making flamethrowers ineffective against them; even more so for the onos.
The ideal (and what my propositions are aiming for) is to have a group of marines with standard weapons (shotguns, machine guns, etc) accompanied by a couple flamethrowers for pushing power, but in a way such that adding tonnes of flamethrowers to the assault will not increase the pushing power.
So basically what I am saying is that the flamethrower should be more specialized to killing buildings, lightly armored aliens, and dynamic infestation as well as providing an extra advantage to the marine team with it's damage over time effect.
Thoughts?
--
No_Eggs
I think UW's current plan is fine, and the illusion of it being unbalanced is only caused by bugs and the fact that the alien team is incomplete
edit - also stop signing your posts, people can already see your user name to the left of your post
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/endothermic_slime" target="_blank">Endothermic Slime</a>
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/endothermic_slime" target="_blank">Endothermic Slime</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how is it possible for you to make an informed balance suggestion before the alien team is even complete?
My understanding was that the flamethrower was supposed to be used to clear out dynamic infestation and alien buildings.
Anyways here is my idea for balance of the flamethrower:
1. Make sure the burning damage over time does not stack from multiple flamethrower attackers.
2. Greatly reduce the damage flamethrower does directly to armor and if the target has armor remaining, greatly reduce the direct damage done to health (but keep the same damage over time regardless).
What this does:
Having a flamethrower or two in a late game push is essential to burn through the Hydras and push back dynamic infestation, plus managing to light a lot of aliens on fire will add a good damage over time advantage to the marine push, and make it take longer for fleeing aliens to heal and attack again (if they survive the DOT that is).
Skulks will still get roasted by the flamethrower due to their small amount of armor. Lerks with a bit more armor will be able to withstand the caress of the flames for a bit longer as they have 3X the armor of skulks, and are usually found outside of the range of the flamethrowers anyways. Larger and more heavily armored aliens will be substantially more resistant to the flamethrower, meaning flamethrower spam isn't an option as a fade with its oodles of armor can take the heat a long time, making flamethrowers ineffective against them; even more so for the onos.
The ideal (and what my propositions are aiming for) is to have a group of marines with standard weapons (shotguns, machine guns, etc) accompanied by a couple flamethrowers for pushing power, but in a way such that adding tonnes of flamethrowers to the assault will not increase the pushing power.
So basically what I am saying is that the flamethrower should be more specialized to killing buildings, lightly armored aliens, and dynamic infestation as well as providing an extra advantage to the marine team with it's damage over time effect.
Thoughts?
--
No_Eggs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a good idea. If you make the flamethrower damage-type similar to "Light" so 4 health damage is blocked per point of armour, or give it its own damage type with a higher health-per-armour, but bonus damage against structures. It would also make it pretty much ineffective against an Onos with its 600 armour (hitpoints = 700+600*healthperarmor).
I'm also pretty keen on fixed burn durations: higher for structures and lower for players, but also, fixed ignition durations: higher for structures and lower for players. Maybe you could have burning a % of maxhp.
Though it became even more overpowered, I believe that the new spin on its function could be very beneficial to the game (When you're on fire, your energy does not regenerate). My thoughts are to decrease damage versus players (must have!) and continue on with the tweaking as mentioned above.
All in all, this might be a good niche for flamethrowers versus players.
1.still blinds you
2.still goes through walls
3. easily wave this weapon at any direction, damage over time does the rest
4.insane range
5. aliens have no defense against this at all
currently this weapon consumes fades energy, making the fade unstable to blink. Not only blink already slow process, you're gimping it further more? makes no sense at all.
having to constantly selecting an area to jump to, double-clicking, and each blink you're split of second blinded and keep in mind you must do this WHILE you're in combat!!!! - is such BAD combo its not even funny. fades end up chasing their targets on FOOT! at current state they will NEVER catch moving target, which is the most important part of blink, catching your target!
However, I'd like to see the burn effect to be hard capped at something like 5s instead of a random value.